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Row over Danish cartoons depicting Muhammad with bomb

Religion Islam Cartoons of Muhammad

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#21 scherzo

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 07:14 PM

At this point I have no use for any kind of mollifying language when describing the current state of Islam and it's devout followers. "Religion of Peace.com"(a domain name dripping with appropriate sarcasm) encapsulates the problem nicely with a pair of images:
http://www.thereligi...ult.htm#attacks
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The picture on the left is of a lucky young girl who managed to avoid being slaughtered in the name of Allah as thousands of other children and innocent people are by Islamic terrorists each year. The drawing on the right is a cartoon. Only one of these images provokes Muslims into rage, fiery demonstrations, boycotts and death threats against the perpetrators. Do you understand Islam well enough to know which one?
-scherzo

images edited at mod request

Edited by scherzo, 06 February 2006 - 03:19 AM.

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#22 emsparks

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 07:18 PM

I have not read most of this thread so if I’m off base then so be it. I would make a couple of points.

Incitement to riot is not protected under the tenants of free speech. The Islamic prohibition of images of Mohamed is well known, as is the potential for such publishing of said images to cause wide spread rioting. European newspapers are acting irresponsibly.

As you cannot yell fire in a crowed theater, you cannot incite a riot. Courts the world over, have held to do either is not covered under any freedom of expression rights.

In this case the newspapers are wrong…

Edited by emsparks, 04 February 2006 - 07:23 PM.

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#23 Spectacles

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 07:46 PM

I think Sparky makes a good point: it was damned stupid for the European papers to publish the cartoons, given the state of radical Islam these days. It's the equivalent of shouting fire in a crowded theatre.

That said, I'm mighty sick of radical Islam. Call me petty, but I have no desire to expend much effort in trying to respect or understand people who get bent out of shape over depictions of Mohammed and yet embrace the obscenity of terrorism.


And I'm just as sick of any kind of fundamentalism if its believers are arrogant enough to think they know God's mind and are sanctimonious enough to think they're God's appointed enforcers on this planet. All of this insanity needs to stop before we reduce the world to heaps of burning rubble.
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#24 Schmokie_Dragon

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 07:49 PM

Yes, they were irresponsible because they should have known the effect, but does that excuse the over-reaction?

Yes, these things (stupidly) are enough to set some muslims off. And yes, if we want to live in peace we need to set as few muslims (or people in general) off as possible. However, their reaction was totaly OTT, irresponsible, irrational and unjustified. Do we pander to their wishes and needs and put our own freedoms by the way side? This action would not have been gaurenteed to cause the reaction it did. It was likely, but so is insulting any group/religion likely to get a passionate response. The cry of "you should have known we would not like this" is not an excuse. They should have the self-control to moderate their behavior. Its is not the job of the company to censor their material, it is the responsibility of the people to react in an appropriate manner - "It was bound to cause a riot" is no excuse for the riot itself and if the newspapers are shown to be in the wrong it only reinforces the sense that the west is increasingly bending to the will of those who put certain pressures on it. You must punish a thieving child, even if you gave him the opportunity to steal something and you knew he would take that opportunity. If those who cannot control themselves in the face of secular criticism are not dealt with in some way, they will only become easier to offend.
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#25 Cardie

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 07:58 PM

While I think any culture or group of people that advocates death and violence as the answer to satire needs a reality check, at least those Muslims living in majority Muslim countries where Islamic law reigns are expressing outrage over something that would be illegal in their own society.

What troubles me more is all the Muslims who have chosen to emigrate to secular democracies in Europe and elsewhere and yet expect the citizens of those countries to abide by their religious precepts.  (I feel the same way about certain extremist religious groups in the US.) I'm sure Orthodox Jews living in the US or UK don't relish seeing others eat ham sandwiches, but I'm not aware of any movements to impose the laws of Kashruth on those secular societies.  When you become a citizen of a country in which blasphemy against any faith is a matter for members of that faith and is not covered by the law of the land, you give up any right to call for censorship to protect your sectarian beliefs, and you certainly give up the right to call for death and destruction to befall those who don't consider depictions of the prophet Muhammad to be a crime.

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#26 QueenTiye

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 08:07 PM

Well said. I don't get the point of coming to the areas most unlike the way you want to live your life....

But in truth - I don't believe that's what happens.  I think most of the time people leave home for want of better opportunities - and then find themselves feeling isolated because they are different.  Some people overcome this by  mingling - but for the religious - mingling is a scary prospect - you don't want to lose your religion just to fit in.  So instead, I think they become even more radicalized - they may not have been radicals in their own country - but disappointment of everything not being milk and honey may turn their sentiment - and there are certainly enough demogogues to prey on that disappointment.

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#27 waterpanther

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 08:09 PM

American legal doctrine, by the way, agrees with Sparky:

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The fighting-words doctrine was first articulated in Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568 (1942). Chaplinsky was convicted of violating a New Hampshire statute that prohibited the use of offensive, insulting language toward persons in public places after making several inflammatory comments to a city official. The Court, in upholding the statute as constitutional, set down those famous words:

There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or "fighting" words — those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality.

