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U.S. May Strike at Iran

Middle East Iran Nuclear Capability US Strike

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#81 tennyson

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 05:00 PM

Hibbette, I don't know what you drew from my posts or even if you read the earlier ones but I explicitely stated multiple times that I don't want the use of force or an invasion. I've already detailed what I think would be the best way to go in my previous posts and I suggest you read them to gain an understanding of what I've been talking about. Just because I know what to do or have a good idea what will happen in certain situations doesn't mean I am advocating them. I'm not the one calling for marching into Iran that would only  be to my count  G1223 and Lost Cause in this thread. I think its a bad idea and I've said so previously in this thread. So please do not ascribe to me attitudes and advocacies that I do not share.
I was engaging you on the points you yourself brought up along with others and providing facts to backup what I'm saying. You said the US was alone and I showed you where it was not. I've also said what I think of the article and what I think it means earlier in the thread and I point you to my first posting in the thread. As I said plans have been around to invade Iran for longer than I've been alive and in my opinion this article means nothing as far as describing what the US and its allies will or will not do. Others have also described the reasons why invading would be a bad idea and I point you to thier posts.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

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#82 Hibblette

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 05:20 PM

Tennyson my last post wasn't directed at you.

But.. I inadvertently have sidetracked the conversation along with a few others.

Sorry.

In my opinion-my country, the USA, is not suppose to be a conqueror.

But right now we are trying to be and that's the problem-we're not even doing a good job at it. :(
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#83 G1223

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 05:25 PM

View Posttennyson, on Jan 3 2006, 05:00 PM, said:

I'm not the one calling for marching into Iran that would only  be to my count  G1223 and Lost Cause in this thread.


Actually I favor taking out the reactors and leave them the cleanup. I do not see it as workable to go over and take out Iran. But I do see a way to stop them from getting the bomb.
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#84 DWF

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 06:20 PM

So people are willing to attack Iran on the possibility that they migth someday in the future get a nuclear bomb, but nobody wants to invade North Korea a country we know already has the bomb?  :huh2:
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#85 tennyson

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 06:34 PM

This has also been brought up, discused and explained before as well multiple times. I refer you to the search function and previous postsings.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#86 DWF

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 06:44 PM

View Posttennyson, on Jan 3 2006, 06:34 PM, said:

This has also been brought up, discused and explained before as well multiple times. I refer you to the search function and previous postsings.

It was more of a question of how bloodthursty we are, not really question that probably should be answered.  :eh:
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#87 BklnScott

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 06:54 PM

View PostDWF, on Jan 3 2006, 06:20 PM, said:

So people are willing to attack Iran on the possibility that they migth someday in the future get a nuclear bomb, but nobody wants to invade North Korea a country we know already has the bomb?  :huh2:

Well, *yeah*.  That's the thing about the Nuclear Club: if we can, we'll do just about anything to stop a country from developing/acquiring nukes.  But if a country DOES acquire them, what they get is not war, but a seat at the table.

BTW, nuclear deterrence WORKS.  No country with nukes (save, uh-hem, one, and that was when we were the ONLY Nuclear Power) has ever used them because of the absolute certainty that they will themselves be annhilated if they do.  Mutually Assured Destruction.  At least it's good for somethin.  :)

Edited by _ph, 03 January 2006 - 11:27 PM.

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#88 Hibblette

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 07:39 PM

View PostDWF, on Jan 3 2006, 05:20 PM, said:

So people are willing to attack Iran on the possibility that they migth someday in the future get a nuclear bomb, but nobody wants to invade North Korea a country we know already has the bomb?  :huh2:

Go Figure. :blink:
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#89 G1223

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 07:48 PM

Well DWF. The reason North Korea is a touchy topic.  

First we have a unstable leader who if he got a bug in his ear that he thought told him to attack South Korea he would do it. He has shown a willingness to lie out both mouthes if it gets him something. He has also shown he is not going to keep his word.

Second attacking North Korea could very well bring in the PRC into the conflict and not on our side. Now they have only 20 ICBM that can reach the US mainland their other missles are well within range of our troops in North Korea and Japan.

Now the reason he does not attack south is he will get hit with everything we can throw at him. and his he used those weapons he would invite the US using their own  missles and we might not stop to ask the PRC for permission.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#90 DWF

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 08:02 PM

View PostG1223, on Jan 3 2006, 07:48 PM, said:

Well DWF. The reason North Korea is a touchy topic.  

First we have a unstable leader who if he got a bug in his ear that he thought told him to attack South Korea he would do it. He has shown a willingness to lie out both mouthes if it gets him something. He has also shown he is not going to keep his word.

