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Do Bush supporters have a political ideology?

Politics-American Bush Supporters Ideologies

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#41 Call Me Robin

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 08:35 PM

View Post_ph, on Feb 20 2006, 10:58 PM, said:

W isn't even a conservative in his own father's mode.

In fact, there's a lot of speculation that the two--who apparently never enjoyed a particularly close relationship--don't even talk anymore.  It's hard not to give credence to that theory when the father's surrogates (Marlin Fitzwater, James Bakker) regularly come out and critize the son's administration.

I read an interview with Harry Reid (Senate minority leader) in The New Yorker.  He seemed to have a lot of respect for the first President Bush, describing him as one of the nicest people he's ever met.  Reid claims that George Jr. is his mother's son, and I can believe it.  Barbara Bush is the one who said that the poor Katrina victims in the Astrodome were doing pretty well, since they were used to being underprivileged.  She's also the one who thinks people shouldn't waste their beautiful minds by having to look at pictures of dead soldiers.  Nixon claimed that Babs Bush "knows how to hate."  Under that grandmotherly facade, Barbara is a very unpleasant piece of work.

I personally wish the whole family would go away.
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#42 Lin731

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 10:38 PM

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Two words: Jimmy. Carter. The suburban NYC county I grew up in--which had gone for Carter in 76--went heavily for Regan in 80 and has remained overwhelmingly Republican since then. IIRC, this was repeated across the country in 80 and 84, and represents a major political realignment. I'm sure our resident historians will correct me on that if need be.

Really???? Whoda thunk it? So basically they went from being "Reagan Democrats" voting Republican to just voting Republican? How did they swing during the Clinton years?
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#43 BklnScott

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 10:57 PM

View PostLin731, on Feb 20 2006, 10:38 PM, said:

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Two words: Jimmy. Carter. The suburban NYC county I grew up in--which had gone for Carter in 76--went heavily for Regan in 80 and has remained overwhelmingly Republican since then. IIRC, this was repeated across the country in 80 and 84, and represents a major political realignment. I'm sure our resident historians will correct me on that if need be.

Really???? Whoda thunk it? So basically they went from being "Reagan Democrats" voting Republican to just voting Republican? How did they swing during the Clinton years?

Republican, though the conty did not support impeachment (and my old House member, Pete King, broke with his party on that issue).

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#44 Delvo

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 12:36 AM

View PostCJ AEGIS, on Feb 20 2006, 08:56 AM, said:

they are effectively old liberals who got fed up by what they perceived as the hypocrisy of the left.  Their goal was to challenge the left by being different from them but not be traditional small government low spending conservatives.  Everything about the neocons and their behavior in power has something to do with their history of being from the left.

View PostRhea, on Feb 20 2006, 11:26 AM, said:

View PostCall Me Robin, on Feb 20 2006, 06:55 AM, said:

<snippage> Because I wouldn't place Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rice, Rumsfeld, or Wolfowitz in that camp.
Me neither. All of the above list are either Texas conservatives or their friends and cronies. They are NOT liberals nor were they ever liberals. The people who voted for them are not liberals (although some moderates in both parties voted for Bush). I don't know where the myth arose that the neocons are disillusioned liberals, but it doesn't compute...

My theory is that somebody used the "disillusioned liberal" explanation once and it has been quoted endlessly all over the Internet until it has been taken for fact.

View PostSpectacles, on Feb 20 2006, 03:40 PM, said:

That's true of some of the original neocons, like Wolfowitz, who, I think used to work on Dem. Scoop Jackson's staff...

I think, though, that there are some conservatives today, especially those who became politically aware during the last decade or so, who are actually neoconservatives--or who have a philosophy not far removed from that of the original neoconservatives.

They're like vampires, werewolves, zombees, and the Borg; identifying where the first ones came from, no matter how accurately, doesn't explain their spread since then, and most of the current ones are not the originals but later infestees.

It seems that most of the ones who've been "turned" in recent years were conservatives before. But it wasn't the "neocons" who turned them. It was that the liberals started attacking the "neocons" in just the same way that they'd already always been attacking real conservatives for years without any distinction between the two groups they were attacking, calling them both the same names, even including referring to  "neocons" as "extreme conservatives", which verbally indicates that the difference between them is only a matter of magnitude, not of type. Many conservatives then made the mistake of either identifying with their fellow attackees as their own kind or letting their habit of defensive reactions and counters to such attacks become an unthinking reflex.

