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U.S. May Strike at Iran

Middle East Iran Nuclear Capability US Strike

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#61 tennyson

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 08:57 PM

Waterpanther, I think he was saying all Muslims of a certain subgrouping are like X rather than all Muslims are X. So an analogy that would better pattern with what he said would be something like all Baptists or X or all Episcopalians are X, still untrue but more closely matching what was said in terms of the content of the original postings. (Note this is not intended as a defense of anything but rather as a clarification to further meaningful communication. This is not intended as an endorsement of views expressed in either person's postings.)
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

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#62 Hibblette

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 09:12 PM

Uhm-Japan was pretty much under control-Dear Macs control.

And don't think that man did not have it all planned out.  He did.  He was a true student of the Orient and their culture he knew exactly how to reach them.  

But MacArthur was a genius. Nobody in this administration is.  All they know how to do is lie and use the camera's to make things look good.

In regards to Germany.  European nations are not that hard to turn towards Democracy.  Democracy actually was born in Europe.  

Plus we did not go into WWII to bring Democracy to these two nations.  They were trying to shove their political agendas on the world.

And...The USA was not alone.
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#63 G1223

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 09:44 PM

View PostMuseZack, on Jan 2 2006, 02:07 PM, said:

And once again, I have to say I find rather distasteful the nearly gleeful speculation about wiping an entire civilization off the map among our amateur Tom Clancys and armchair Donald Rumsfelds.  It both blithely dismisses the deaths of tens of millions and displays an appalling ignorance of the global consequences of such a conflagration.

So Zack I gather that the 10 to 15 million dead would be better if they were Americans. I am just in favor of destroying their plant and leave them with nothing to replace it.  Or if we piss around long enough  we simply tell them "Now you have it. Use it and we destroy your country test them and we take out the plant where they come from."

My glee comes from the fact this threat needs to be hit and hit hard. I do not think we need to occuply the place but I do think it's Nuclear abilty needs to cut off at the balls.
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#64 tennyson

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 10:29 PM

And...The USA was not alone.[quote]

The US isn't alone. If you are just refering to what this article says then it was consdulting with all of NATO, in other words Greece, Turkey, the UK, Germany, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Canada, Iceland, Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxemburg, Poland, Italy, The Czech and Slovak republics, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania with France still outside the unified command structure. And the European Union led by France and Germany has been trying to negotiate with Iran about thier nuclear program just as long as the US has.
If you are talking about Afghanistan then Article 5 of the NATO charter was invoked for that and a unified NATO force has been on regular rotation with the American forces in the region that has included troops from Germany, the Netherlands, Canada and the UK not to mention Thailand.
As for Iraq I've detailed and detailed the nations and thier troop commitments so I don't see that I need to say much more on that other than see my previous posts on that. The UK is still there, Australia is still there, Poland is still there,Japan and South Korea are still there. I don't see with all those nations involved you can call the US alone.
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#65 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 10:43 PM

View Postwaterpanther, on Jan 2 2006, 06:37 PM, said:

LC, let's try this on for size. You're a Christian. Obviously, therefore, you:

hate gay people and think they should be publicly executed;

believe women to be inferior to men intellectually and spiritually;

want to see Christianity established as the official religion of the United States;

want to make the ten commandments the official law of the United States;

believe in beating children into submission and executing them if that does't work;

hate Jews;

are a racist;

and that's just for starters.

Now, I hope you're outraged at this point because I equally hope that none of the above is true about you. But, see, you're a Christian, and Christians all go back to the same roots, that rabbi from Nazareth. And Christians have a history of conversion by the sword from the early fourth century onward, and a history of pogroms against Jews almost as long. They have a history, in the Americas and in Africa, of destroying cultures that won't convert (or at least, trying to) and of practicing and justifying slavery. Some Christians still openly espouse the above beliefs today. Therefore, since you're a Christian, and Christians are all related, you must agree with them.

No?

But, see, that's pretty much the line of reasoning you're using to lump Muslim groups together. What's that bit about doing unto others as you'd like them to do to you?


With all due respect, WP, I'm only gonna say two things to this post:

1.) I have clarified my opinions to include on "radical" Muslims.  Go back up and look.  

2.) I have an uncle who's homosexual and I love him dearly; he's one of the sweetest men I know and he's HIV+.  

The rest I refuse address b/c you complain about paintin' with a broad brush; you just did it, though.

