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Afghan faces death penelty for Converting to Christainity

MIddle East Afghanistan Death Penalty Converts to Christianity

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#41 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 04:37 PM

View Post_ph, on Mar 24 2006, 04:26 PM, said:

That said, mushroom clouds were not what I had in mind.  Nukes solve nothing.  Their only use is to deter other nuclear armed countries from launching a first-strike against us.[/font][/size]
Nukes pretty much saved most likely a couple million people from dieing needless deaths in the invasion of Japan.  Nukes may not have been suited for Afghanistan in any stretch but they do have a use for certain situations.
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#42 BklnScott

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:16 PM

View PostCJ AEGIS, on Mar 24 2006, 04:37 PM, said:


View Post_ph, on Mar 24 2006, 04:26 PM, said:

That said, mushroom clouds were not what I had in mind.  Nukes solve nothing.  Their only use is to deter other nuclear armed countries from launching a first-strike against us.
Nukes pretty much saved most likely a couple million people from dieing needless deaths in the invasion of Japan.  Nukes may not have been suited for Afghanistan in any stretch but they do have a use for certain situations.


I understand there's argument over whether that was necessary even to this day, but in any case, the nuclear status quo today is, IMO, so different as to make comparison to Fat Man and Little Boy unrevealing.

Back then, we alone possessed nuclear weapons.  There was no chance that our dropping the bomb on Japan would result in another country deciding to drop the bomb on us--or on a troublesome neighbor of their own.  Now, no such guarantee exists.  

If we use ours, what's to stop Pakistan from using theirs?  Or North Korea (which has missiles that could actually hit us, I believe)? Or Russia?  Or Israel?  Et al ad nauseum.  

Edited by _ph, 24 March 2006 - 08:40 PM.

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#43 waterpanther

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:44 PM

View PostChaddee, on Mar 24 2006, 12:24 PM, said:

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Mar 24 2006, 06:25 AM, said:

And THIS is suppose to be a LIBERATED Afghanistan???

Call me a cynic but we would've been better of just nuking the place after 9-11. At that time we would've been justified, and we wouldn't have had to send our soldiers over there to die....just so they can kill an INNOCENT man, all because he wants to switch religions.

And they say Islam is a peaceful religion....BS it is!


Considering Afghanistan is a country and may be harboring terrorists but is not of itself the cause of September 11, that would be an act of war if not genocide.

Al-Quida perpertrated September 11.

They are an organisation. An analogy would be the IRA in Ireland. Would you expect the UK to have nuked Ireland for their ations in the 80's?

You're targetting the wrong people there.

Truth and reason will get you nowhere in this debate, Chadee.  ;)
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#44 WildChildCait

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 07:15 PM

*shrug*, people will believe what they will believe, Waterpanther.
Personally, people can tell me I'm wrong till they're blue in the face, but unless someone can point out to me how Sinn Fein is not in Irelands goverment the same way Al-Quada was in Aghanistans and how this is somehow not analogous, I'm going to stick with my point of view. Just repeating it proves nothing.

But hey, current propaganda is against me here.
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#45 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 07:40 PM

View Post_ph, on Mar 24 2006, 04:26 PM, said:

[font=courier new][size=2]You must be confusing me with someone else.  I'm the one who wrote:

_ph said:

So, yes, invading Afghanistan in response to 9/11 was entirely justified. I only wish we had done so on a much more massive scale

I was kidding when there, wasn't serious. Hence the  ;)  at the end.
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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#46 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 07:43 PM

View Post_ph, on Mar 24 2006, 06:16 PM, said:

If we use ours, what's to stop Pakistan from using theirs?  Or North Korea (which has missiles that could actually hit us, I believe)? Or Russia?  Or Israel?  Et al ad nauseum.  [/font][/size]

And what's to stop those countries from doing so anyway? Do you honestly think that they share our values? Or our concerns?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#47 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 07:44 PM

View PostRhea, on Mar 24 2006, 01:09 PM, said:

Or the Inquisition, where several million women were mudered?  We've probably killed far more people in the name of Christianity than they have.

People sometimes do really stupid things in the name of religion. Given the history of our own religion, I don't see how we can point the finger at the Muslims - at least, the normal Muslims - the terrorists are another story.

Good point.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#48 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 07:46 PM

View PostChaddee, on Mar 24 2006, 07:15 PM, said:

*shrug*, people will believe what they will believe, Waterpanther.
Personally, people can tell me I'm wrong till they're blue in the face, but unless someone can point out to me how Sinn Fein is not in Irelands goverment the same way Al-Quada was in Aghanistans and how this is somehow not analogous, I'm going to stick with my point of view. Just repeating it proves nothing.

