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Iran Newspaper Plans Holocaust Cartoons

Media Iran Newspaper Holocaust Cartoons Iran

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#41 emsparks

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 12:12 PM

View Post_ph, on Feb 14 2006, 11:16 AM, said:

...

Yeah--this is really about cartoons.

No this is about the coming Jihad, to be lead by Syria and Iran. They have shown the west that they can put tens of thousands in the streets all most on command, especially if it has religious over tones. Bare in mind that most of the rioters havenít seen the cartoons, and are acting out because their religious leaders, the radical brand, have given them license to vent their anger.

Iran wants the bomb, then they want to destroy Israel and nothing is going to stop them short of war, and it will be a bloody one.
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#42 veganmom

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 12:22 PM

Rhea, I agree. There is a HUGE amount to be offended by. I totally agree.
I would just love to see the entire West take the "high road." Let them print cartoons. We all grit our teeth and say, "Nice try."
It won't make them respect us. It may lead some to think, "Hey, they DO support freedom of expression." Perhaps some will think, "Hmmmmm....we riot and kill innocents and allow our 'leaders" to lead us around by a nose ring....and we can't get a rise out of them...."

If we DO react, it gives them ammunition to use in propaganda. Like they need more...

Heck, you know as well as I do that the "leaders" took some cartoons from the Danish paper (God bless those Danes for not pandering), added a bunch of other really offensive ones that were never published in Denmark, and poured on the gasoline. Doesn't take much.

"Death to Americans." WTF? We weren't even involved! That's what's really astounding. How stupid ARE people?

But then I think, we invaded Iraq because our "leaders" told us Saddam Hussein had WMDs, was linked to 9/11....and then poured on the gasoline....so....how stupid ARE people?......

:crazy:

#43 emsparks

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 12:59 PM

View Postveganmom, on Feb 14 2006, 12:22 PM, said:

Rhea, I agree. There is a HUGE amount to be offended by. I totally agree.
I would just love to see the entire West take the "high road." Let them print cartoons. We all grit our teeth and say, "Nice try."
It won't make them respect us. It may lead some to think, "Hey, they DO support freedom of expression." Perhaps some will think, "Hmmmmm....we riot and kill innocents and allow our 'leaders" to lead us around by a nose ring....and we can't get a rise out of them...."

If we DO react, it gives them ammunition to use in propaganda. Like they need more...

There is only one problem the printing of these cartoons are nothing new. Anti-Israel anti-holocaust cartoons, are printed daily in papers from Egypt to Malaise, and have been for many years now. There is no high road to take. It is only now with the President of Iran calling a conference to determine if the holocaust ever happened. It is only now that things are hotting up, especially with his calls for the destruction of Israel.

View Postveganmom, on Feb 14 2006, 12:22 PM, said:

Heck, you know as well as I do that the "leaders" took some cartoons from the Danish paper (God bless those Danes for not pandering), added a bunch of other really offensive ones that were never published in Denmark, and poured on the gasoline. Doesn't take much.

"Death to Americans." WTF? We weren't even involved! That's what's really astounding. How stupid ARE people?

But then I think, we invaded Iraq because our "leaders" told us Saddam Hussein had WMDs, was linked to 9/11....and then poured on the gasoline....so....how stupid ARE people?......
:crazy:

First of all this is not the US government speaking, this is the United Nations, the IAEA, and news services, around the world speaking. Iran will have an atom bomb and missiles to deliver it the only question is when.
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#44 veganmom

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 01:05 PM

emsparks, I totally wasn't commenting on the whole Iran nukes thing. i was strictly talking about the Holocaust cartoons. And drawing a parallel on how leaders can inflame a populace with lies if the leaders are trusted.

And you know and I know that anti-Israel, "Holocaust didn't happen" cartoons are printed daily. Apparently, mny Israeli leaders are portrayed in bed with Hitler, things like that. That's why I can hold out hope that we (and how horrible is it that we're now polarized, Us vs. Them, East vs. West, exactly what some people were trying to achieve) do not react.

How anyone can say the Holocaust didn't happen is beyond me. Why people believe it is beyond me. But it is more believable when you recognize we were bamboozled the same exact way -- with lies, stretches of the truth, taking one unreliable source and portraying his opinion as gospel...

#45 Rhea

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 01:05 PM

View Postveganmom, on Feb 14 2006, 09:22 AM, said:

"Death to Americans." WTF? We weren't even involved! That's what's really astounding. How stupid ARE people?
:crazy:


It's because we support those Jew dogs, you know. EVERYTHING  - and I do mean everything - is about the U.S. supporting Israel.

They had a point back in the 40's - the Jews basically took over a country that belonged to other people and claimed it on a historical basis, and we supported them because we all felt guilty about the Holocaust.  The Jews have never dealt fairly with Palestine (and it was, after all, their homeland too) and the rest of the Middle East has never dealt fairly with Israel. It's a mess.