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#66 waterpanther

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 10:56 PM

I'm not asking you to address any of the points, LC, and in fact I haven't seen anything that indicates you hold any of these views.  What I'm trying to convey here is that it would be unjust to lump you in with people who are unlike you--and even if you've limited yourself to so-called "radical" Muslims, you've painted some very different groups with the same broad brush.

If this post stung a little, then I think I've made my point.
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#67 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 11:12 PM

View Postwaterpanther, on Jan 2 2006, 09:56 PM, said:

I'm not asking you to address any of the points, LC, and in fact I haven't seen anything that indicates you hold any of these views. What I'm trying to convey here is that it would be unjust to lump you in with people who are unlike you--and even if you've limited yourself to so-called "radical" Muslims, you've painted some very different groups with the same broad brush.

If this post stung a little, then I think I've made my point.


You're post was insultin'.  That's all

ETA: I typically respect your postin' and point of view; low-blows I don't cotton to.

Edited by Lost Cause, 02 January 2006 - 11:12 PM.

Rose: [disgusted] Oh, look at what the cat dragged in: "The Oncoming Storm."

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#68 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 12:36 AM

View Posttennyson, on Jan 2 2006, 07:57 PM, said:

Waterpanther, I think he was saying all Muslims of a certain subgrouping are like X rather than all Muslims are X. So an analogy that would better pattern with what he said would be something like all Baptists or X or all Episcopalians are X, still untrue but more closely matching what was said in terms of the content of the original postings. (Note this is not intended as a defense of anything but rather as a clarification to further meaningful communication. This is not intended as an endorsement of views expressed in either person's postings.)


Thank you, tennyson.  It's nice to see that someone was readin' my posts, not readin' somethin' into them.

Now that my S'n temper has settled, I'll address item by item things that WP has decided I believe based on bein' a Christian.  (I'll use "Xn" as an abbriv for Christian in the following.)

Waterpanther said:

LC, let's try this on for size. You're a Christian. Obviously, therefore, you:

hate gay people and think they should be publicly executed;

I've already responded to some degree about this.  See that post.  I believe that homosexuality is a sin, just as lyin's a sin.  There all the same to me, no vanilla or chocolate flavors in there.  As to the "public execution," you can't be serious.  Or are you just that uninformed about Xn beliefs?



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believe women to be inferior to men intellectually and spiritually;

Married me a fine woman's who's a hell of alot smarter than me--and that's a fact.  She can carry on conversations with the best of them and even best them in the process.  Matter of factly, she'll be pullin' in the bulk of our income once she finishes her double degree program.  

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want to see Christianity established as the official religion of the United States;

I would like to see Xnity be respected as one of the pillars for the foundin' of this country, considerin' it was a country that was majority Xn at one time and that faith dictated the Founder's belief in "certain inalienable" rights.  I also respect their reason for not establishin' a state religion--it led to massive oppression and wars in Europe since the mid-1500's.

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want to make the ten commandments the official law of the United States;

The Ten Commandments were one of the earliest codified forms of law that our country was based on.  Look at 'em.  There's actually a few of them already codified in most law codes in the 50 states.  "You shall not kill. . .steal. . .bear false witness."  A little late to complain 'bout 'em bein' incorporated.  They already were.

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believe in beating children into submission and executing them if that does't work;

My father was one child who escaped a wife-beatin', boozin', child-molestin' father.  I've heard the horror stories.  He became a S'n Baptist preacher.  He's a highly educated man holdin' a DMin (a PhD level degree from a seminary).  He never raised a hand in anger to me.  He gave me the belt when I needed it (and there was one time I didn't; my sister got us both in trouble and my dad later apologized for that whoopin').  I have no children.  Only God knows if I will.  

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hate Jews;


Let me start with most ludicrous part of this--JESUS WAS A JEW!

How can I reasonably hate the root from which my Savior sprang?

If I do, then why did I write the followin':

Lost Cause said:

The Israelis have proven over and over again they will go to whatever lengths necessary to protect their people. Ever since the Holocaust, I can't blame the Jews for having the "Kill 'em all; let God sort 'em out," attitude.

One of my favorite books, it's a small one mind ya, is "90 Minutes at Entebbe." Excellently written and told. Without a doubt probably the most amazing spec op action ever conceived and executed, IMHO. The Israelis proved that when it comes to protectin' their own, they'll even do the impossible. That makes 'em mighty, to tell the truth.

