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GW Bush Criticism

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#41 G1223

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 07:54 PM

And if you remember the local authorities in New York even Republcians thanked Guliani for his offer and said goodbye when his term was finished. But thanks for the example of another fear card,
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#42 tennyson

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 02:27 AM

rponiarski, if something like that happens then hopefully you'll follow me into the hills.
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#43 Shalamar

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 07:11 AM

Need an old lady to keep house? Cause thats where I'd be heading.
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#44 G1223

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 07:55 AM

First even Bush knows his own party would pitch a fit. This would need for next office holder and the whole of congress to be killed off and still he would not likely be allowed to remain as for the man who takes the oath of office does so with the office to vacant. This is another Bush is so EVIL..... scare stories.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#45 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 12:13 PM

^I saw the same exact claim when Clinton was leaving office so this one isn't just a Bush is evil statement but rather the other side is evil claim.
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#46 rponiarski

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 02:41 PM

View Posttennyson, on Feb 18 2006, 02:27 AM, said:

rponiarski, if something like that happens then hopefully you'll follow me into the hills.

Right behind you, my whole family as well...



View PostCJ AEGIS, on Feb 18 2006, 12:13 PM, said:

^I saw the same exact claim when Clinton was leaving office so this one isn't just a Bush is evil statement but rather the other side is evil claim.

I understand that people who hated Clinton would fear that, just as Bush haters fear what I said. The difference is one of timing. Right now we are in "a war on terror", whatever that really is, so martial law and cancelling elections are not too big a stretch. Heck, Lincoln cancelled habeas corpus in the Civil War, why not Bush do this?
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#47 rponiarski

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 02:52 PM

View PostG1223, on Feb 18 2006, 07:55 AM, said:

This is another Bush is so EVIL..... scare stories.

I never said he was "evil". This is trying to place a moral judgement on a political one. In my view he has been an aweful president, dividing the country even more since 9/11, when we were all behind him 100%. He has entagled us in a war which we did not need to fight and that has cost us nearly a half a trillion dollars!! :eek4: He has abridged the rights of US citizens all in the name of safety, which will leave us neither safe nor free. And he has been perhaps the most secretive president in all history, something any true conservative should be up in arms about as the president is a servant of "We the People" and not their master.

Say what you want, but that record speaks for itself...
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#48 G1223

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 04:43 PM

Which rights? The one where suspected people have their overseas phone calls monitered? Odd we found out that if we had such a system in place we might have caught Atta andCo. before the attack. This is something the 9/11 commitee pointed out.

The war in Iraq.

The pointless war where we could have just looked over and shrugged about Saddam not letting the inspectors in or into all the places they wanted to go. Silly thing is that was what he agreed to do when he lost the war. Silly thing holding a known aggressor to his word. I mean under Clinton the excuse of the Intell was used to gear up for a war in 1998 which even Sen. Kerry signed off on in support of the attack.

You want to make it all Bush had to do was do nothing. When a guy who now it seems was indeed trying to get the weapons materials (According to his Brother-in law's statements released recently) at least since 1995. But your right we should have done nothing after 9/11. Think about all the money that could have been saved if we just fired off a few cruise missles and claimed victory over terrorists.  It worked for Bill Clinton till they nearly sank the USS Cole and blew up our embassies in Africa.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

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#49 Rhea

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 04:54 PM

View PostG1223, on Feb 18 2006, 01:43 PM, said:

Which rights? The one where suspected people have their overseas phone calls monitered? Odd we found out that if we had such a system in place we might have caught Atta andCo. before the attack. This is something the 9/11 commitee pointed out.

The FISA court was set up so that the President could go there to get warrants for wiretapping. Emperor Bush decided to ignore the court, and even his own party is calling him to task for it.