Fighting Words Doctrine

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They should have the self-control to moderate their behavior.


The same could be said of the cartoonists and newspapers.  Let's take a simpler example.  Billy Bob walks up to Jimmy George on the sidewalk and, for reasons known but to God,  beats him to a hamburgery pulp.  BB goes to jail, and everybody's happy.  Now, however, suppose Jimmy George accosted Billy Bob on the street, and without provocation got in his face and yelled "Your mama f***s mangy pound dogs!"  Whereupon Billy Bob beats him to a hamburgery pulp, but gets a scolding from the judge and probation because of the fighting words doctrine, general sympathy for defending one's mama and Jimmy George's own stupidity.
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#28 G1223

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 08:13 PM

View PostSchmokie_Dragon, on Feb 4 2006, 07:49 PM, said:

Yes, they were irresponsible because they should have known the effect, but does that excuse the over-reaction?

Yes, these things (stupidly) are enough to set some muslims off. And yes, if we want to live in peace we need to set as few muslims (or people in general) off as possible.

Then we had beeter make everyone live by their laws since a minority group is going to have the freedom to set the rules for the rest of us. I think maybe a few people are too eager to bend over try to appease a people who use their faith to do what can only be called by todays standards as Evil. Those who we are told are good people do nothing say nothing.  I remember s line. those who do nothing about a problem are just as guilt as those who actually did the deed.

Now I support laws that generally prevent people from being attacked physically by others. But this is expressing an opinion and I think Islam is either going to get a thick skin or it needs to start it's holy war but it had best except that some people are not going to fight fair keep it conventional or not go nuclear.
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#29 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 09:30 PM

When you look over those cartoons, It's pretty clear which one is causing the uproar. It's the image of the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) with a bomb for a turban.

The other cartoons are insensitive, but would not, IMHO be as inflammatory as that PARTICULAR one.

It would be akin to drawing a picture of Jesus depicting him smoking a joint, shooting heroin and drinking a 40 whilst engaging in a sex act with a group of farm animals - it really IS that serious to a Muslim, mostly due to the WAY in which it was drawn. The artist used the ACTUAL drawing of Muhammed's name - which is a sacred thing and the nearest to idolatry Islam will stand.

Does it warrant riots and embassy burnings? Well, probably not, but it was certaintly a stupid thing to do and, IMHO, designed to incense the middle east.

But that''s just MHO!
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#30 Delvo

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 10:12 PM

I've been wondering what it would take to get large numbers of politically correct diehards to start facing the fact that Islam is inherently a religion of bloodthirst. I never expected the answer to be "Cartoons".

#31 QueenTiye

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 10:15 PM

Islam is not inherently a religion of bloodthirst.  That it has become overrun by extremist sentiment in our times is hardly reason to characterize its entire history that way.

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#32 waterpanther

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 10:28 PM

Delvo wrote:

Quote

I've been wondering what it would take to get large numbers of politically correct diehards to start facing the fact that Islam is inherently a religion of bloodthirst. I never expected the answer to be "Cartoons".

The Guidelines say:


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1B. Please do not use offensive words to describe groups of people. This leads to board unrest and incivility and can be grounds for moderator action as specified in individual forum rules.

3. We all have different points of view and outlooks. Please do not attack other posters because they differ from you. Hatefulness is not allowed.

Edited by waterpanther, 04 February 2006 - 10:29 PM.

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#33 G1223

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 10:29 PM

Sorry QT there are sects within Isalm that say that if those of the faith are the majority there should be forced conversion. I know that number of people do not actually do it but it is there and has been used to do exactly that. And not just in the last few decades.
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#34 QueenTiye

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 10:37 PM

there's no need to apologize.  There are sects of Christians who believe that white people are inherently superior to black people.  They aren't in the majority, and probably never will be again, but there was a time when the majority of white Christians believed just this way - based on a flawed interpretation of scripture.  So - I don't see any need for apologizing for pointing out the fact that there are sects of Islam that have problematic ideology.  That's a known fact - not in dispute.

What I opposed was the claim that the religion was inherently bloodthirsty - that encompasses all sects.

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#35 G1223

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 10:49 PM

I at times have a hard time seperating the violent ones from the peaceful ones. I do not see many 'Christian' nations having mass killing of those not of their faith.
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#36 QueenTiye

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 10:55 PM

Today we don't see that.

Yesterday, anyone who wasn't Christian/European was heathen, and deserving of death or slavery.

And - of course - that's ignoring the whole Bosnia/Serbia thing that happened only a few years ago.  

Religion is always a nice tool to use to divide those who are already divided - there's always some scripture that someone can mangle beyond all recognition to justify whatever it is that they want to do.

No wonder the Bible speaks of 144,000.  Compared to the number of faithful in most world religions - that's a pretty small number...

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#37 Rhea

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 11:26 PM

View PostCardie, on Feb 4 2006, 04:58 PM, said:

While I think any culture or group of people that advocates death and violence as the answer to satire needs a reality check, at least those Muslims living in majority Muslim countries where Islamic law reigns are expressing outrage over something that would be illegal in their own society.