'Ccordin' to your statement of my beliefs, I shouldn't agree with the Jews on how to handle this, think that the Holocaust was a hoax (and you should read my views on that cock-eyed belief in the thread about what the Iranian president said about the the Holocaust bein a hoax), and I shouldn't admire the Israelis' handlin' of the Entebbe crisis.  I should be rootin' for the terrorist and "Idiot" Amin the whole way in that only to be discouraged.  In fact, I personally believe in Israel's right to exist.  Two of my favorite books are "Exodus" and "Mila 18," by the Jewish author Leon Uris.  I am a Zionist b/c of those books.  By your thinkin', I shouldn't be.  

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are a racist;

As a Southerner, that's hard to deal with.  I'm not proud of my heritage at times, but it's my heritage.  I have to live with it.  But, some of my best friends have been black, hispanic, or Catholic.  One of my best friends right now is a Hispanic Catholic band teacher.  

Why did I respond to your ludicrous postin' after all?  To tell you two things:

1.) You need to do some serious readin' about Xn beliefs and not assume you know everything about Xns.  

2.)  Make sure you know your target 'fore you strike.  You don't know me.  Now you know somethin'.  Try to stickin' to arguin' my points, not arguin' my beliefs.  

Now, any warnin's comin', I deserve.  I will graciously accept 'em aforehand, if there are any.

ETA:  Great line from "A Walk in the Clouds":
"Just because I talk with an accent, doesn't mean I think with an accent."

Edited by Lost Cause, 03 January 2006 - 12:42 AM.

Rose: [disgusted] Oh, look at what the cat dragged in: "The Oncoming Storm."

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Formerly Known as "Lost Cause."


#69 waterpanther

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 08:10 AM

LC-- Please read the following again:

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I'm not asking you to address any of the points, LC, and in fact I haven't seen anything that indicates you hold any of these views. What I'm trying to convey here is that it would be unjust to lump you in with people who are unlike you--and even if you've limited yourself to so-called "radical" Muslims, you've painted some very different groups with the same broad brush.

If this post stung a little, then I think I've made my point.

Again:  I simply applied to Christianity the kind of general-to-specific reasoning you've applied to "radical Islam."  Obviously you think that's unjust where Christianity is concerned.  I suggest that it's equally unjust where Islam is concerned, even "radical" Islam.

As far as

Quote

You need to do some serious readin' about Xn beliefs and not assume you know everything about Xns.

goes, I had eight years of Catholic education, elementary through high school, and spent several years as a an administrator for the Episcopal Church.  Unfortunately, however,  there areChristians who do believe each an every one of the points in my previous post--"radical" Christians, if you like, just as there are members of other faiths that are off the deep end.  You don't like being lumped in with them.  Good.  My point, again,  is that it's just as unjust to lump members of other faiths together based on the worst you believe about some of them.
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#70 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 09:19 AM

View PostHibblette, on Jan 3 2006, 02:12 AM, said:

Uhm-Japan was pretty much under control-Dear Macs control.

And don't think that man did not have it all planned out.  He did.  He was a true student of the Orient and their culture he knew exactly how to reach them.  

But MacArthur was a genius. Nobody in this administration is.  All they know how to do is lie and use the camera's to make things look good.

Really? What do you think of MacArthur abandoning thousands of American soldiers to the tender mercies of the Japanese? What about wanting to start WW3 by using nuclear weapons against North Korea?

MacArthur proved a competent general, but he was no genius.

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In regards to Germany.  European nations are not that hard to turn towards Democracy.  Democracy actually was born in Europe.

It took two world wars and millions of deaths before Germany became a stable democracy- and even then it was divided in half for some ~50 years. I'd be hard pushed to call that 'easy'.
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#71 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 10:27 AM

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Hibblette: But MacArthur was a genius. Nobody in this administration is. All they know how to do is lie and use the camera's to make things look good.
MacArthur was an ok tactician with a propensity for making high-risk choices that paid off.  He just had a lot of luck on his side and it came into play when he made his big risks.  Dugout Doug was the one who ordered the Bonus Army to be cleared out of Washington DC.  To clear out a group of protesting veterans he called in tanks and used troops who had fixed bayonets.  Then President Hoover ordered Dugout Doug to back off from cleaning the main encampment twice.  MacArthur ignored those orders and sent the Army into the main camp because he said he didn’t want to be bothered.  This action appalled MacArthur’s own aide a young Dwight D. Eisenhower.  