Quote

The pointless war where we could have just looked over and shrugged about Saddam not letting the inspectors in or into all the places they wanted to go. Silly thing is that was what he agreed to do when he lost the war. Silly thing holding a known aggressor to his word. I mean under Clinton the excuse of the Intell was used to gear up for a war in 1998 which even Sen. Kerry signed off on in support of the attack.

Lie. The UN weapons inspectors were going exactly where they wanted to go and stating loudly that they had seen nothing that could be termed a weapon of mass destruction. Bush wanted to attack Iraq, and he convinced the Congress that the UN inspectors were incompetent boobies at best and sellouts at worst.

Quote

You want to make it all Bush had to do was do nothing. When a guy who now it seems was indeed trying to get the weapons materials (According to his Brother-in law's statements released recently) at least since 1995. But your right we should have done nothing after 9/11. Think about all the money that could have been saved if we just fired off a few cruise missles and claimed victory over terrorists. It worked for Bill Clinton till they nearly sank the USS Cole and blew up our embassies in Africa.


Lie.  The guy responsible for 9/11 was Osama bin Laden, who we've pretty much forgotten about in our haste to attack Saddam for his non-existent WMD's. If we'd put half the time and money we put into Iraq into finding Osama, the man responsible for 9/11 might be dead or incarcerated by now. Saddam Hussein was not connected with or responsible for 9/11.

Edited by Rhea, 18 February 2006 - 04:55 PM.

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#50 G1223

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 05:50 PM

AH FISA that goes back to the reign of the Emeperor Carter. HAte to bust the bubble but it has been there for over 20 going onto 30 years. It reports to congress and yet there has been no reported violations. I guess the Judical branch must be in on the Emperor's plans.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#51 rponiarski

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 08:30 PM

Well said, Rhea. If we had put even one quarter of what we are spending in Iraq into Afganistan (which everyone supported our going into, even that great enemy of the right, France), we may have gotten the man who actually did attack us and we would be a lot further along in having a functioning society that does not depend on the heroin trade to survive.

Oh, I forgot; Osama bin Laden is Saudi and we can't upset them, now can we...


View PostG1223, on Feb 18 2006, 05:50 PM, said:

AH FISA that goes back to the reign of the Emeperor Carter.

What is wrong with the FISA court? May have been the best piece of legislation to be passed by Congress during President Carter's term. I'm no big fan of his (I voted for Gerald Ford), but this was necessary to curb the excesses of the Nixon years. Worked since then and would be working now, if the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue didn't believe that he only has to obey the laws he wants to...
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#52 tennyson

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 11:07 PM

Actually Bin Laden's family back in Saudi Arabia disowned him years before September 11th and if I'm remembering correctly the government  revoked his citizenship. Saudi Arabia isn't some monlithic block, Bin Laden has actively worked to undermine the Saudi royal house both in and outside Saudi Arabia by fomenting rebellion against thier "corrupt, west-leanig ways".Saudi internal security forces have been righting gun battles that got some publicity over the last few years with his Al-Queda followers. The house of Saud would be grateful to have him gone.
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— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#53 G1223

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 01:26 AM

Which FISA rules did he violate?

He used the special court.Which reports to congress on all warrents issued.

He told the select commitee. Which was required. That he told them they could not go out and tell others because those people were not cleared for the info. I mean if Bush had told someone who was not on the list  we would have people jumping through hoops to blame him for giving away top secret info.  Yet the wonderful Democrats on the comittee some of whom have members in their party who could not keep from giving info to the press in the past.

That would be Sen. Lahey who was forced to leave the Intellegence Comitee for leaking the info to the press.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#54 Spectacles

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 06:59 AM

Wikipedia has a good, comprehensive entry on the NSA warrantless spying issue:

http://en.wikipedia....nce_controversy


Quote

Which FISA rules did he violate?

He used the special court.Which reports to congress on all warrents issued.


G, the whole reason this is such a big deal is that the Bush Administration didn't go to the FISA courts for warrants--not before eavesdropping and not after, even though there is a provision in the law that allows for emergency wiretap warrants to be issued after the fact, within so many hours.