Cardie


What Cardie said. ;)

Part of the price of immigrating to a free country out of a theocracy is that freedom of speech is ALWAYS a two-edged sword.

Edited by Rhea, 06 February 2006 - 07:01 PM.

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#38 Chakotay

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 04:57 AM

http://www.wamy.co.u...nglish_iyb.html

Islam is apparently an 'opt out' faith - everyone is born Muslim, but many will choose to be something else - Christian, atheist, whatever.

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slam states clearly that everyone is born a Muslim and is therefore monotheistic by nature. We read in the Qur'an that humanity has been created with the natural disposition towards the unity of God. This is to be expected, for Allah, who has breathed His spirit into each of us, is Himself the example of perfect unity. In the words of the Prophet Muhammad: "Every person is born with the innate religious faith (to submit to God Almighty)." Thus when an individual accepts Islam, he is not turning his back on any prior revelation but rather is returning to the original and true revelation of Allah and to his own nature as a creation of Allah. This being the case, Islam is your birthright-other religious or ideological systems are either corruptions our outright denials of Islam.

Personally, I find that pretty arrogant. Then again, I was raised in an 'opt-in' faith - Christianity, and made the personal choice to be confirmed.

Anyway - it's not just 144000 from the twelve tribes that the bible says will be saved - there is the also the multitude with them. (Rev 7)

I guess any faith based on a book will be prone to selective quotes and interpretations. The language of the past isn't always clear in the present.
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#39 scherzo

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 06:18 AM

View PostDelvo, on Feb 4 2006, 10:12 PM, said:

I've been wondering what it would take to get large numbers of politically correct diehards to start facing the fact that Islam is inherently a religion of bloodthirst. I never expected the answer to be "Cartoons".
I've been wondering what makes Islam, uniquely qualified to be defended from attack by PC diehards who normally express nothing but contempt for mainstream organized religion? I would guess it's partly because the hard left and militant Islam share hatred for certain institutional realities, even if they arrive at the hate for different(if equally ridiculous)reasons. The rest I can only chalk up to a basic unwillingness by most of civilized society, to accept that an ideology with so many devout followers could have evil at it's very foundation.  

Problem is, making believe all is well and good within the actual Islamic scriptures, means the real issue will never be addressed in a satisfactory way. Most will insist the religion itself doesn't represent a threat because good manners demand we take the nice, reasonable, ready for prime-time point of view....even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Others will waste time trying to introduce "balance" with irrelevant comparisons to religious crimes of Christianity from centuries past. Either way, all the politically correct sermonizing in the world won't stem the tide of daily atrocities committed in the name of Islam.

-scherzo
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#40 Spectacles

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 06:48 AM

View Postscherzo, on Feb 5 2006, 06:18 AM, said:

View PostDelvo, on Feb 4 2006, 10:12 PM, said:

I've been wondering what it would take to get large numbers of politically correct diehards to start facing the fact that Islam is inherently a religion of bloodthirst. I never expected the answer to be "Cartoons".
I've been wondering what makes Islam, uniquely qualified to be defended from attack by PC diehards who normally express nothing but contempt for mainstream organized religion? I would guess it's partly because the hard left and militant Islam share hatred for certain institutional realities, even if they arrive at the hate for different(if equally ridiculous)reasons. The rest I can only chalk up to a basic unwillingness by most of civilized society, to accept that an ideology with so many devout followers could have evil at it's very foundation.  

Problem is, making believe all is well and good within the actual Islamic scriptures, means the real issue will never be addressed in a satisfactory way. Most will insist the religion itself doesn't represent a threat because good manners demand we take the nice, reasonable, ready for prime-time point of view....even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Others will waste time trying to introduce "balance" with irrelevant comparisons to religious crimes of Christianity from centuries past. Either way, all the politically correct sermonizing in the world won't stem the tide of daily atrocities committed in the name of Islam.

-scherzo


Well, first of all, since Delvo's remarks seem to be inspired by the discussion in this thread, I find myself wondering who the "politically correct diehards" around here are. But then, I may be misinterpreting his remarks.

In case he included me in the "politically correct diehards" category, I'd like to make it clear that I've had nothing but contempt for militant Islam for many years--even before 9/11.

However, knowing a number of wonderful people who are Muslims, I make a firm distinction between militant Islam and Islam as a whole. Just as I make a distinction between militant Christian Identity nuts and Christianity. Hell, I make a distinction between Falwell, Robertson, and their follows and Christians.

I think it's a stretch to say that it's PC to be reluctant to condemn all of Islam for the radical ideology of the Wahhabists and the like. Seems to me that such an acknowledgment is simply fact-based and logical. There are plenty of Muslims who, while offended by the cartoons, aren't calling for the cartoonists to be amputated or beheaded. We need to keep that in mind. It's the ones who are literally calling for the cartoonists head that I have a problem with. Not my Muslim friends who aren't.

Since this has taken a bash-the-left turn, I'll add something I thought but didn't say earlier. I wonder when my friends on the right will begin to share my outrage that our war in Iraq has "liberated" and empowered the very strain of malignant Islam in Iraq that we're supposed to be fighting in our "War on Terror." Pretty damned ironic, isn't it?
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