Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Videos show Bush knew about the severity of Katrina

Katrina Bush Severity

  • Please log in to reply
55 replies to this topic

#21 Palisades

Palisades

    Northern Lights

  • Islander
  • 7,753 posts

Posted 02 March 2006 - 06:35 PM

Rhea said:

What about you, Solar Wind? Are you happy with this President or have you actually done something?

I'm comfy.

If Bush doesn't clear up that port situation or veterans' benefits doubletalk, I might write some letters though.

The WMD intelligence is being investigated.

There was little that could be done to prevent the Iraq war. The bleating pacifists with their splintered objections effectively torpedoed anything the reasoned resistance could do -- especially after that fiasco where the "pacifists" had a not-so-peaceful demonstration and lay down in the streets wearing Nazi symbols.

I'm not convinced there was anything that FEMA could reasonably have been expected to do to significantly lessen the fallout from Katrina. No one should be expected to be able to perfectly predict the future. FEMA said that levee failure was unlikely. Just because they knew the hurricane was a category 5 a day or two before the hurricane hit, doesn't mean that they could reasonably be expected to teleport everyone out of danger. The road system simply isn't designed to handle such an exodus. Also, I just love how the mayor of New Orleans blames everyone except himself. The mayor let his city's buses get submerged underwater. If he knew that disaster was so certain, why didn't he use his buses to bus his citizens out?

Furthermore, no one even knew where Katrina would actually hit until just before it hit. That's why FEMA was fanned out into a huge arc rather than concentrated in the areas that ended up needing the help. It took FEMA a while to get from the prestaging positions to the areas that needed help because the roads were rendered impassable by the category 5 hurricane. Roads don't clear themselves, you know.

Of course, I suppose it feels much better to blame Bush than to blame nature.

Edited by Solar Wind, 02 March 2006 - 10:00 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#22 rponiarski

rponiarski

    Still crazy after all these years...

  • Islander
  • 241 posts

Posted 02 March 2006 - 07:15 PM

View PostSolar Wind, on Mar 2 2006, 04:25 PM, said:

Rhea, rponiarski, and others: I take it you've started petitions to get Bush impeached, collected hundreds of signatures,  and mailed them to your state's Representatives? Have you mailed letters to your Representatives? Have you also written your local newspaper?

Or are you just complaining on some out-of-the-way message board about how the American people don't get their act together and do something?

I have written multiple letters and e-mails to my Congresswoman and 2 Senators. All three are Democrats and therefore pretty powerless at this point. And I have spoken to other voters here in my area, most of whom are getting pretty ticked off at this administration, even my father-in-law, a Reagan Republican (can't stand the spending and the apparent cronyism).

Oh, bye the way, have you heard that the San Francisco sity council has passed a resolution calling for Bush to be impeached? Maybe one day we will have a Congress who will hold this crew accountable for its actions and then we'll see...
Richard M. Poniarski
Everyone is entitled to live in the reality of their own choosing...

#23 Palisades

Palisades

    Northern Lights

  • Islander
  • 7,753 posts

Posted 02 March 2006 - 07:22 PM

^ Leave it up to San Francisco not to know that cities can't impeach Presidents.
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#24 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 02 March 2006 - 07:46 PM

http://news.yahoo.co...atrina_video_19

Quote

The National Hurricane Center's Mayfield told the final briefing before Katrina struck that storm models predicted minimal flooding inside New Orleans during the hurricane but he expressed concerns that counterclockwise winds and storm surges afterward could cause the levees at Lake Pontchartrain to be overrun.

"I don't think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levees will be topped or not but that is obviously a very, very grave concern," Mayfield told the briefing.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#25 Palisades

Palisades

    Northern Lights

  • Islander
  • 7,753 posts

Posted 02 March 2006 - 07:58 PM

^ Okay, the night before Katrina hit, FEMA had concerns about the levees. In that short of a timeframe, what do you expect them to have done?

Better yet, tell me how you think this would have played out differently had Kerry been elected. I see it happening in pretty much the same way.