View PostRhea, on Feb 20 2006, 03:17 PM, said:

View PostLin731, on Feb 20 2006, 10:06 AM, said:

Neo Cons are disgruntled ex Liberals??? Who knew? :crazy: How (or more importantly WHY) would one go from one extreme to the other? I'm SO disappointed that liberal goals were not acheived that I'm gonna become the opposite of all I stood for? What purpose exactly would that serve????
That's exactly why the oft-quoted ex-liberal thing makes absolutely no sense at all.
What doesn't make sense at all is characterizing the "neocons" as being the opposite of liberals. They have differences, but also major similarities, more than they have in common with true conservatives.

View PostZwolf666, on Feb 20 2006, 04:33 PM, said:

I don't think neo-cons are or ever were liberals.  They certainly do a lot of things that they've accused "liberals" of doing - expanding the government, creating deficits, meddling in personal lives, etc. - but I don't think they were ever actually liberals.
One who acts liberally is a liberal, whether one is called that by others or onesself or not. Those things you just named are liberal things to do, so one who does them is behaving liberally by doing them.

View PostZwolf666, on Feb 20 2006, 04:33 PM, said:

That's one thing that's causing a lot of internal strife in the Republican party at the moment - an inability to fit the two extremely-different approaches to conservativism into the same party.   It's likely to cause even bigger schisms down the line.
What's united them so far has been a common enemy (in terms of American politics, not wars and terrorism; this situation predates 9.11.01). It's an effective unifier for a while, but when it's the only thing people have in common, it falls apart after a while.

#45 waterpanther

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 08:27 AM

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But it wasn't the "neocons" who turned them. It was that the liberals started attacking the "neocons" in just the same way that they'd already always been attacking real conservatives for years without any distinction between the two groups they were attacking, calling them both the same names, even including referring to "neocons" as "extreme conservatives", which verbally indicates that the difference between them is only a matter of magnitude, not of typ

Twaddle.  They went where they saw the power was.

If one adopted a political stance just because one was so called, then liberals would have turned communist because conservatives called them communists, or--conservatives' favorite current slander--into supporters of Saddam/bin Ladin because conservatives regularly accuse them of being such.

Edited by waterpanther, 21 February 2006 - 08:42 AM.

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#46 Zwolf

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 09:07 AM

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They certainly do a lot of things that they've accused "liberals" of doing - expanding the government, creating deficits, meddling in personal lives, etc. - but I don't think they were ever actually liberals.
One who acts liberally is a liberal, whether one is called that by others or onesself or not. Those things you just named are liberal things to do, so one who does them is behaving liberally by doing them.

Those are supposedly liberal things to do... they're the things conservatives have tended to attribute to liberals.  However, if you look at the results instead of the rhetoric, it doesn't match up.  Clinton was supposedly a big-time liberal, if you believe the Limbaugh line... but he didn't expand the deficit.  He left a surplus.  Also, if you compare him to Bush, he was much, much less of a government-expander and personal-lives-meddler.    Yet the very same people who would nail Clinton to a tree for these supposed "liberal" things he did are all too often the same people who make excuses for Bush when he does them... although when they do it, they claim it's "conservativism."  

Fact is, I think a lot of people are just rooting for their "team" and have no clue what liberalism or conservativism actually are.  Major spokesmen like Limbaugh and Hannity certainly don't seem to.

Cheers,

Zwolf
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But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#47 Ogami

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 06:54 PM

Shalamar wrote:

I agree that it was sexist and more than a little offensive - very denigrating to any woman who bleives in reproductive rights - It definitely wipes out any respect I had for Ogami.

So, to be consistent, you also lost all respect for the Clinton administration when they proudly boasted of their "Nuts and Sluts" strategy of publicly destroying any woman who dared come forward and speak of Bill's sleazy ways.

Democrats spend their entire lives in a perpetual state of "outrage" and of being offended. I laugh at any notion that your respect has been wiped one way or the other.

Abortion rallies are only about abortion-on-demand, using abortion as the first choice in contraception. Unless, Shalamar, you'd like to claim that the millions of abortions that have taken place in this country since Roe V Wade occured due to rape, incest, or the health of the mother.