The moving on in MacArthur’s career you have his incompetent defense of the Philippines.  He failed to stock proper supplies in Bataan and Corregidor despite the fact that long terms plans stated that the Army would retreat there and make its stand from there.  MacArthur through his own ego assumed that he could stop the Japanese on the beaches and didn’t retreat until it was too late to stock sufficient supplies.  So because of MacArthur the defensive forces were forced to fight along battle plagued by starvation and lack of medicine.  MacArthur sat on Corregidor in relative comfort earning the name Dugout Doug among his troops until he was evacuated.

Then to top it all off General Wainwright took command after MacArthur was gone and fought a brave defense.  Wainwright was the type of general who would go to the front and was respected by his men unlike MacArthur.  Wainwright was forced to surrender and MacArthur rewarded him by writing a letter stating he was a coward, a drunk, and had no leadership skills so he shouldn’t get the Medal of Honor.  MacArthur was afraid that Wainwright’s competent defense would steal his limelight.  

Then you have the whole issue of MacArthur once again going way over the line and his attempt to start a nuclear war in Korea.  He then tried to go around Truman by issuing dire statements to the press in an attempt to gain the upper hand on Truman.  MacArthur had gone totally off the deep end at this point.  MacArthur was the case of a man who was driven by his own immense ego to do anything to further his own image and achieve his goals.  He didn’t care about the chain of command or civilian oversight of the military when it got in his way.
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#72 Hibblette

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:04 AM

Not going to debate over MacArthur and all of the other politics that played into the Pacific theatre.  Case of opinion.

And Tennyson in regards to us not being alone-other then Britain-do you really think these others, case in point France and Germany, will back this?  They didn't the going into Iraq.

You can take out everything around these people and all you will do will leave survivors who will then start planning what they are going to do.  Survive to begin with and then revenge.  And since they don't have massive multi-strength armies they will go to the individual spirit of those that follow them on the revenge path.  They will gladly lay their life down for the cause.

And you know what?  Causes have been known to take major Powers down or at least defeat them.  Remember the American Revolution.

I am not saying we should just lay down and take this from these idiots.  But...going in with brute strength is not going to help the situation.  We are the civilized ones (in my opinion), we are (supposedly) the good Christian lot that we are.  But we are not idiots-or at least we weren't in the 90's.  WE did have inspectors that were checking these things, we did take action when needed and the end results have been proven to have worked.  But invasion and brute force is not working.  

We have taken every forward step that the UN was making and wiped it out.  We now have more terrorist growing in Iraq.  And from what I understand because we have abandoned Afghanistan they are slipping right back into what they were before 9/11.
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#73 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:35 AM

View PostHibblette, on Jan 3 2006, 04:04 PM, said:

Not going to debate over MacArthur and all of the other politics that played into the Pacific theatre.  Case of opinion.

Why bring it up then?

Quote

And you know what?  Causes have been known to take major Powers down or at least defeat them.  Remember the American Revolution.

The American Revolution would not have succeeded without France. French money, guns, troops and ships were absolutely critical to the historical outcome of the war.
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#74 G1223

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:42 AM

Also we had this big thing called the Atlantic between us and Britian. Which slowed communication between the troops in the field and high command in London.  

The fight Washington was hoping for was a long war and that the other European nations might take the chance and see England as distracted and start a conflict with them as to make the colonies a second or even third front and eventully force England to the table so they could make a seperate peace.

Try doing the same thing with Ireland. There would have been a lot of dead Irishmen. The English would as they proved kept Ireland under their foot for nearly 200 more years.
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#75 darthsikle

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:48 AM

Hopefully, Syria will be right Iran
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#76 Hibblette

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 12:29 PM

View PostTalkie Toaster, on Jan 3 2006, 10:35 AM, said:

View PostHibblette, on Jan 3 2006, 04:04 PM, said:

Not going to debate over MacArthur and all of the other politics that played into the Pacific theatre.  Case of opinion.

Why bring it up then?

Quote

And you know what?  Causes have been known to take major Powers down or at least defeat them.  Remember the American Revolution.

The American Revolution would not have succeeded without France. French money, guns, troops and ships were absolutely critical to the historical outcome of the war.

And so you think the terrrorist have no one helping them out?

View PostG1223, on Jan 3 2006, 10:42 AM, said:

Also we had this big thing called the Atlantic between us and Britian. Which slowed communication between the troops in the field and high command in London.  

The fight Washington was hoping for was a long war and that the other European nations might take the chance and see England as distracted and start a conflict with them as to make the colonies a second or even third front and eventully force England to the table so they could make a seperate peace.

Try doing the same thing with Ireland. There would have been a lot of dead Irishmen. The English would as they proved kept Ireland under their foot for nearly 200 more years.