Edited by Solar Wind, 02 March 2006 - 10:01 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#26 Palisades

Palisades

    Northern Lights

  • Islander
  • 7,753 posts

Posted 02 March 2006 - 09:40 PM

Just noticed this: Mayfield only told Bush that the levees might be overrun, not that they would breach or fail. Nothing to see here, folks. Just some politicians playing partisan politics. Move along, move along.

Edited by Solar Wind, 02 March 2006 - 10:10 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#27 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 02 March 2006 - 10:29 PM

View PostSolar Wind, on Mar 2 2006, 09:40 PM, said:

Just noticed this: Mayfield only told Bush that the levees might be overrun, not that they would breach or fail. Nothing to see here, folks. Just some politicians playing partisan politics. Move along, move along.
I was waiting for someone to say that, because there is a big catch in that thinking.

When a dike/levee is topped, the next thing you can expect to happen is that gets washed out from behind by the water rushing over the edge and down its back. Ask people who lived within a few miles of almost any river in the Midwest in the summer of 1993. I've seen it on video that was taken not far from me and I've seen the results in person. An overrunning of a dike is a breach, unless it's some special rare kind whose top and back are designed and built to resist precisely that, and I'm not aware of any that exist. (It's easier to just built a standard one-sided one taller to avoid it.)

Edited by Delvo, 02 March 2006 - 10:31 PM.


#28 Palisades

Palisades

    Northern Lights

  • Islander
  • 7,753 posts

Posted 02 March 2006 - 10:35 PM

^ Yeah, but Mayfield has admitted he never told Bush that the levees might breach or fail. Consequently, while Bush might not be too up on civil engineering, I see no evidence that he lied about the levees.
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#29 Cheile

Cheile

    proud J/Cer ~ ten years and counting

  • Islander
  • 10,776 posts

Posted 02 March 2006 - 11:39 PM

while i don't care at all for our so-called president or most of the stuff he does, exactly what can one expect him to do THE NIGHT before a 5am-6am whopper b*tch of a hurricane makes landfall??  especially when a storm expert is sitting there going "maybe" not "yes it will".  should he have gone out to the shore and stood there with his hands out and try to push Katrina back?

there is blame to be laid on him for the people he hired.  HOWEVER those in the city should have had better evacuation plans for areas such as the Ninth Ward.  there was waaaaaaay too much allowing these people to sit around and say "i ain't goin'".  it's likely the body count would have been much lower if they'd been MADE to leave.

Posted Image


"Andromeda may be over but it's not dead. Not as long as we have fanfic writers dedicated to keeping it alive.  Whether you accept everything as canon or stop at a certain point. Whether you accept and enjoy Nu Drom or only accept Classic Drom, it will never be over.  Not as long as we have each other [and Beka], who binds us all together." ~ Mary Rose

Twitter * Facebook * ExIsle at Facebook

icon by mercscilla @ LJ

#30 Corwin

Corwin

    fortitudo ac honor

  • Islander
  • 1,695 posts

Posted 03 March 2006 - 02:00 AM

There is a big difference with "some overflowing of the levee" and "a levy breach".  The Levy was not actually breached until the next day when a barge impacted the levy and broke it.  Before that, there was only some storm surge that went over the levy and no major flooding, only localized.

I don't think anyone could have anticipated an actual Levee Breach.


Corwin
"The Enemy is upon us, so Lock and Load, Brothers.  The Emperor Calls and the Forces of Chaos must be driven back.  Though all of us will fall, none of us shall fail!"

#31 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 03 March 2006 - 07:02 AM

House Republicans recently released their report on the botched preparations and response to Katrina. It's a remarkably fair assessment, with blame to go around.

http://a257.g.akamai...execsummary.pdf

They claim the root of the problem was poor communication and poor leadership, which caused the state and federal bureaucracies to lumber. The catch-phrase they use to describe the debacle is "failure of initiative."

Regarding the president, the House GOP report says:

Quote

"Earlier presidential involvement might have resulted in a more effective response."

This is primarily because, they say, only presidential orders could cut through the red tape.