Cause that wouldn't be true. Have a nice life!

-Ogami

#48 Palisades

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 07:11 PM

^ Youch! Ogami, you don't pull any punches do you?

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#49 Spectacles

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 07:12 PM

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Ogami: So, to be consistent, you also lost all respect for the Clinton administration when they proudly boasted of their "Nuts and Sluts" strategy of publicly destroying any woman who dared come forward and speak of Bill's sleazy ways.

Back before Clinton, when the world was wonderful and everyone was honorable *choke*, David Brock coined the phrase "a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty" to smear Anita Hill for testifying against Clarence Thomas. It made him the toast of Republican Washington. And it's one of the things he regrets now that he's wised up.

Dirty tricks aren't confined to one party or another.


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Abortion rallies are only about abortion-on-demand, using abortion as the first choice in contraception.

A bit of a distortion, isn't it? First choice in contraception? Oooo-Kayyyy.
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#50 Rhea

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 08:31 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Feb 25 2006, 04:12 PM, said:

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Ogami: So, to be consistent, you also lost all respect for the Clinton administration when they proudly boasted of their "Nuts and Sluts" strategy of publicly destroying any woman who dared come forward and speak of Bill's sleazy ways.

Back before Clinton, when the world was wonderful and everyone was honorable *choke*, David Brock coined the phrase "a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty" to smear Anita Hill for testifying against Clarence Thomas. It made him the toast of Republican Washington. And it's one of the things he regrets now that he's wised up.

Dirty tricks aren't confined to one party or another.


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Abortion rallies are only about abortion-on-demand, using abortion as the first choice in contraception.

A bit of a distortion, isn't it? First choice in contraception? Oooo-Kayyyy.


Ogami, you are so full of it. It's pro-choice, not pro-abortion. And they don't hold abortion rallies. And abortion is nobody's first choice in contraception - only an idiot would rely on abortion as a means of birth control.
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#51 Shalamar

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 10:45 PM

Ogami I never said that all abortions are due solely to rape, incest, defense of the mothers health or anything like that.
I know they are not and I find it worrisome and sad that many young women to seem to be useing it as a tool of convienence.

I lost all respect for both political parties long ago. It didn't take Clintons sleezy ways to do that for me.

and I seriously doubt that

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Abortion rallies are only about abortion-on-demand, using abortion as the first choice in contraception.
  

Ogami, I am not a liberal, and have never described myself as such- and I do not live in a perpetual state of outrage in any case or state of offendedness.

You can laugh at my lack of respect for you all you want- I really care very little how you feel.

and may your life be equally nice.
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#52 scherzo

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 12:17 AM

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Fact is, I think a lot of people are just rooting for their "team" and have no clue what liberalism or conservativism actually are. Major spokesmen like Limbaugh and Hannity certainly don't seem to.
Well I'm fairly confident I know what constitutes a conservative view(with a few notable exceptions like the recent UAE flap)and Limbaugh and Hannity are consistently conservative on everything I've ever heard them talk about. Whether this is a good or bad thing is debatable, but there's definitely no question about the political persuasion of 99% of the folks who hate them. Same people who hate Bush with every fiber coincidently.

This gets us to the veiled calculation behind Glenn Greenwald's essay. No one in their right mind believes being MORE conservative would inspire liberal types to erect a statue of Dubya. The tactic of trying to discredit Bush with his conservative base, by criticizing his liberal tendencies, is completely undermined when the complaint is coming from the anti-right.  It's gets tougher still because Part 2 will be convincing people that Kerry would have proved to be a better option for conservatives.  Heh...good luck.

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If one adopted a political stance just because one was so called, then liberals would have turned communist because conservatives called them communists, or--conservatives' favorite current slander--into supporters of Saddam/bin Ladin because conservatives regularly accuse them of being such.
Liberals consider it slander to be called LIBERALS.  :whistle:

BTW "communists" haven't mysteriously vanished off the face of the earth. Marxist philosophy is alive and well. The things is most of it's proponents aren't stupid enough to attach the name of failed theory, to the same old anti_Capitalist dogma. They'll take offense at the term "communist" the way Blacks will take offense if called "colored" or some other anachronistic term. Doesn't change who they are in the slightest. Although to be clear(and make sure I don't get Specs mad at me :pout: )...I don't think most liberals fall into that category. An instinctive and barely containable contempt for America, is usually a reliable symptom.(and almost always quickly denied...so take bloodtests)        

