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Afghan faces death penelty for Converting to Christainity

MIddle East Afghanistan Death Penalty Converts to Christianity

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#1 sierraleone

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 01:15 PM

http://www.chron.com...ld/3737107.html

If I understand correctly, you are allowed to be of any religion, but to convert from Muslim to Christain (or to any other religion I suppose, as long as you were Muslim previously) is a crime. You can convert the other way, and of course no problem.

*sigh* Freedom reigns in Afghanistan, if you're a muslim.

(I suppose thats not quite true either, but it was so fun to say it)

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ABUL, AFGHANISTAN - Abdul Rahman told his family he was a Christian. He told the neighbors, bringing shame upon his home. But then he told the police, and he could no longer be ignored.

Now, in a major test of Afghanistan's fledgling court system, Rahman, 42, faces the death penalty for abandoning Islam for Christianity. Prosecutors say he should die. So do his family, his jailers, even the judge. Rahman has no lawyer.
...
Rahman's trial, which began Thursday, is thought to be the first of its kind in the country.
...
Even under the more moderate government now in power, Islamic law is supposed to be followed, and many believe it requires the death penalty for anyone who converts to another religion.

That last two parts just warms me over....

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"He is my son," said Manan, crying. "But if a son does not care about the dignity of his family, the dignity of his father, God can take him away. You cannot make anything out of such a son. He is useless."

If he was talking about further up in the article:

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Rahman and his family have a history of problems. Manan said his son never worked, beat up family members and seemed mentally ill.

I couuld understand, beating up family members? Doesn't sound like a good Christain to me.
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#2 enTranced

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 01:28 PM

Words fail me.

Scary beyond measure.

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#3 offworlder

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 01:46 PM

two things here:

he moved back, so it seems he didnt know the charges, that he'd be arrested, or the penalty/sentence for such charge .........

and, the story doesn't report: what does mr bush's friend, mr karzai, say on this? :blink:
"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#4 sierraleone

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 03:41 PM

This would be funny if it wasn't so god-damn scary.

From this article:
http://abcnews.go.co...=1746943&page=1

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The post-Taliban constitution recognizes Islam as Afghanistan's religion, and decrees that Islam's Sharia law applies when a case is not covered by specific legislation. The prosecutor says under Sharia law, Abdul Rahman must die.

The judge, however, holds hopes for a solution.

"We will ask him if he has changed his mind about being a Christian," Mawlazezadah says. "If he has, we will forgive him, because Islam is a religion of tolerance."

Does the Judge not understand the contradiction in what he said? I'd be laughing it I didn't feel like crying.

And this doens't help my mood either :( :

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Rahman's case contradicts Article 7 of Afghanistan's constitution, which assures that "the state shall abide by … the Universal Declaration of Human Rights." That declaration states that "everyone has the right to freedom of thought … to change his religion or belief."

However, the constitution also states that Islamic law takes precedence over secular law and international treaties. Furthermore, the supreme court of that country has the right to veto certain provisions and interpret compliance with such treaties.

How can they have such contradictiions? Afghan's Constitution's Article 7 says they shall abide by the Universal Declaration of Humann Rights, which includes choice (and changing thereof) of ones religions.

But it also states Islamic law takes precedence over Secular law *and* international treaties.

Frell, you could have people trying to fight every law in court using shoehorned Islamic law.

Damn it

Edited by sierraleone, 21 March 2006 - 03:46 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#5 Zaugur Anasazi

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 04:06 PM

Afghanistan is in a transition period.Such phenomenons should not be considered strange.I mean,the country was in a constant war for years.They do not even have a proper capital.Most of khabul is ruins.
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#6 sierraleone

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 04:09 PM

^ while true, I still don't like the idea of this man paying for this life for it.

And apparently, reading other articles, this came up in a custody dispute over his children. How disgusting. Though, reading the articles, considering how long he was gone, and the law tilting in father's favour in Muslim countries from what I remember, it might have been a desperate act on the mother's or other relatives behalf.

:(
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#7 Zaugur Anasazi

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 04:16 PM

I know it's disgusting.But Afganistan was isolated for many decades.No roads,no sign of infrastructure,no proper houses but hutches,mines everywhere,no electricity.They pretty much have nothing.We cannot expect much from them in a small period of time.

Edited by Zaugur Anasazi, 21 March 2006 - 04:17 PM.

