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Bush okayed domestic spying without warrants

Bush Administration NSA Domestic Spying Post-9/11

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#41 Cardie

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 06:20 AM

But that's a false dichotomy, because there is a judge standing by whose primary responsibility is to review these requests for secret domestic wiretaps.  There's even a provision that in a perceived emergency permission can be granted retroactively.  Only once in the history of this court oversight of requests has one ever been turned down.  Yet apparently thirty times executive orders were issued and they were never submitted for court review.

The president says that they were reviewed by the AG and by his personal council, but these folks all serve at his pleasure.  Congressional leaders were told, but they are bound by law never to reveal such classified information. or bring the matter before Congress if they are concerned.  So the fact was not that there was domestic wiretapping being done but that it was not subject to checks and balances outside the executive branch.

So this tells me that there is either an arrogance of power or that these wiretaps wouldn't pass the imminent danger test and might have involved spying on political opponents or antiwar activists rather than on suspected Al-Qaida members.

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#42 Spectacles

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 07:05 AM

Quote

Chakotay: Just as a pot-stir - how would folks feel if another atrocity had been committed on US soil, and the intelligence agencies had had suspicions about the perpetrators but were prevented from collecting clear evidence to help stop it because they weren't allowed to phonetap and so on?

Well, like Cardie said, plenty of legal means exist to allow for wiretapping, email snooping, etc. and for doing so in a timely (real fast) manner. That's why this warrantless snooping is baffling to me.

Quote

Cardie: So this tells me that there is either an arrogance of power or that these wiretaps wouldn't pass the imminent danger test and might have involved spying on political opponents or antiwar activists rather than on suspected Al-Qaida members.

That's my worry, too.
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#43 Hibblette

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 10:54 AM

Isn't it interesting how a Republican is the one that has been the loudest on the Senate floor about this.

See-Rove's bunch knows that Democrats are their enemies but what about those guys that are Repubs that are not standing by these arrogant, despotic bunch of thugs?  Guys like Arlen.  

In the case of the Quakers-well they've been a problem going back to Colonial days.  They would take care of the Indians and make sure they were fed and their wounded cared for.  So you see they've always worked against the System.

By the way I'm descended from some of those Quakers and I loooove Oatmeal. :love:
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#44 MuseZack

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 11:58 AM

Just to reiterate.  FISA, the law that lets government officials do this kind of wiretapping legally, is incredibly broadly written.  It provides a secret court where they can go get permission to do a wiretap, a court which has rejected requests a total of four times in 25 years.  What's more, if for some reason the court isn't in session and you need a wiretap RIGHT NOW, you can legally do it as long as 72 hours as long as you then go to the court and get them to retroactively approve it.

So there's no reason whatsoever not to work through the FISA court, other than a desire to assert (via legal advisors John Yoo and Albert Gonzales) that in time of war, the President can go whatever the heck he wants.  It's the Judge Dredd approach to the presidency-- I Am The Law.
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#45 DWF

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 12:53 PM

MuseZack, on Dec 18 2005, 11:58 AM, said:

Just to reiterate.  FISA, the law that lets government officials do this kind of wiretapping legally, is incredibly broadly written.  It provides a secret court where they can go get permission to do a wiretap, a court which has rejected requests a total of four times in 25 years.  What's more, if for some reason the court isn't in session and you need a wiretap RIGHT NOW, you can legally do it as long as 72 hours as long as you then go to the court and get them to retroactively approve it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



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#46 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 03:01 PM

We really need more information on this one since it just broke.

FISA AFAIK only protects people who are US citizens or foreign citizens who are inside the country with a green card for permanent residence.  If you are in the United States under a visa then you have no protection under FISA.  FISA allows observation without warrants for people who are here without citizenship or green cards. Therefore, the only way to prove the law is broken is to prove Bush ordered the NSA to spy on someone with a green card or who was a citizen.  

It is important to remember most AQ assets enter the country under a Student visa so they have no FISA protection.  Until the Congress does some digging into whop was spied on the charges that the law was broken is speculation.  What I see right now is a lot of knee-jerk reactions on both sides when we have no facts.  If the NSA was spying on US citizens or people with green cards without warrants then someone needs to get into serious trouble.  That has not been proven yet.  

It makes it all the worse when sources like the Times choose to blur the definition of whom the NSA is spying on by stating Americans and persons in the US.  If they were spying on US citizens then they should say as much rather than being vague to add in more hype.  