But hey, current propaganda is against me here.

To be honest, never heard of the boy. But, then again, never heard of Bin laden or Al-Queda til after 9-11.

So, to be fair, I'll google him and see what I find. You, perish the thought, could be right.  ;)
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#49 Rhea

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 07:56 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Mar 24 2006, 04:46 PM, said:

View PostChaddee, on Mar 24 2006, 07:15 PM, said:

*shrug*, people will believe what they will believe, Waterpanther.
Personally, people can tell me I'm wrong till they're blue in the face, but unless someone can point out to me how Sinn Fein is not in Irelands goverment the same way Al-Quada was in Aghanistans and how this is somehow not analogous, I'm going to stick with my point of view. Just repeating it proves nothing.

But hey, current propaganda is against me here.

To be honest, never heard of the boy. But, then again, never heard of Bin laden or Al-Queda til after 9-11.

Here's their website:
http://sinnfein.ie/introduction

When you google Sinn Fein, you'll discover they have historically (the words mean "we ourselves" or "ourselves alone") been an arm of the IRA. The website doesn't really discuss the real history of Sinn Fein at all.

Here you go!

From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Sinn_Féin


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The Sinn Féin movement crystallised around the propaganda campaign of Arthur Griffith, a nationalist typesetter, and William Rooney, a republican office clerk, both of whom were extremely active in Dublin's nationalist clubs at the beginning of the 20th century. In his account of the movement's early years the propagandist Aodh de Blácam says that Sinn Féin "was not a party: it was the amorphous propaganda of the Gaelicised young men and women". Griffith was first and foremost a newspaperman with an impressive network of friends in the Dublin printing industry. His propaganda newspapers, the United Irishman and Sinn Féin, channeled the enormous energy of the self-help generation into an unorthodox political project based on the Austro-Hungarian dual monarchy of 1867 and the theories of the German nationalist economist Friedrich List. Tapping into the growing self awareness of an Irish identity which was reflected in movements like the Gaelic Athletic Association, the Gaelic League (Conradh na nGaeilge) and in the founding of the Abbey Theatre, he created a loose federation of nationalist clubs and associations which competed with John Redmond's Irish Parliamentary Party to embody the aspirations of 20th century nationalists.

Most historians opt for November 28, 1905 as a founding date because it was on this date that Griffith first presented his 'Sinn Féin Policy'. In his writings, Griffith declared that the Act of Union of Great Britain and Ireland in 1800 was illegal and that, consequently, the Anglo-Irish dual monarchy which existed under Grattan's Parliament and the so-called Constitution of 1782 was still in effect.

Though Sinn Féin had a high name recognition factor among voters it attracted minimal support. By 1915 it was, in the words of one of Griffith's colleagues, "on the rocks", so insolvent financially that it could not pay the rent on its party headquarters in Harcourt Street in Dublin. It was rescued by the mistaken belief among the British administration running Ireland from Dublin Castle that it had been behind the 1916 Rising, an unsuccessful attempt to establish an Irish Republic.

The Easter Rising
Sinn Féin was wrongly blamed by the British for the Easter Rising, with which it had no association, apart from a desire of separation stronger than Home Rule — the leaders of the Rising were certainly looking for more than Dual Monarchy. Any group that disagreed with mainstream constitutional politics was branded 'Sinn Féin' by British commentators. The term 'Sinn Féin Rebellion' was also used by the Irish media, the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC), the Dublin Metropolitan Police (DMP) and even by a few of those involved in the Rising.

Surviving leaders of the Rising under Éamon de Valera took over the party. De Valera replaced Griffith as president. It nearly split between its monarchist and republican wings at its 1917 Ard Fheis (conference) until, in a compromise motion, it proposed the establishment of an independent republic, after which the people could decide whether they wanted a monarchy or republic, subject to the condition that if they chose a monarchy, no member of the British Royal Family could serve as monarch.

Sinn Féin was boosted by the anger over the execution of Rising leaders, even though before the executions, the Roman Catholic hierarchy, the Irish Independent newspaper (the biggest selling daily newspaper in Ireland then and now) and many local authorities actually called for the mass execution of Rising leaders. Yet even that public sympathy did not give Sinn Féin decisive electoral advantage, It fought a tough battle with the Irish Parliamentary Party under John Redmond, later John Dillon, with each side winning by-elections. It was only after the Conscription Crisis, when Britain threatened to impose conscription to boost its war effort that support decisively swung behind Sinn Féin.