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#8 G1223

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 04:42 PM

You think this is limited to Afghanistan? Remember that there are books in Islam that demand that people convert or die.
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#9 Zaugur Anasazi

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 04:46 PM

The language in which  Islam is written is quite different and more complicated in it's meaning than the average Arabic.So it's very easily for an average person to misinterpret it.Generally,Islam is considered to be a faith of peace.There is a difference between an Islamist and a Muslim.
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#10 Chakoteya

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 05:06 PM

The death penalty only applies in Sharia law if the person who has turned from Islam is also an enemy of the State. That's what they'll have to prove to kill him - treason.
http://www.timesonli...2095263,00.html

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Mr Rahman is being prosecuted for an attack on Islam, the punishment for which, under the draft constitution established in 2004, is death.

And the international fuss might eventually have an impact, along with the commentary from respected Islamic scholars around the world who are saying he mustn't die just for his apostacy of 14 years ago.  President Karzai would have to ratify the death penalty if it does get handed down, and he's not keen on upsetting the coalition just yet.
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#11 Schmokie_Dragon

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 12:53 PM

Death for converting. Hmmm. Something does not compute.
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#12 offworlder

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 08:24 PM

hhmm, somebody's trying to do something about this,

http://www.ctv.ca/se...60322?hub=World

remember I said what does mr karzai say? well here's mr harper seeing what he can do, and what mr karzai can do, in this mix of human rights law and sharia law.
"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#13 Spectacles

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 08:28 PM

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sierra: How can they have such contradictiions? Afghan's Constitution's Article 7 says they shall abide by the Universal Declaration of Humann Rights, which includes choice (and changing thereof) of ones religions.

But it also states Islamic law takes precedence over Secular law *and* international treaties.

I think the contradictions exist because the Constitution is playing to two audiences: the West and the Afghans. The coalition of nations that routed the Taliban and remains today (NATO is taking over, by the way) would insist on Article 7.

The Afghans would insist on Sharia. It looks like Sharia trumps international declarations of human rights when the law is implemented.

A real heartwarmer is that a similar contradiction or two exist in the new Iraqi Constitution. Of course, they don't have a functioning government yet with which implement the laws, so it's going to interesting to see how it plays out--IF it plays out.
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#14 Godeskian

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 01:23 AM

Ah, I do so love that peaceful religion we call Islam.

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#15 Chakoteya

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 07:54 AM

It's not just a religion - it's a social and political system.

That's what we have a problem getting our heads around.

It's also how radicals can justify blowing up the public to further the Nation of Islam. They have to reach for it, but they obviously manage it the way they can get recruits.
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#16 Lin731

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 11:21 AM

That's the problem with theocracies in general because when you combine the two you don't just have a religion anymore you have law based on it. So it doesn't matter what (if any) religious beliefs you have or don't have your behavior will be dictated by the religious based law of the land. People here wonder why folks get twitchy over church/state issues. This article is a shining example of why it's a dangerous mix.
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#17 BklnScott

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 03:51 PM

Yet that mix is as intrinsic to the Muslim World's definition of government as Separation of Church and State is to ours in America. This is a real problem and is one of the baseline reasons why Mr. Bush's democratize-the-mideast project was doomed from the start.  Can these nations have strong, transparent, friendly, benevolent governments?  Sure.  Can they have American-style secular governments with all the above traits?? H-E-double hockey sticks, no.  

Edited by _ph, 23 March 2006 - 03:52 PM.

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#18 BklnScott

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 05:03 PM

From the AP via Andrew Sullivan's blog:

Quote

Senior Muslim clerics said Thursday that Rahman must be executed and if the government caves into Western pressure and frees him they will incite people to "pull him into pieces." Four senior clerics interviewed by The Associated Press in their mosques in Kabul agreed Rahman deserved to be killed for his conversion. "He is not crazy. He went in front of the media and confessed to being a Christian," said Hamidullah, chief cleric at Haji Yacob Mosque.
"The government is scared of the international community. But the people will kill him if he is freed."
"He is not mad. The government is playing games. The people will not be fooled," said Abdul Raoulf, cleric at Herati Mosque. "This is humiliating for Islam ... Cut off his head."

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#19 Zaugur Anasazi

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 05:42 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Mar 23 2006, 06:23 AM, said:

Ah, I do so love that peaceful religion we call Islam.
Every religion has it's "bad" sides.Do we forgot "peacefull" crusaders?Or the Jesuits?Or the Zionists(Jews)?
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#20 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 01:03 AM

View PostZaugur Anasazi, on Mar 23 2006, 05:42 PM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Mar 23 2006, 06:23 AM, said:

Ah, I do so love that peaceful religion we call Islam.
Every religion has it's "bad" sides.Do we forgot "peacefull" crusaders?Or the Jesuits?Or the Zionists(Jews)?
Any ideology has its bad side…
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