That's interesting because we now know that the much-maligned Brownie was extremely worried that this was going to be "a bad one" and that they weren't as prepared as they needed to be. He said as much, if you go back and read the excerpts from the transcript.
He in fact said he wanted to cut through red tape when the storm hit to be able to respond as quickly as necessary.

Bush, who was present but asked no questions, seemed to be oblivious to the concerns expressed by Brownie in the meeting. His only remark was to make a stump-speech-like comment about how the federal government was prepared.

I remember in the days before Katrina hit, we had a thread going here. There was much concern about the storm, including the real possibility that the levees would be breached (or topped or cracked or whatever) and New Orleans would flood into a "toxic soup."

FEMA had just the year before conducted a federal-state drill on "Hurricane Pam," a simulation of NO getting hit by a Cat 5.

Why on earth the lessons learned from that simulation weren't applied, I don't know--except that bureaucracies tend to be inept, especially if no one grabs them by the horns and gives orders. Bureaucrats are remarkably passive creatures who'll happily go through drills but are reluctant to assume responsibility when push comes to shove. (Which is pretty much what the House GOP report says, too.)

To me, one of the most remarkably passive creatures at that meeting was our president--as he was in the days immediately after.

Contrast the government's response to Katrina with their response to the hurricane that bore down on Texas a month later. Fortunately, they learned from the real thing the lessons they should have learned from the (probably expensive) simulation of Hurricane Pam.

Unfortunately, because federal and state response was so slow in the aftermath of Katrina, many people died while waiting to be rescued--and that's the heartbreak. The Coast Guard did its damnedest, but just about everyone else was AWOL.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#32 CJ AEGIS

CJ AEGIS

    Warship Guru!

  • Islander
  • 6,847 posts

Posted 03 March 2006 - 08:12 AM

View PostSpectacles, on Mar 3 2006, 07:02 AM, said:

The Coast Guard did its damnedest, but just about everyone else was AWOL.
USS Bataan was there riding the storm at sea and chased Katrina in to shore.  Her CO pushed his luck in about every way he could to render assistance.  Unlike the Coasties the Navy really doesn’t have as much mandate to dive right into disaster management without some serious legal ramifications.  That said the Navy had additional medical personnel on her as soon as the seas calmed down and her helicopters were there with the Coast Guard pulling people off buildings.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#33 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 03 March 2006 - 08:16 AM

Quote

I don't think anyone could have anticipated an actual Levee Breach.

Gee, that sounds familiar. . ..

Funny, I "heard" people "anticipating an actual levee breach" all over the internet before it actually happened.
Posted Image

#34 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 03 March 2006 - 08:54 AM

By the way, here's a report on the causes of breaches in the levies:

http://www.nola.com/...28141231650.xml

No mention of their being hit by a barge, but considerable concern that there were failures caused by poor construction and repairs.

Quote

Floodwall breaches linked to design flaws inundated parts of the city that otherwise would have stayed dry, turning neighborhoods into death traps and causing massive damage. In other areas, poorly engineered gaps and erosion of weak construction materials accelerated and deepened flooding already under way, hampering rescue efforts in the wake of the storm.

These problems turned an already deadly disaster into a wider man-made catastrophe and have made rebuilding and resettlement into far tougher and more expensive challenges.

That's the picture that emerges from investigations of the levee system by teams sponsored by the state government, the American Society of Civil Engineers and the National Science Foundation, as well as from dozens of interviews with local residents, officials and engineers.

Experts say the New Orleans flood of 2005 should join the space shuttle explosions and the sinking of the Titanic on history's list of ill-fated disasters attributable to human mistakes.

The evidence points to critical failures in design and construction, as well as a lack of project oversight and responsibility that allowed small problems to metastasize into fatal errors. Twisted lines of authority led to cursory inspections, communications snafus and even confusion about such basic information as wall dimensions.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#35 G-man

G-man

    Is there a problem?

  • Moderator
  • 8,596 posts

Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:03 AM

On top of all of that ...

In the years prior to Katrina, FEMA was systematically stripped of manpower, funding, and resources that it needed to do its job by Homeland Security which felt that it didn't need them.  And Bush did nothing.