Basically when Michael Collins signed the treaty that split Ireland into two countries Sinn Fein split into pro- and anti-treaty groups. In fact, it is believed by some that the anti-treaty group assassinated Michael Collins.

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A short but bitter Irish Civil War (June 1922 – April 1923) erupted between the supporters of the Treaty and its opponents. De Valera resigned as President of the Republic and sided with the anti-treatyites. The victorious pro-treaty "Free Staters", who amounted to a majority of Sinn Féin TDs and a majority of the electorate, set up the Irish Free State. The pro-treaty Sinn Féin TDs changed the name of the party to Cumann na nGaedhael, subsequently merging with the Centre Party and the Blueshirts in 1933 to form Fine Gael.

Having temporarily suspended armed action in the Free State, the movement split again with the departure (March 1926) of its leader Eamon de Valera, after having lost a motion to abandon abstention if the statement of "Fidelity to the King" were abolished. He subsequently founded the Fianna Fáil with fellow advocates of participation in constitutional politics, and entered the Irish parliament (Dáil Éireann) the following year, forming a government in 1932.

Basically they're child of the IRA, although at present they are the only party to hold seats in both the Northern Ireland and Irish parliaments, so maybe those radicals will end up helping to unite Ireland instead of destroy it.

Edited by Rhea, 24 March 2006 - 08:00 PM.

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#50 BklnScott

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 08:12 PM

View PostChaddee, on Mar 24 2006, 10:14 AM, said:


View Post_ph, on Mar 24 2006, 02:57 PM, said:



That said, I vehemently disagree with your assertion that Afghanistan "is not of itself the cause of September 11." (Not to mention, your IRA analogy is hopelessly wrong-headed.)  

The truth is that the Taliban--and therefore, Afghanistan--were a wholly owned subsidiary of Al Qaeda.  Smart money says Mullah Omar is at his boss's side to this day.  So, yes, invading Afghanistan in response to 9/11 was entirely justified.  I only wish we had done so on a much more massive scale -- in which case, Bin Laden would most likely be dead, his organization decapitated, and the Taliban wiped out.  



You are in your full right to disagree, but my analogy is not wrong, nor am I wrong-headed - an offensive term in an of itself.

I apologize for offending you, but for the record, it was your analogy I described as wrong-headed.  


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Your truth. Not my truth. Your truth smells liek propaganda to me.


Well, we don't really get to have our own truths.  Do you really mean to say there was something wrong with us invading Afghanistan after 9/11?  

Bin Laden owned the Taliban.  This is fact.  It is not in dispute. Wikipedia on Osama bin Laden. The money quote:

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bin Laden forged a close relationship with some of the leaders of Afghanistan's new Taliban government, notably Mullah Mohammed Omar. Bin Laden supported the Taliban government with financial and paramilitary assistance and, in 1997, he moved to Kandahar, the Taliban stronghold.


Omar sat on their councils.  He was part of it.  Ergo his government was part of it.  His country was part of it.  Omar acknowledges that, it seems strange that you won't.      

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BTW, need I mention Sein Feinn, the political arm of the IRA which is in government? Totally wrong? They are the politics for a militant organisation, how is this not similar to Al-Quada and Afghanistan?


Because the Taliban was not the political arm of Al Qaeda--The reverse is closer to the truth.  The Taliban was an army.  And Omar isn't the brains (aka, the politics, the ideology) behind anything.  The "brains" of the outfit are Ayman al-Zawahiri, who was involved in the first attack on the WTC, and bin Laden himself.  Among others.  

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No, invading a country is not justified on basis of an organisation. Again, IRA which is supported by the US for some obscene and arcane reason, is a terrorist organisation whic his in government too. I don't see the difference.


It is (was) supported by people in the U.S., specifically by Irish-Ameircans in rich suburbs of Boston and New York, not by the U.S. government, which, incidentally, was instrumental in forging the peace.  The 9/11 parallel here is to the Saudis: Qaeda is supported by Wahabist Saudis in rich suburbs of Riyadh and Jeddah, not the Saudi government.  (At least, we hope not.)  

Edited by _ph, 25 March 2006 - 11:13 PM.

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#51 BklnScott

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 08:36 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Mar 24 2006, 07:43 PM, said:


View Post_ph, on Mar 24 2006, 06:16 PM, said:

If we use ours, what's to stop Pakistan from using theirs?  Or North Korea (which has missiles that could actually hit us, I believe)? Or Russia?  Or Israel?  Et al ad nauseum.  

