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GW Bush Criticism

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#61 Bad Wolf

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 06:23 PM

Lin, the following is strongly worded but please understand that it's not meant as any kind of attack on you, it's me stating my strong disgruntlement with my party and my strong position on the issue of gay rights.

I disagree that what cost the dems was the association with the gay rights platform.  What cost them was the refusal of the party as a whole to meet the republican platform head on.  Instead of challenging Bush to deny the fact that his pro "amendment" stance was fueled by homophobia, the dems took a wishy washy stand of not really taking a position at all.  The result was that not only did those who DO have a core fear/dislike/disapproval of gays rally behind Bush, those who felt opposite felt disenfranchised.  There is absolutely no reason for a legal distinction between marriage between consenting adults based on sex OTHER than a judgment about the kind of sex people are having.  Yes many people in this country, a majority I would say (to my shame) object to homosexuality.  But not so many are going to publicly admit that they are bigots.  Had the democrats simply called Bush's stance what it was, plain old fashioned, right wing, red neck, religious right, anti gay, bigotry and dared people to publicly support that stance, they might still not have won that particular election, but they could have damned well started laying a groundwork for showing what they DO stand for rather than just campaigning for "ABB".  Civil Rights can be a very very powerful political tool.  It's too bad the Democratic Party doesn't have the balls to take a real stand and use it.

Lil

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 21 February 2006 - 06:26 PM.

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#62 BklnScott

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 06:37 PM

I agree on that, Lil, though what I wish Kerry would've done is challenge Bush to explain why gays getting hitched was a greater threat to marriage than DIVORCE.  Instead, he repeatedly called attention to the fact that Cheney has a lesbian daughter in a blatantly homophobic attempt to persuade anti-gay voters not to vote for his opponent.  (And that single act almost cost him my vote--I *hate* that sucker).

Edited by _ph, 21 February 2006 - 06:39 PM.

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#63 Bad Wolf

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 06:41 PM

I'd love to know exactly what Kerry's advisors were *thinking*.  :rolleyes:
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#64 Lin731

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 06:46 PM

No offense taken Lil and I share the same desire you do when it comes to platform and what I liked to see happen in this country. The problem with going after the GOP on the gay marriage amendment or their general use of gay rights as a bludgeon is that they used it percisely because it WAS a wedge issue. To go after the GOP on the issue of homophobia does no good (IMO) if the people they play to are also homophobic. I've argued this issue with so many people that straddle the fense party wise but will argue until the end of time about all this alleged damage to society that would occur if gays had equal treatment (one was even a lawyer at a Christian college). She never could really argue it properly but there was NO changing her mind. I just don't think you can reason with an unreasonable belief.
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#65 Bad Wolf

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 06:49 PM

Yeah but there's a difference between belief and public policy.  I bet an individual poll taken in certain parts of this country would reveal a whole lot of beliefs that are contrary to civil rights law.  The issue isn't changing people's beliefs, the issue is daring them to actually come out and publicly vote in a way that has been categorically denounced at a national party leve (i.e., the platform, the candidates, etc.) as no better than a stance in favor of segregation or making people wear yellow stars.

Lil

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 21 February 2006 - 06:50 PM.

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#66 Rhea

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 06:56 PM

View PostUna Salus Lillius, on Feb 21 2006, 03:49 PM, said:

Yeah but there's a difference between belief and public policy. I bet an individual poll taken in certain parts of this country would reveal a whole lot of beliefs that are contrary to civil rights law. The issue isn't changing people's beliefs, the issue is daring them to actually come out and publicly vote in a way that has been categorically denounced at a national party leve (i.e., the platform, the candidates, etc.) as no better than a stance in favor of segregation or making people wear yellow stars.

Lil


Precisely.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


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#67 Hibblette

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 07:07 PM

Actually what kills me about the Kerry and the Democrats and Cheney and his daughter was that the Democrats should have been saying "How can this man back all of this?  How can Gays (who are quite openly gay) and are Republicans how can they back all of this?"

I honestly would love to know.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

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#68 Rhea

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 09:13 PM

View PostHibblette, on Feb 21 2006, 04:07 PM, said:

Actually what kills me about the Kerry and the Democrats and Cheney and his daughter was that the Democrats should have been saying "How can this man back all of this? How can Gays (who are quite openly gay) and are Republicans how can they back all of this?"


I honestly would love to know.


It is in the worst sense hypocritical to fight against gay rights while you have a gay daughter (would you deny her those rights? Do you consider her gayness a sin? Should she live with a lover without being assured that property she leaves to her loved one will actually be inherited by her?)

At the least, it is a partioning of the general (all gays) from the particular (my daughter).

I don't understand it from either angle. I'd be willing to bet that if you asked Cheney's wife her reaction would be different from hubby's.

People have, however, proven themselves experts at this in the past (I like my black maid,  I even respect her because she's a good woman, but I'll fight to the death to keep my child from sharing the same school with her child).

It's a phenomenon I don't understand in any of its permutations.

Edited by Rhea, 21 February 2006 - 09:15 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#69 Hibblette

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 09:28 PM

It's also like women I know and work with who are Republicans and they will then say they are for the womans right to choose, it's her body-how can they back these people?

I just really don't get it. :blink:

I'm a liberal Democrat and I believe in the woman's right to choose, but personally if it's me...no choice...in other words when I became pregnant with my son it was a no brainer...and abortion never entered the mind.

But other women...

I...oh well.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#70 Lin731

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 12:24 AM

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It's also like women I know and work with who are Republicans and they will then say they are for the womans right to choose, it's her body-how can they back these people?

Or The Log Cabin Republicans, voting for people that oppose their rights. Some things just leave ya scratching your head.
I think it works because they pick at the margins and at people's tipping point/voting issues. Sometimes all it takes is a single issue to tip a voter. When Bush ran the first time, all the little Bubba's at work were voting for Bush "Cause Gore was gonna take thar guns", the NRA ads said so afterall!. They couldn't tell you jack about what either candidate beleived in other than Gore was gonna go after their guns (and that was based on the typical slam/scare ad). They didn't bother to look any further than that. They did the same thing during the last election with the Gay Marriage amendment issue. Even many who thought it should be a states rights issue and opposed an amendment, were still against gay marriage/Civil Unions and voted for Bush because of it.  I could be wrong but forcing them to come out and vote on a policy that really is segregation of a different sort would have little impact because there again, it plays to their base and even to many people that are normally middle-of-the-road on most other issues. People that oppose equal protection under the law (in the form of marriage rights for gays) wouldn't even blink at a candidate or party putting it forward. It's been my experience that people will always find a way to justify a fear or prejudice.  :(
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#71 BklnScott

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 12:00 PM

View PostHibblette, on Feb 21 2006, 09:28 PM, said:

It's also like women I know and work with who are Republicans and they will then say they are for the womans right to choose, it's her body-how can they back these people?

I just really don't get it. :blink:

Plainly, they've forgotten what it was like pre-Roe v Wade... I think it's tragic, but it might just take a catastrophe--Roe going buh-bye--to wake women up.

As for Gay republicans... Don't get me started on those traitors of kind.  I'll say this: self-loathing is a powerful motivator.

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