In the years prior to Katrina, NO had been agitating to get the levees along Lake Pontchartrain improved (as they were Federal, not state or local) as they were considered inadequate to protect NO from floods.  And Bush did nothing.

In the years prior to Katrina, Bush was sending National Guard units to Iraq and keeping them there, units that would've been among the first responders during Katrina.

In the years prior to Katrina, Bush was asking for hundreds of billions of dollars for the continuing operations in Iraq (you remember the photo op of him on the aircraft carrier with the banner pronouncing "Mission Accomplished"?); monies that he wasn't asking for such programs as funding FEMA or improving the levee system around NO.

This, isn't simply a matter of "he did nothing" in the hours before Katrina.  This is a matter of he did nothing in the years before Katrina that could've prevented the relief efforts from being the Cluster F--- that it was.  And to claim that no-one actually said the words "breach" or "failure" during the briefing and therefore the president wasn't actually warned what would happen is the lamest excuse I've ever heard.  He was being told that problems were brewing, the people briefing him don't want to be labeled alarmist so they are filling out their warnings with what might happen and what was probable, and Bush is looking for assurances so he chooses to ignore their warnings of dire happenings and focused instead on the idea that it might not happen.  

It doesn't matter how many warnings you sound, if the president doesn't want to hear them, and your superiors are more concerned with keeping you in your place than actually dealing with a looming crisis ... whose fault is it?  According to the Bush Administion, it was Brown's, the guy who was battling to get more resources (of which he was denied), sounding the warnings (which were ignored), and basically was set to resign in protest when Katrina hit.

And considering that FEMA was a top-notch disaster relief organization through out Clinton's terms in office when it was a cabinet level post, isn't it amazing how inept it became under Bush when he decided to incorporate it into Homeland Security?

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself

Edited by G-man, 03 March 2006 - 09:05 AM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#36 Palisades

Palisades

    Northern Lights

  • Islander
  • 7,753 posts

Posted 03 March 2006 - 11:20 AM

^ FEMA told Bush that the models couldn't predict with any confidence that the levees wouldn't be overtopped. They said that if the levees were overtopped, New Orleans might experience some flooding. That's a far cry from saying, "There's a good chance the levees will breach and half the city will be underwater!"

What's to say that FEMA would have handled Katrina any better had Clinton still been President? Katrina is pretty much the worst disaster in American history. Just because FEMA handled more moderate disasters with aplomb during Clinton's presidency doesn't mean that FEMA wouldn't have faltered to a similar extent had a Katrina-level catastrophe happened on Clinton's watch.

Edited by Solar Wind, 03 March 2006 - 11:24 AM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#37 Rhea

Rhea

  • Islander
  • 16,433 posts

Posted 03 March 2006 - 11:50 AM

View PostCheile, on Mar 2 2006, 08:39 PM, said:

while i don't care at all for our so-called president or most of the stuff he does, exactly what can one expect him to do THE NIGHT before a 5am-6am whopper b*tch of a hurricane makes landfall?? especially when a storm expert is sitting there going "maybe" not "yes it will". should he have gone out to the shore and stood there with his hands out and try to push Katrina back?


He could have not lied about what he knew. That's not only idiotic, it's lame. He was warned about the severity of the storm, and then acted afterward as if it was all news to him.

And he was the one who needed his precious Homeland Security Nazis, and other departments, notably FEMA, were stripped to provide funding for them.

I agree that there's plenty of blame to go around, but it starts at the top - oh, wait, except "the buck stops here" apparently has only applied to all the other presidents except the shrub. who I've never heard say anything was his fault and who always tells us everything is hunky dory. :rolleyes:

Edited by Rhea, 03 March 2006 - 11:52 AM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#38 G-man

G-man

    Is there a problem?

  • Moderator
  • 8,596 posts

Posted 03 March 2006 - 12:06 PM

View PostSolar Wind, on Mar 3 2006, 04:20 PM, said:

^ FEMA told Bush that the models couldn't predict with any confidence that the levees wouldn't be overtopped.