Second attacking North Korea could very well bring in the PRC into the conflict and not on our side. Now they have only 20 ICBM that can reach the US mainland their other missles are well within range of our troops in North Korea and Japan.

Now the reason he does not attack south is he will get hit with everything we can throw at him. and his he used those weapons he would invite the US using their own  missles and we might not stop to ask the PRC for permission.

Following that line of reasoning we should wait until Iran attacks somebody before we invade them. Of course for that matter India has the bomb too and one day could decide to use it.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#91 G1223

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 08:11 PM

We have faced North Korea to try and come over that wall for 50 years. We almost went to war in the 70's because North Korea tried to tunnel time and again to get past the DMZ.

We wanting to keep Israel from getting nuked. and Yes Iran is working on missles with the range to get to Israel. Add in the bomb and Israel gets to be nuked. Or we knock out Iran's Nuclear ability in it's first steps or wait till our best allies are dead.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#92 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 10:42 PM

I wanna preface this great feast with a few words:

As you know, I have a little bit of a hair trigger. **Waits for laughter..shrugs** :confused:

Lately I've not been feelin' myself as I try to recover from bein' lazy over the holiday and keepin' my "normal" hours (which are 1000-0200, thereabouts).  Havin' to readjust to those hours before goin' back to work (at which I have to get up at 0630) is difficult on the ol' body and seems to get worse each time I do it.  Why I do it, I don't know.  That, in reality, when I started to try to get myself back on my "work" hours, prompted a headache that lasted for about 3 days.  Not a killer headache, but one of those "nag ya 'til ya drop, sides of yer head" headaches.  It may not mean much to folk, since I've only been here a few months, but I actually laid down and tried to nap b/w 1830-1930.  If I nap, I'm not feelin' too good.  Fact is, Mel found me on the couch and realized right away I wasn't feelin' myself.

So, as you can see, my mental state the past few days, while decent at first, has in fact deteriorated.  Last night about 2300 hrs when I posted last on this thread, I was at my lowest point--PERIOD.  I had taken somethin' to help me sleep, but it wasn't workin', my mind was racin' (unable to quit for the night) and I found WP's post.  

_ph, in response to somethin' ya said in the other thread about Xn Beliefs: ya wondered why I snapped and brought my uncle in the way I did?  His HIV results are only abt 1 month old.  I haven't fully come to terms with it yet.  Let's just say I'm a little emotionally raw on that spot.  I simply snapped and unloaded both barrels, unjustly, on WP.  

In truth, WP, I planned to write somethin' totally different when I posted that item by item (rather useless) post.  Instead, I unloaded the howitzers on ya.  It took the good nature of my wife, who's more adept at this kinda stuff, to make me realize I was wrong.  For that, I am sorry I hammered ya like that.  I made the first and most crucial mistake of posting--never do it in the heat of the moment.  Ya tend to regret it later.  Truth of the matter is, after I hit add reply, I found myself wantin' to take it back.  (Probably should've edited it out, if ya want the truth.  Pride got in the way; foolishly had to say my piece.)

So, that bein' said, I wanna take this moment to apologize to all involved for "derailin'" this thread and losin' my focus (and cool) when I shouldn't have.  

Now, where's that plate of crow!  I hope ya have legs.  I like dark meat.  :drool:

Rose: [disgusted] Oh, look at what the cat dragged in: "The Oncoming Storm."

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." -- John Wayne


Sometimes the best causes worth fighting for are lost causes. -- Me.

Formerly Known as "Lost Cause."


#93 waterpanther

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 10:55 PM

Not to worry.  I wasn't standing where the howitzers were aimed, anyway.  You have my profound sympathy on the necessity to return to work after the Christmas break.  When I was teaching, I was always vaguely amazed that I'd lived through the first half of the school year and not always sure in May that I'd made it through the second half.
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#94 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:20 PM

View Postwaterpanther, on Jan 3 2006, 07:10 AM, said:

My point, again, is that it's just as unjust to lump members of other faiths together based on the worst you believe about some of them.


WP, what I was gonna add last night (and probably would've been a hell of alot better) is what I'm not makin' terribly clear.  I'm workin under the assumption of the "law of thirds," as a way to sum it up.  The radical Muslims are not the moderate and secular Muslims, who have nothin' to do with the terrorism and suicide-bombin'.  There certain one responsible for these heinous acts and dispicable actions, and then there are those who are not.  