The Brits were very much a part of the Colonies.  The leadership they had in the Generals were the kind of Generals that made decisions without sending off to London for the approval.  They couldn't afford to do that, not even when they were on their campaigns in Europe.  But I am not going to say those General were idiots-they weren't.  They were tried and true accomplished military men that had many battle scars from many years over.
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#77 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 12:51 PM

View PostHibblette, on Jan 3 2006, 05:29 PM, said:

And so you think the terrrorist have no one helping them out?

Not to anything like the degree that the Americans recieved during the revolutionary war. To be equivilent Coalition supply of forces in Iraq would have to be disrupted by a major naval power and significant numbers of heavily armed, professional soldiers would be in Iraq engaging Coalition forces.

Edited by Talkie Toaster, 03 January 2006 - 03:08 PM.

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#78 BklnScott

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 01:40 PM

LC, I think you're missing the point WP was making: you took a bunch of Muslim groups and lumped them all together with Al Qaeda without regard for the differences in their individual actions/philosophies...  So, to illustrate the injustice of that comparison, WP took a bunch of Christian groups and lumped them together with the Reverend Fred Phelps without regard for the differences in THEIR individual actions/philosophies.  

You (naturally) resent having your beliefs lumped in with the likes of Phelps.  So why don't you see that a patriotic Palestinian (who, perhaps, works as a doctor in a Hamas hospital, or as a math teacher in a Hamas school) would feel likewise about being lumped in with Osama bin Laden?    

Yes, he has some philosophical connection with Qaeda (in that both believe in the creation of a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital)--just as you have some philosophical connection with Phelps (both believing in Jesus Christ as lord)--but in both cases, the connection is so tenuous as to be unrevealing -- even misleading.

Do you agree?  

As for the rest of your post, I shunted it to a spin-off thread.

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#79 G1223

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 02:25 PM

View PostHibblette, on Jan 3 2006, 12:29 PM, said:

The Brits were very much a part of the Colonies.  The leadership they had in the Generals were the kind of Generals that made decisions without sending off to London for the approval.  They couldn't afford to do that, not even when they were on their campaigns in Europe.  But I am not going to say those General were idiots-they weren't.  They were tried and true accomplished military men that had many battle scars from many years over.

The time it would take for the Brits to get reenforcements from England would be nearly four or five months. Take the turn of events at Saratoga. The Brits besides having to withdraw back to Canada also had to make allowances for their wounded once they got back with them. That is if they have enough material to take care of the healthy troops. Food and other real needs.
The Army was never Englands strong arm.  It was the Navy. But this Navy had a Whole Empire to keep supplied and updated.  So The English were unable to present their full force at anyone point.  Add they pulled from certaina areas France orSpain might be able to project their power there and get a foothold in the British possession.
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#80 Hibblette

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 03:27 PM

View PostTalkie Toaster, on Jan 3 2006, 11:51 AM, said:

View PostHibblette, on Jan 3 2006, 05:29 PM, said:

And so you think the terrrorist have no one helping them out?

Not to anything like the degree that the Americans recieved during the revolutionary war.

Are you sure about that?

I'm not so sure that they don't have a huge network of those that are helping them.  That in fact is what the true problem is in the war on terrorism.  It always has been the problem.

G-I disagree with you about the British and their Army of that day and age.   There was also a little matter of having some colonist that were on their side also.

Oh and we may have fantastic communication resources in this day and age but despite all our modern conveniences and easier traveling we also have had a problem with reinforcements haven't we?  Or should we blame that on poor planning from our illustrious leaders of today?  Either way we are arrogant and pompous for thinking that brute force is the answer.

I love how this thread has migrated to this.   I simply made a comparison of the fortitude and perseverance of a people that had a cause.  And it's been a great excuse to stear away from the discussion about the USA being an invader and conqueror who shouldn't care about the lives lost in such an attack as the original post was concerned about.

My concern about all of this, Afghanistan, Iraq and now Iran is that my country has drifted away from the ideas that originally started this country.  We invaded Iraq.  There is no other way to say it.  The history books will have to say it.  It was an invasion.  An invasion that was ill planned and had no follow through.  It was just a bunch of guys who wanted to "take it down" because over ten years ago they didn't do what they were suppose to do.

Young men and women are dying because of a bunch of lies that were told.

Young men and women will die simply because of a bunch of lying politicians who for the most part none of them have ever been in harm's way.  But they certainly have no problem in putting people in harm's way.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Middle East, Iran, Nuclear Capability, US Strike

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