AND it's exactly the same as Bush screaming "terrorism"  every time he wants to cover his own missteps even though it's really about his actions, not the terrorists'  - they scream "death to the US" and there's an immediate kneejerk response, even when we're not involved at all. :p Human beings are amazingly Pavlovian, aren't we? We can be trained to respond to all sorts of cues. ;)
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#46 veganmom

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 01:10 PM

View PostRhea, on Feb 14 2006, 06:05 PM, said:

They had a point back in the 40's - the Jews basically took over a country that belonged to other people and claimed it on a historical basis, and we supported them because we all felt guilty about the Holocaust.  The Jews have never dealt fairly with Palestine (and it was, after all, their homeland too) and the rest of the Middle East has never dealt fairly with Israel. It's a mess.

Here's where my not paying enough attention in History class comes back to bite me. Perhaps someone can clarify.
My impression was, you're right, The World just kind of took a map and split Palestine into an area for Palestinians and an Israeli "homeland."
Was the area meant for Palestinians Jordan? Or was it something else?
Anyhow, since then, the Palestinians have had NO homeland. Just had it yanked out from under them.
And if we start drawing borders based on thousands of years ago....well, what kind of a mess will THAT be? Where will, say, all non-native Americans go?

Why didn't that first map hold? I mean, they took half of Palestine...what happened to the other half?

#47 rponiarski

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 01:10 PM

View Postemsparks, on Feb 14 2006, 12:12 PM, said:

No this is about the coming Jihad, to be lead by Syria and Iran. They have shown the west that they can put tens of thousands in the streets all most on command, especially if it has religious over tones. Bare in mind that most of the rioters havenít seen the cartoons, and are acting out because their religious leaders, the radical brand, have given them license to vent their anger.

Iran wants the bomb, then they want to destroy Israel and nothing is going to stop them short of war, and it will be a bloody one.

I couldn't agree more. Iran is led by a known terrorist (the US embassy takeover) and there is no reason for a country with the known energy reserves that they have to want nuclear power. They want a bomb to bomb Tel-Aviv and destroy Isreal. Period.

The saddest part; we are all financing their madness by purchasing their oil exports. Kind of like them handing a man a rope and telling him to hang himself... :crazy:  :cry:
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#48 Godeskian

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 01:20 PM

View Postrponiarski, on Feb 14 2006, 08:10 PM, said:

I couldn't agree more. Iran is led by a known terrorist (the US embassy takeover) and there is no reason for a country with the known energy reserves that they have to want nuclear power.

Actually there are a few good reason for a nation with Iran's energy reserves to want to develop Nuclear power.

The first is that as large as those reserves are, they are finite. TV notwithstanding, one cannot just draw up the designs for a nuclear plant, and have the plant built in six months. The UK is currently considering building a nuclear reactor, and that wouldnt' be completed for almost a decade. Despite the popular view of Iran as a bunch of hatemongering violent fanatics, it woudln't take much for one of them to realise that given the lead time to desgin, build and use a nuclear reactor, starting when you are 6 months away from being out of oil is a very, very bad move.

What's more, boogymen notwithstanding, the output of a Nuclear plant would allow them to power a signifigant portion of their infrastructure, and make them all in all less reliant on fossil fuels, which I can also imagine them thinking is a good thing.

Yes, they would likely develop nuclear weapons, but that fear alone should not blind people to the legitimate reasons why a country, any country mind, not just Iran, might seek out alternate sources of power.

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#49 tennyson

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 02:16 PM

Quote

My impression was, you're right, The World just kind of took a map and split Palestine into an area for Palestinians and an Israeli "homeland."
Was the area meant for Palestinians Jordan? Or was it something else?
Anyhow, since then, the Palestinians have had NO homeland. Just had it yanked out from under them.

The United Nations partition of 1947 gave roughly half of the modern state of Isreal to the Jewish people and half to the Arabs(thier was no Palestinian identity then). Then on the day Isreal was given its independence from Great Britian it was invaded by Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq as well as contigents from Arab countries farther afield. The goal was to "drive the Jews into the sea" and take all the land that had been partitioned for them. Nearly two years of war later Isreal broke the Arab armies, took the land that had been given to the Arabs as its own and a large group of refugees suddenly found itself in the surrounding Arab nations after the disruptions of the war. Over the next several decades these peole weren't allowed to make a home or find an idenity in thier adopted countries, believing the Arab nations' promises of driving the jews into the sea and taking all the land back as they failed in war after war. The Arab nations saw the forming Palestinian people as a stick in which to beat Isreal, a rallying cry while at the same time they never let them out of the refuge camps and kept them from taking part in thier societies so they would stay an embittered and isolated community.
By the early 1960s you have the Palestinians organizing themselves into such groups as the PLO, whose goal was to "drive the Jews into the sea" and take all the land. Thus began one major force in modern terrorism and for a while the PLO had real power. Jordan's king was so afriad of them trying to take over his country that in 1972 he struck first, obiliterating the PLO forces that had been operating in his nation and expelling a lot of refugees. The PLO then setup thier main bases in Lebanon where they were just another faction in the civil war that was tearing that ountry apart. They built up an army there with heavy equipment, tanks, armoured personnel carriers, artillery and in 1982 Isreal invaded Lebanon to destroy the entrenched forces of the PLO. They destroyed thier army and from then on the various Palestnian groups stopped trying to fight Isreal with conventional tactics and turned completely to terror strikes, people's uprisings and the like.
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#50 veganmom