Now, I do not hesistate to believe that given the choice, most terrorist groups would love to take a swack at us.  The terrorist groups all pretty much have the same genesis--and this is in Egypt based on the philosophical writin' of Sayyid Qutb. Qutb called for the overthrow of all non-Sharia states, beginning with Egypt, and eventually the overthrow of the non-Muslim gov't as well.  Several terrorist mov'ts cropped up, each attackin' military, police, and political figures.  (One group successfully assasinated Anwar Sadat in 1981.)  Qutb's philosophy has been expounded and expanded upon since 1974 by a series of leaders and religious figures, but the most expansive form was done by Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, who not only aided in the attempt at overturnin' the secular gov't of Egypt (and was tried for his religious leadership in the 1981 plot) but came to the U.S. with his intentions of bringin' Jihad to our golden shores.  

Sayyid Qutb wrote his "treatise" Signs Along the Road in 1948.  His work gave rise to the militant groups that formed in Egypt, which eventually combined to form Islamic Jihad.  Islamic Jihad is one of the major trainin' sources for all the major terrorist groups that have operations goin' in the Middle East, be they attackin' Israel or attackin' the U.S.  But, it was Qutb who defined and shaped the philosophy that serves as the base of every jihadistic group.  He is to them as Rosenburg was to the Nazis--the philosophical heart of the intentions.  

What I've been tryin' to make clear all along is that at their roots all these groups have the same philosophical founder and shaper, who favored destroyin' non-Muslim gov'ts.  That belief may not be the drivin' belief of Hamas or Hezbollah at the moment, but it's there.  When they get tired of attackin' just Israel, where do you think they'll go?  They'll go to Europe or come here.  They'll attack our ordinary citizens in the same dispicable manner the Israel populace.  

That's all I'm sayin'.  May not have been sayin' it well, but that's what I've been tryin' to say.

Rose: [disgusted] Oh, look at what the cat dragged in: "The Oncoming Storm."

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." -- John Wayne


Sometimes the best causes worth fighting for are lost causes. -- Me.

Formerly Known as "Lost Cause."


#95 tennyson

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:46 PM

India has had nuclear weapons since 1974, which is why I found all the hysteria over the Indians testing thier nuclear weapons again rather silly because the world had already known they had them for decades. But India is a democracy in the British tradition and also an ally, which sets them having nuclear weapons at a little safer than Iran but not quite as safe as France and the UK because they don't have the extensive controls that either nation has yet.
It is the official policy of the United States and the UN to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons with an equal mix of idealism and pragmatism driving that mandate. When a nation will allow inspectors in and disarm then that is great and that has happened with so far all the former Soviet republics and Libya with the US actually footing the bill for this in places like Kazhkstan.
But as I've mentioned before I've explored the situation with North Korea before in depth and refer to those posts.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#96 rodglas

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 02:48 PM

I fear that the only way to get a clear agreement from all western nations in fighting terrorism, the spread of of WMDs and the like is for one of these groups, supported by Iran, N Korea or Al Quieda(sp) is for a nuclear or chemical weapon being used on Paris or Berlin with the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

I also fear that because of the Iraq conflict, and its ongoing nature, the lack of supporting evidence to back the US reasons for invasion and the general mistrust of men like GW Bush by many world leaders -- that the next time military action is required to prevent or stop on horrible injustice it will require enormous efforts to get the world into any kind of action.

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#97 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 06:28 PM

View Postrodglas, on Jan 4 2006, 01:48 PM, said:

I also fear that because of the Iraq conflict, and its ongoing nature, the lack of supporting evidence to back the US reasons for invasion and the general mistrust of men like GW Bush by many world leaders -- that the next time military action is required to prevent or stop on horrible injustice it will require enormous efforts to get the world into any kind of action.

Rod.


While I don't mind Hussein bein' gone and in the dock, I fear you may be right.  Bush ('cause of evidence--lack thereof) should've used the 13 other violations of the UN resolutions by Hussein as entry.  

But, one good thing has come outta this:  The Oil-For-Food issue is now in open air and up for serious investigation.  



View Postwaterpanther, on Jan 3 2006, 09:55 PM, said:

Not to worry. I wasn't standing where the howitzers were aimed, anyway. You have my profound sympathy on the necessity to return to work after the Christmas break. When I was teaching, I was always vaguely amazed that I'd lived through the first half of the school year and not always sure in May that I'd made it through the second half.


WP, I'm not sure I'll be able to survive the 2nd Semester, considerin' the spring play is up and that's my perview.  I'm gonna be a nervous wreck.  Can anyone say, "Caffeine?"  :caffeine:



View Postwaterpanther, on Jan 3 2006, 09:55 PM, said:

Not to worry. I wasn't standing where the howitzers were aimed, anyway.


Well, I never claimed to be a cannoneer anyway.  ;)

Rose: [disgusted] Oh, look at what the cat dragged in: "The Oncoming Storm."

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." -- John Wayne


Sometimes the best causes worth fighting for are lost causes. -- Me.

Formerly Known as "Lost Cause."




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