And this is not a partisan issue. There are a number of Republicans in the House and the Senate who have publicly stated their concerns about the legality of these warrantless wiretaps. In addition, conservatives like George Will have spoken out against this. Will wrote a blistering column last week asserting that the Bush Administration has dangerously overreached and has tried to grab far more power for the executive branch than the Constitution allows. That's a conservative argument, and one I agree with.
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#55 G1223

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 09:05 AM

You mean used the constitutional power of commander in chief which says he can when needed do what needs done. Every Administration from Carter onward has said that if FISA got in the way of national defense they would ignore FISA and do what needed done.

These same Administrations have said the same of Emergancy War Powers Act.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#56 waterpanther

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 09:40 AM

View PostG1223, on Feb 19 2006, 02:05 PM, said:

You mean used the constitutional power of commander in chief which says he can when needed do what needs done.

Where in the Constitution does it say the Commander in Chief may break the law at will?  Quote it, please.
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#57 Lin731

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 05:05 PM

Quote

Where in the Constitution does it say the Commander in Chief may break the law at will? Quote it, please.

Yeah no kidding, I'd like to see it too.
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#58 Call Me Robin

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 06:39 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Feb 19 2006, 11:59 AM, said:

And this is not a partisan issue. There are a number of Republicans in the House and the Senate who have publicly stated their concerns about the legality of these warrantless wiretaps. In addition, conservatives like George Will have spoken out against this. Will wrote a blistering column last week asserting that the Bush Administration has dangerously overreached and has tried to grab far more power for the executive branch than the Constitution allows. That's a conservative argument, and one I agree with.


You're absolutely right, Specs, and I don't see why people try to frame this as a partisan issue, when it's not.
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#59 Bad Wolf

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 12:17 PM

View PostCait, on Feb 11 2006, 03:03 PM, said:

Time for Dems to step up to the plate and OPPOSE the Administration, even if it appears it will cost them.  Someone has to speak up.

With something other than "vote for us, we're not them".

The Republicans have a powerful grassroots network in the churches.  The democrats continue to labor under the delusion that there is some kind of strong "labor" grass roots cohesion in this country that is even remotely capable of combating what the Republicans have.  There isn't and there never really was.  Look at the last two democrats elected.  Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.  Both southern.  Both relying on that (and in Clinton's case, a running mate with rather conservative connections via his censor loving wife), both trying tap into what the opposition was tapping into.

Many have advocated that the democrats need to back off of some of their more leftist views to have a chance.  I disagree.  They need to distinguish themselves from the opposition, not become a more moderate version of it. I think they've missed opportunity after opportunity by being too afraid to take on the right head on on issues like equal protection regardless of sexual orientation and separation of church and state.  And for what?  They're scared if they take up those banners too strongly they'll lose?  Like they're doing so well as it is?
McCain is already positioning himself as the more moderate republican in order to combat whatever backlash the current administration's extremism causes. The democrats can ill afford to think that they will return to power on the strength of bashing the current administration.

Lil

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 21 February 2006 - 12:18 PM.

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#60 Lin731

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 04:23 PM

Quote

I disagree. They need to distinguish themselves from the opposition, not become a more moderate version of it. I think they've missed opportunity after opportunity by being too afraid to take on the right head on on issues like equal protection regardless of sexual orientation and separation of church and state.

I'd have to disagree with you on that Lil, even though I support that platform. One of the things that cost Dems dearly was being associated with gay rights/gay marriage and the perception of being hostile to religion. The GOP exploited those perceptions. So I don't beleive being more liberal would do any service to the party. Clinton got elected (IMO) because he could appeal to Dems, some Independents and moderate Republicans. One of the largest problems I see with the Democratic party is a failure to voice a platform, or alternatives to current policy in a unified voice. The preception is alot of whining without any answers of their own. Yes alternatives have been offered up but in such a disjointed way that the message never resonates
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