And what's to stop those countries from doing so anyway?


Well, since they haven't, can we agree that something is stopping them?  

Quote

Do you honestly think that they share our values? Or our concerns?


Um, yes.  Don't you?  And, by the way, if we did nuke Afghanistan, we would be better than al Qaeda exactly how?  

Edited by _ph, 24 March 2006 - 08:46 PM.

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#52 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 11:16 PM

View Post_ph, on Mar 24 2006, 08:36 PM, said:

Well, since they haven't, can we agree that something is stopping them?  

Alright, I agree on that point. Since they haven't used them YET...something is stopping them.

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Um, yes.  Don't you?  And, by the way, if we did nuke Afghanistan, we would be better than al Qaeda exactly how?  

No, I don't think they share our values. The mere fact that they, and by they I mean the moderate muslims, want to kill a man for switching religions PROVES that they don't share our values.

So let me get this straight. Your argument against completely destroying them is because it makes us the same as them? Sorry, have to disagree. If we had nuked them before 9-11, or flown planes into their buildings, I could see your point. But we didn't. Our responding with nukes would've just been responding in kind.

Either way, since we didn't use nukes, this argument is somewhat pointless, wouldn't you agree?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#53 offworlder

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 02:32 AM

yes, what is with all this bloodthirsyness?

whatever happened to the old timehonoured sentence and resolution of ... 'banished!' ?

even in USA I don't see it, it's always prison this and prison that ... but especially in cases like this Afgan thing ........... what's wrong with 'banished for life!' ?
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#54 Chakoteya

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 03:04 AM

Banished for life doesn't have the same impact in these days of air travel as it did when you could only get anywhere on foot or horse/camel. With modern communications it doesn't cut you off from family and friends. You don't disappear completely as far as the people who want you gone are concerned.


(As for nuking anyone - there is such a thing as fallout, and have the americans learnt nothing from the ongoing studies in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Really, you cannot be serious)
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#55 Rhea

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 12:58 PM

^I can't find the link right now, but there's increasing pressure to release him while one Ayatollah commented that his conversion may have been a conspiracy by Western powers or Jews!!!  :eek:

Do they honestly think anyone would bother to convert one terminally stupid Afghan??  :eek4:
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#56 BklnScott

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 01:32 PM

I believe it is this man's stated intention to leave Afghanistan.  With his children.  And that's the real reason why his family--who has been caring for them while he was abroad--called the cops.  

This is Elian Gonzalez in the 4th Century.  (And I'm sure a lot of those Dade County Cuban Americans wouldn't have hesitated had they been given the chance to behead Elian's dad.)  

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#57 sierraleone

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Posted 26 March 2006 - 09:12 AM

The case has been dropped/dismissed - lack of evidence.

He had a Bible, and while you could argue he was reading it for education/literary reasons, he also admitted to it, did he not?

Basically, this is the best way the government could think of to sweep this under the rug to appease the conservative Muslims and the international community.

I just hope we don't hear about any people killing him later.... maybe they could use the insanity plea  :dontgetit:

http://www.cbc.ca/st...ghan060326.html
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#58 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 26 March 2006 - 02:02 PM

View Postsierraleone, on Mar 26 2006, 09:12 AM, said:

The case has been dropped/dismissed - lack of evidence.

He had a Bible, and while you could argue he was reading it for education/literary reasons, he also admitted to it, did he not?

Basically, this is the best way the government could think of to sweep this under the rug to appease the conservative Muslims and the international community.

I don't think this is going to work at all. The conservative Muslims are going to be pissed because he wasn't killed. There could very well be an overthrown President in Afghanistan soon. Which means we'll have to put somebody else in power, again...til something like this happens again.

Face it, Islamic law just does NOT work with humane decency. If it calls for the beheading of someone who converts from Islam to another religion, then IMO it's on the same religious level as satanism.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#59 Shalamar

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Posted 26 March 2006 - 02:45 PM

LoTS many main stream satanists would be very upset at that characterization . They consider themselves ( and gernerally are ) rather tolerant.

I'm not saying that there are not nut case satanists out there- every religion has them -  but mostly satanists just want to be left alone.

For those interested  might I suggest this link Satanism 101
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Respect for One's Self / Respect for Others / Responsibility for One's Words & Actions.

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#60 Spectacles

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 05:18 PM

Update: the Christian man has been given asylum in Italy.

http://news.yahoo.co...DltBHNlYwM3MTY-
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