-scherzo
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#53 Delvo

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 07:47 AM

View Postscherzo, on Feb 26 2006, 12:17 AM, said:

Well I'm fairly confident I know what constitutes a conservative view(with a few notable exceptions like the recent UAE flap)and Limbaugh and Hannity are consistently conservative on everything I've ever heard them talk about. Whether this is a good or bad thing is debatable, but there's definitely no question about the political persuasion of 99% of the folks who hate them. Same people who hate Bush with every fiber coincidently.
Ya, but that's just about all it is: coincidence. Those guys are conservative when talking about issues but then defend Bush, who isn't conservative, just because his attackers are their attackers. They were against him in a bunch of ways originally, for months after his first election, when he was governing as a liberal Democrat and they repeatedly called him on it and complained about it. They didn't start ignoring it until after the liberals cranked up their hate rhetoric knob until it broke off.

View Postscherzo, on Feb 26 2006, 12:17 AM, said:

BTW "communists" haven't mysteriously vanished off the face of the earth. Marxist philosophy is alive and well... Although to be clear(and make sure I don't get Specs mad at me :pout: )...I don't think most liberals fall into that category. An instinctive and barely containable contempt for America, is usually a reliable symptom.(and almost always quickly denied...so take bloodtests)
I've recently come to suspect that the defining differences between the "sides" are matters of communication and personality, which makes the conflict as much of a (mis)communication problem as it is a disagreement on topics. And one of the biggest differences (the only one I can think of that might be bigger being how the two sides perceive and use "humor") is what you just described here. Liberals frequently appear, from an outsider's POV, to say something and then object when "accused" of believing exactly what they just said. To outsiders, this objection pretty much looks like "How dare you accuse me of believing X? You're just trying to put words in my mouth! I didn't say X or anything like X! I just said X! Because, you, know, X is true!" Hatred of the USA isn't the only thing you can put in X's spot there; in one recent example that stood out a lot to me, X was a belief in a big government solving society's problems with lots of programs and regulations paid for by high taxes, and in another it was hatred of corporations (which is the one that really made me notice and start pondering this pattern, because someone actually threw in some anti-corporate stuff as a part of a spiel about not really being against corporations!), and the list goes on...

But what in the world does this situation look like from the liberal's POV? The objection, especially since it happens so often on so many subjects, seems to indicate something that their non-liberal audiences seldom think of or notice: that they actually expected their original words to be taken as meaning something other than what it sounded like, as if they seriously thought they had said something else. And if that's the case, then which is the one they really believe: the one they said, or the one they thought they said or were trying to say but somehow just "missed"? Common sense would seem to point to the latter.

Exactly how this works, I still haven't figured out, because whatever conversion/translation process is at work is still too weird and unfathomable to me. Some kind of code or metaphorical system doesn't seem to fit, because they don't seem to even be aware that they're doing it and the effect is too widespread over too many different subjects. I thought of the idea that they say things in ways that sound more extreme than what they're thinking without realizing how extreme what they're saying sounds until they hear it from someone else because they use a different sort of mental "filter" on outgoing stuff said by themselves from the one they use on incoming stuff said by other people, but that explanation can only work in cases where the difference between what they said and what they meant was just a matter of extremeness, and it doesn't explain why they don't usually have the same objection to equally or more extreme stuff said by others of their own kind. I think the best explanation I've come up with so far is that it's cognitive rather than verbal, because in many cases it seems to be a matter of conservatives & libertarians seeing an incident as part of a big general trend or pattern that emerges from many separate similar incidents, and liberals thinking of them only in isolation, not as part of a big picture. ("Yes, I said little-x here in this case and little-x there in that case and some more of those cases, and haven't ever said the opposite in any case, but I don't think of myself as believing in Big-X in general.")

#54 waterpanther

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 09:23 AM

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They were against him in a bunch of ways originally, for months after his first election, when he was governing as a liberal Democrat and they repeatedly called him on it and complained about it. They didn't start ignoring it until after the liberals cranked up their hate rhetoric knob until it broke off.