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 02:09 PM

Tennyson, thank you very, very much. I really appreciate the clarification.

The DAY AFTER its independence? Youch. Palestinians not being taken in by neighboring countries? Man. No wonder they're pissed.

Hey, since you're history God, what's the most likely solution? Doesn't seem like the wall is helping. Don't think a "Palestinian country" made up of separate islands of land in Israel is good. And are people ever going to rise above the bitterness of history and make sacrifices necessary to live together in peace? Or do we resign ourselves to the fact that this area will never be peaceful, and people will have to just co-exist in a state of constant "dull roar" or move?

#51 tennyson

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 02:20 PM

I wish I knew a solution that would be garanteed to work. But being able to describe a situation and knowing how to solve it are two very different things. Now with HAMAS in power and Sharon in critical care anything can happen.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#52 Schmokie_Dragon

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 03:01 PM

Disclaimer - no time to read the whole thread, just in response to the first post:

The West, however offended, cannot be seen to oppose this in a legislative, military or political fashion. If they did, it would be a clear case of one rule for us, one rule for the rest of the world. Of course these cartoons would be of bad taste and would make many people upset, and IMHO is a more serious matter then those of Mo. (but maybe thats just my western sentiment talking). However, in the interests of freedom of expression, this should be allowed.

Lets hope a cartoon tit-for-tat has not been started here... how pathetic.
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#53 Rhea

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 03:12 PM

View Posttennyson, on Feb 14 2006, 11:16 AM, said:

Quote

My impression was, you're right, The World just kind of took a map and split Palestine into an area for Palestinians and an Israeli "homeland."
Was the area meant for Palestinians Jordan? Or was it something else?
Anyhow, since then, the Palestinians have had NO homeland. Just had it yanked out from under them.

The United Nations partition of 1947 gave roughly half of the modern state of Isreal to the Jewish people and half to the Arabs(thier was no Palestinian identity then). Then on the day Isreal was given its independence from Great Britian it was invaded by Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq as well as contigents from Arab countries farther afield. The goal was to "drive the Jews into the sea" and take all the land that had been partitioned for them. Nearly two years of war later Isreal broke the Arab armies, took the land that had been given to the Arabs as its own and a large group of refugees suddenly found itself in the surrounding Arab nations after the disruptions of the war. Over the next several decades these peole weren't allowed to make a home or find an idenity in thier adopted countries, believing the Arab nations' promises of driving the jews into the sea and taking all the land back as they failed in war after war. The Arab nations saw the forming Palestinian people as a stick in which to beat Isreal, a rallying cry while at the same time they never let them out of the refuge camps and kept them from taking part in thier societies so they would stay an embittered and isolated community.
By the early 1960s you have the Palestinians organizing themselves into such groups as the PLO, whose goal was to "drive the Jews into the sea" and take all the land. Thus began one major force in modern terrorism and for a while the PLO had real power. Jordan's king was so afriad of them trying to take over his country that in 1972 he struck first, obiliterating the PLO forces that had been operating in his nation and expelling a lot of refugees. The PLO then setup thier main bases in Lebanon where they were just another faction in the civil war that was tearing that ountry apart. They built up an army there with heavy equipment, tanks, armoured personnel carriers, artillery and in 1982 Isreal invaded Lebanon to destroy the entrenched forces of the PLO. They destroyed thier army and from then on the various Palestnian groups stopped trying to fight Isreal with conventional tactics and turned completely to terror strikes, people's uprisings and the like.


Yup. And I think what pisses the Arabs off most is that they expected the Israelis to be a pushover and got their asses kicked instead. I guess after the Holocaust the Jews just weren't in a mood to be screwed around with. :devil:

There is right and wrong on both sides, and the trouble is that neither side is fully able to admit it. Additionally, every other Arab state thinks that THEY ought to get a vote. If they'd butt out, maybe - just maybe - the Israelis and the Palestinians could stop slaughtering each other and come to an agreement.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH



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