That said I tend to think the FBI rather than the NSA should carry out any domestic surveillance.
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#47 waterpanther

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 03:20 PM

Quote

It is important to remember most AQ assets enter the country under a Student visa so they have no FISA protection

And they head straight for Quaker meeting houses. . ..
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#48 Norville

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 04:15 PM

Hibblette said:

In the case of the Quakers-well they've been a problem going back to Colonial days. They would take care of the Indians and make sure they were fed and their wounded cared for. So you see they've always worked against the System.

Oh, I know that Quakers have always been considered "problems", and I embrace that. ;) If you've got a problem with people trying to work for peace, then of course you'd hate 'em and call them a seditious threat. It's just that they're *not* physical threats -- psychological threats, just possibly, if someone learns from their example and acts contrary to the war-supporting majority.

Hibblette said:

By the way I'm descended from some of those Quakers and I loooove Oatmeal.

:hehe: Same here. ;)

waterpanther said:

Quote

It is important to remember most AQ assets enter the country under a Student visa so they have no FISA protection
And they head straight for Quaker meeting houses. . ..

Right, I can see that. Al Qaeda would really work with Quakers (the infidel!), and Quakers would help them. You bet. :rolleyes:

BTW, I think I'm glad that I gave up contact with a certain hysterical overseas friend who liked to rant in e-mail about the Bush government. I thought that was just a bit dangerous of him to keep going on about it, and a way to get himself monitored, but that's apparently just what he wanted. However, it wasn't what *I* wanted. Cowardly of me, I'm sure...
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#49 waterpanther

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 04:48 PM

The original NYT story specifies that U. S. citizens were illegally surveilled.  It also states that there were "hundreds, perhaps thousands" of the wiretaps.  Now, if there are "hundreds, perhaps thousands" of al-Qaida "assets" in the US on student visas, who the hell is minding the AQ store in Iraq?  We know that Zarqawi can apparently grow new limbs every time one gets blown off, even rise from the dead.  Maybe he can split himself off like an amoeba, too?

Add lying to the long, long list of things George II isn't very good at.
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#50 Godeskian

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 04:53 PM

waterpanther, on Dec 18 2005, 10:48 PM, said:

Add lying to the long, long list of things George II isn't very good at.

and for which he will no doubt never, ever be called to acount for

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#51 Spectacles

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 04:54 PM

I just sent an email to a friend in England. I wished her and the NSA monitor who intercepted the email a happy holiday.  :)
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#52 waterpanther

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 04:58 PM

The original NYT story specifies that U. S. citizens were illegally surveilled.  It also states that there were "hundreds, perhaps thousands" of the wiretaps.  Now, if there are "hundreds, perhaps thousands" of al-Qaida "assets" in the US on student visas, who the hell is minding the AQ store in Iraq?  We know that Zarqawi can apparently grow new limbs every time one gets blown off, even rise from the dead.  Maybe he can split himself off like an amoeba, too?

Add lying to the long, long list of things George II isn't very good at.

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Edited by waterpanther, 18 December 2005 - 05:03 PM.

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#53 Hibblette

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 05:49 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Dec 18 2005, 03:01 PM, said:

We really need more information on this one since it just broke.

FISA AFAIK only protects people who are US citizens or foreign citizens who are inside the country with a green card for permanent residence.  If you are in the United States under a visa then you have no protection under FISA.  FISA allows observation without warrants for people who are here without citizenship or green cards. Therefore, the only way to prove the law is broken is to prove Bush ordered the NSA to spy on someone with a green card or who was a citizen. 

It is important to remember most AQ assets enter the country under a Student visa so they have no FISA protection.  Until the Congress does some digging into whop was spied on the charges that the law was broken is speculation.  What I see right now is a lot of knee-jerk reactions on both sides when we have no facts.  If the NSA was spying on US citizens or people with green cards without warrants then someone needs to get into serious trouble.  That has not been proven yet. 

It makes it all the worse when sources like the Times choose to blur the definition of whom the NSA is spying on by stating Americans and persons in the US.  If they were spying on US citizens then they should say as much rather than being vague to add in more hype. 

That said I tend to think the FBI rather than the NSA should carry out any domestic surveillance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


So while the Prez is defending this which he has made public statements in defense of what is happening then why isn't he making this clear?  Would clear the whole thing up wouldn't it.