Translation: "There's no guarantee the levees will hold!"  Gee.  

Quote

They said that if the levees were overtopped, New Orleans might experience some flooding. That's a far cry from saying, "There's a good chance the levees will breach and half the city will be underwater!"

This is an IF-THEN statement.  If the levees are overtopped then New Orleans will be flooded.  If the levees are not overtopped then New Orleans won't be flooded.

So, think about this:

"There's no guarantee the levees will hold!  If the levees are overtopped, low lying areas of New Orleans will be flooded."

Is this, or is this not, a clear warning that a disaster was in the offing?

Quote

What's to say that FEMA would have handled Katrina any better had Clinton still been President? Katrina is pretty much the worst disaster in American history. Just because FEMA handled more moderate disasters with aplomb during Clinton's presidency doesn't mean that FEMA wouldn't have faltered to a similar extent had a Katrina-level catastrophe happened on Clinton's watch.

They wouldn't have faltered for the following two reasons.

1) FEMA a cabinet level post.  They wouldn't have to wade through the managerial overhead that was loaded onto them when they were arbitrarily assigned to be part of DHS.  FEMA, under Clinton, had the influence to cut through the red tape, commandeer resources from other organizations, and get things done.  By Katrina, this was no longer the case.

2) By the time of Katrina, FEMA was a bare shadow of its former self in the Clinton Administration.  It no longer had the manpower, influence, or resources to devote, and those resources that it tried to muster had to go through channels before they would be committed.

Which brings us to why Katrina is the worst disaster in American history.  On top of the flooding and winds, a bad situation was made worst because of the extraordinary ineptitude displayed by the administration in responding to warnings and the actual event itself.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#39 Kosh

Kosh

    Criag Ferguson For President!

  • Islander
  • 11,147 posts

Posted 03 March 2006 - 12:16 PM

View PostSolar Wind, on Mar 2 2006, 07:58 PM, said:

^ Okay, the night before Katrina hit, FEMA had concerns about the levees. In that short of a timeframe, what do you expect them to have done?

Better yet, tell me how you think this would have played out differently had Kerry been elected. I see it happening in pretty much the same way.





Bush lied about being informed. A few things could have been done better, but as the Governor of Mississippi said, even if you eleminate the damage in one state, it's still the biggest storm ever to hit the coast of the USA.

Kerry couldn't have done anything else, and we'll mnever know weather he would have lied about it afterward.


Any decent engineer should have known that if the levees had been topped, there was a chance of one of them failing.  Hard for me to believe there were no engineers on the job. Plus the weather guy in the tapes called the situation with the Levees "very very grave". So the Adminsistration was informed, and they are on tape, both Bush and the Fema director, being briefed and making it very clear that they understood how bad things could get.
Can't Touch This!!

#40 Palisades

Palisades

    Northern Lights

  • Islander
  • 7,753 posts

Posted 03 March 2006 - 12:18 PM

G-man said:

This is an IF-THEN statement. If the levees are overtopped then New Orleans will be flooded.
To what extent though? Just a few neighborhoods or half the city? That's the part that the briefing left unclear.


Quote

They wouldn't have faltered for the following two reasons.

FEMA a cabinet level post.
Really? The Defense Department is a cabinet-level post, and it is most definitely faltering in the Iraq War.


Quote

By the time of Katrina, FEMA was a bare shadow of its former self in the Clinton Administration. It no longer had the manpower, influence, or resources to devote, and those resources that it tried to muster had to go through channels before they would be committed.
Everything in the government has to go through channels. Regardless of what the chain-of-command looked like, you still have to get the roads cleared, and that takes time.


Quote

Which brings us to why Katrina is the worst disaster in American history.
A Category 5 hurricane hit a city that's below sea level. If the levees breached, catastrophe was certain. The only thing that could have been done was to get more people out before the storm hit. Most of the people who wanted to leave got out. The people who stayed did so largely because they couldn't afford to leave. They were barely making ends meet and felt like they had to go to work that day.

Edited by Solar Wind, 03 March 2006 - 12:22 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Katrina, Bush, Severity

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users