Would you care to specify, for the record, just how Bush was "governing as a liberal Democrat?"
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#55 Zwolf

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 05:20 PM

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Abortion rallies are only about abortion-on-demand, using abortion as the first choice in contraception.

This is so incredibly overblown and ridiculous on the face of it that I'm frankly surprised you're not embarrassed to say such things.  

"Abortion as the first choice in contraception."  Jeez.  Even when they're legal, you've got to know that abortions are incredibly unpleasant, dangerous, stigmatizing, and expensive.  Claiming that abortion is anyone's first choice in contraception is like claiming getting false teeth is someone's first choice in dental care.


It's a whole lot easier, cheaper, more convenient, and discrete to use a condom, a sponge, foam, a Norplant, or any one of the dozens and dozens of other means of birth control available to the country.

But, since you're claiming that abortion is "the first choice in birth control," you're saying that there are more abortions performed in this country than there are condoms sold?  Fella, there've been occasions where I've gone through around a half-dozen condoms a night with a girl, and zero abortions.   Abortion definitely ain't the "preferred method," and making claims like that is really, really silly.   You do realize that, no?  

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#56 scherzo

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 11:46 PM

Quote

Fella, there've been occasions where I've gone through around a half-dozen condoms a night with a girl, and zero abortions.
I've gone through that many condoms before. But that's because I'm trying to make the perfect balloon giraffe. (hint: make sure they're not USED condoms)

btw why does the sadistic manager of the local 7-11 insist on putting the damn condoms behind the counter, where I have to ask for 'em? It's bad enough buying sensitive materials without having to "discuss" the purchase in detail.  :dontgetit:

-scherzo
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
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#57 Zwolf

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 08:52 AM

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I've gone through that many condoms before.

****** I'm just sayin' it's happened, I'm not sayin' it happens often... :)

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But that's because I'm trying to make the perfect balloon giraffe. (hint: make sure they're not USED condoms)

*** And don't get the lubed kind, 'cuz even though it cuts down on that horrible "squeak squeak" noise, it's almost impossible to get the ears to stay in place.  The reservoir tip does make a cute lil' button nose, though... :)

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btw why does the sadistic manager of the local 7-11 insist on putting the damn condoms behind the counter, where I have to ask for 'em? It's bad enough buying sensitive materials without having to "discuss" the purchase in detail.

I buy mine at Wal-Mart to avoid that.  Either the 7-11 guy has to find his entertainment where he can ("Soooo... gonna make some balloon animals, eh?"), or it's 'cuz 7-11 gets a lot of drunks wandering in and they consider themselves people's last line of defense.  "Ummmm... I see you're thinking of sleeping with the person who came in with you, and I gotta tell you, you might want to wait til you sober up, or you'll end up having to chew your arm off in the morning to avoid waking it up..." :)  God bless Apu!

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#58 Ogami

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 04:01 PM

Zwolf wrote:

It's a whole lot easier, cheaper, more convenient, and discrete to use a condom, a sponge, foam, a Norplant, or any one of the dozens and dozens of other means of birth control available to the country.

And given the deadly sexual diseases one can get when that condom fails, not to mention the diseases the other methods let slip through, it really is best not to rely on abortion or condoms as contraception, is it? Monagamy and abstinence work a whole let better than ripping a person out of a womb or taking anti-HIV drugs after the fact.

Which just torpedoes your entire opening sentence: "This is so incredibly overblown and ridiculous on the face of it that I'm frankly surprised you're not embarrassed to say such things."

Oopsie!

-Ogami

#59 gsmonks

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 09:46 AM

Here's Bush's hidden . . . agenda.

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#60 Call Me Robin

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 02:15 PM

View PostZwolf666, on Feb 27 2006, 10:20 PM, said:

Quote

Abortion rallies are only about abortion-on-demand, using abortion as the first choice in contraception.

This is so incredibly overblown and ridiculous on the face of it that I'm frankly surprised you're not embarrassed to say such things.  

It's also not the topic at hand.  It's weird the way the topic drifted from Bush supporters and their political ideology to abortion, dontcha think?
Of all the varieties of virtues, liberalism is the most beloved.
--Aristotle

The fanatic is not really a stickler to principle. He embraces a cause not primarily because of its justness or holiness but because of his desperate need for something to hold onto.
--Eric Hoffer



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