Instead Dubya is  taking the stand of "I'm the president I can do whatever I want."
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#54 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 09:12 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Dec 18 2005, 03:01 PM, said:

We really need more information on this one since it just broke.

FISA AFAIK only protects people who are US citizens or foreign citizens who are inside the country with a green card for permanent residence.  If you are in the United States under a visa then you have no protection under FISA.  FISA allows observation without warrants for people who are here without citizenship or green cards. Therefore, the only way to prove the law is broken is to prove Bush ordered the NSA to spy on someone with a green card or who was a citizen. 

It is important to remember most AQ assets enter the country under a Student visa so they have no FISA protection.  Until the Congress does some digging into whop was spied on the charges that the law was broken is speculation.  What I see right now is a lot of knee-jerk reactions on both sides when we have no facts.  If the NSA was spying on US citizens or people with green cards without warrants then someone needs to get into serious trouble.  That has not been proven yet. 

It makes it all the worse when sources like the Times choose to blur the definition of whom the NSA is spying on by stating Americans and persons in the US.  If they were spying on US citizens then they should say as much rather than being vague to add in more hype. 

That said I tend to think the FBI rather than the NSA should carry out any domestic surveillance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


But non-US Cit's and legal res's are protected under FISA, student visa's would not protect you under FISA and so the gov't wouldn't NEED a warrant to tap your phones, the CIA could tap you as a "Foreign National" and everything is fine, no FISA issue.

The ONLY way this could be a FISA issue is if they were tapping the lines of US Cit's or Legal Res's - and even that is allowed, you just have to go to the court within 72 hours to get the warrant.

Like several posters have already specualted, dollars to doughnuts it turns out that not all the folks being tapped are suspected of being AQ terrorists - in fact I'll bet that most of the illegal taps were for political reasons and for persoanl vengance/sabotage reasons and to keep track of "agitators"!

It's as if Nixon, McCarthy and Stalin all had a kid together - and he's running the country.
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#55 Hibblette

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 10:36 PM

Quote

It's as if Nixon, McCarthy and Stalin all had a kid together - and he's running the country.

Wasn't that an episode of Lexx?

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#56 JchaosRS

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 10:41 PM

Cardie, on Dec 16 2005, 11:38 PM, said:

NBC had a report on a secret Pentagon database which identified a Quaker meeting house as a threat to US troops.  In that Quakers are pacifists, I wouldn't classify them as pro-military, but a threat?!?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When I read that I laughed so hard I fell out of my chair. The Quakers!  :lol:
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#57 Cait

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 10:59 PM

Gefiltefishmon, on Dec 18 2005, 06:12 PM, said:

Like several posters have already specualted, dollars to doughnuts it turns out that not all the folks being tapped are suspected of being AQ terrorists - in fact I'll bet that most of the illegal taps were for political reasons and for persoanl vengance/sabotage reasons and to keep track of "agitators"!

It's as if Nixon, McCarthy and Stalin all had a kid together - and he's running the country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'd bet the same thing.  All that power to tap/bug/spy; it's not likely he/they didn't bug people who might be a threat to staying in power, his legacy [such as it is], his agenda, agitators, etc.  

The most telling thing, is that since the Executive Branch can get warrants retroactively, there's no reason not to 'get' them, unless as someone else pointed out, they were illegal and a judge wouldn't sign off on them.

It'll be interesting to see what comes out of the White House [or elsewhere] to bury this story.

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#58 waterpanther

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 11:09 PM

Quote

It'll be interesting to see what comes out of the White House [or elsewhere] to bury this story.

Zarqawi's about to die.  Again.
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#59 Lin731

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 01:12 PM

Quote

I'd bet the same thing. All that power to tap/bug/spy; it's not likely he/they didn't bug people who might be a threat to staying in power, his legacy [such as it is], his agenda, agitators, etc.


That would be my bet and during his reelection run I read many articles on citizens being arrested for signs they carried, people booted out of campaign events (although they weren't creating a disturbance), Secret Service with clipboards attempting to collect names of protestors at varying events. I just hope and pray American's have smartened up to what they reelected and start looking past BS rhetoric and faux flag waving when the next elections occur. Thes folks are totally out of control.
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#60 G1223

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 03:04 PM

I heard something about this today. Did you know that Bush informed congress and Congress signed off on this. Odd how people seem to forget when they can use anything they can to attack the president.
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