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Immigration Federal Bill 2006 Protests California

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#161 waterpanther

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 07:48 PM

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WP - I asked every one to back off and calm down.

You have obviously not chosen to.

No, Shal.  And I'm not going to back off on this one.  You've got a couple posters making blatantly racist and patronizing remarks that would do a Grand Klaxon (or whatever the hell they're called) credit, and you're asking the offended parties to back off and calm down.  I think you've got your priorities backwards.
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#162 G1223

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 07:53 PM

Well WP I never thought of you as a racist but if you want to pass labels out make sure you get around to yourself.
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#163 Eskaminzim

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 07:56 PM

Scherzo:

It seemed to me, despite the question mark, that you weren't asking me what my point meant, but rather telling me what it meant.  It's a hot button for me, and so your pointed post probably hit more of a nerve in me than you intended it to do, but there you have it.

Themis' remark, however, didn't hit a hot button, because I was just trying to point out in my own way that history tends to repeat itself.  Back then, of course, there weren't enough of us to keep out the people flooding into our lands.  Now, we are the majority, but if illegal immigration continues at what appears to be exponential rates, that won't long last, I don't think.

When your population gets to be of such numbers that politicians soft soap things in order not to offend your voting bloc, even if what they're soft soaping is something completely illegal, well...let's just say that I see a red flag waving.

I remember hearing somewhere that back when Reagan issued the amnesty program, there were something like three or four million illegal aliens.  Now, some twenty years later, that number has quadrupled.  Will we really be able to hold fifty million illegal immigrants in another twenty years, or can we do something NOW to keep it from going that high?

The ONLY way I can see that working is to stop the employers from hiring, but that's never going to happen.  So I'm at a loss.

#164 Shalamar

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 07:58 PM

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Tell me, Shal, exactly WHERE does that remark talk about how people are trying to fix things TODAY?

The first sentence doesn't - and I never claimed it did.

But that second part of his post WAS there from the first, and for you to ignore it and claim that only the first sentence matters is as wrong as the way he said it.

and yes I am damned grateful that that ignorant genocidal bigoted general didn't get to do as he wanted - other wise I wouldn't have the pleasure of knowing you, or Wp, or the many native americans I do know.

Our world would be infinitely poorer without you - so how about let ME be thankful. Not asking you to one whit, not at all.

I'm not yelling at any one save that people are getting very personal and rude in this thread and there is no call for it.
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#165 Shalamar

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 08:04 PM

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No, Shal. And I'm not going to back off on this one. You've got a couple posters making blatantly racist and patronizing remarks that would do a Grand Klaxon (or whatever the hell they're called) credit, and you're asking the offended parties to back off and calm down. I think you've got your priorities backwards.

I asked you, Eska, Spidey, G and every one to calm down.  I did not aim it at you or Eska specifically. Read my post.
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#166 Eskaminzim

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 08:10 PM

Shal:

Re gratefulness, I can understand what you're saying and really, I do appreciate it, but to me, it's no different than me telling my brother's father in law that he should be greatful to Mengele for telling him to go into the line on the right instead of the left because at least he didn't go up in smoke like the rest of his family.

We're coming at this from two completely different points of view, I know.  But to be told by someone who has no clue that I should be grateful to someone like that just gets my goat, and it will never stop getting my goat, no matter how it's slanted, you know?

#167 Themis

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 08:13 PM

Eska, I think you missed my statement in post #57

"On the whole illegal immigration problem: Just remember that the original inhabitants of the US had unlimited, unmonitored immigration and look where that got them! They're living on reservations now."


Lesson from the past indeed.  The natives should've demanded visas.  Too bad nobody was thinking that way then.  In the end there were more Europeans than natives... The way it's going, there will be more illegals than citizens... especially since those who are Hispanic tend to be Catholic and don't use birth control...

I think monitoring the employers may be the only way.  Ya know, I don't mind paying a little more for things for a better overall quality of life.  That would include having goods for Wal-Mart made in the US instead of China and costing a little more but having full employment and more Americans with health insurance from an employer. (Of course I'd rather health insurance be national, but that's a whole other thread...)  Overall, we'd be a lot better off than sending manufacturing overseas so we could buy it dirt cheap from workers who get paid dirt cheap wages, or having illegals here working for dirt cheap wages instead of legals working for more and getting insurance and all the benefits.

And G, it may be nice manners to thank anybody for help, but in a sense that help is owed if it's from the group that did the damage in the first place.  Most people would be more inclined to say "'bout time" than to fall over themselves thanking someone.  Not that it wouldn't be nice and all.  You don't generally thank people for doing their job unless they went above and beyond - but a smile is always nice.

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Edited by Themis, 01 April 2006 - 08:16 PM.

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#168 tennyson

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 08:50 PM

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Lesson from the past indeed. The natives should've demanded visas.
Other than the fact that niether side had a concept that could be directly patterned onto the modern idea of the visa. Even the modern ideas of border control and regular border patrol were rather foriegn to Europe at the time and wouldn't really come into the fore until the development of absolutist states and state nationalism, a process that wouldn't really get going in Europe until the 17th century. Then the buracracies needed to support and enforce state control of the population wouldn't be in place until the late 18th century and only then in a very few countries.
People flow in the Americas didn't have any such constraints except in a few very specific cases and they didn't include markers allowing free passage.
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#169 Captain Jack

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 09:52 PM

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I'm sorry, as an American citizen who has love for his country, and whose family has fought for this country through WWII, vietnan, and the Cuban Missile Crisis, I can't help but be a little p*ssed at seeing ILLEGAL, Amerca hating users doing this.  Me saying this isn't being racist.  No way in hades.  They have no right to do that.  And America has every right to protect its citizens, its borders, and the laws.  Trying doing this in China, they'll be brought before a firing squad.  America doesn't deserve this at all.

Edited by Spidey, 01 April 2006 - 09:56 PM.

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#170 Shalamar

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 09:59 PM

I agree with you Spidey, this is just utterly disrespectful of the courty they are in - either legally or illegally.

and I really, really hate what illegal immigrants are doing to our country. I comepletely agree that they are abuseing the systems we put in place for our citizens and those who had the courgae and the respect to come in as legal immigrants.
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#171 Rhea

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 10:16 PM

View PostSpidey, on Mar 31 2006, 06:47 PM, said:

Many, including myself have lost job opportunities because there weren't enough minorities to fill their quota, or there were illegals that can be paid less.  That is a FACT.  It's called reverse descrimination, and it's out there in the REAL world, pal.  It isn't easy being white in California.  Obviously, you wouldn't know that.


We must live in different parts of California.  :angel:

I've never seen nor experienced reverse discrimination, and although I occasionally hear people scream about it, I've never had any of the screamers actually provide proof that they've experienced it either.

The closest I can come is when I went back to college in the early 80's, and wanted financial help, only to find that all the money had already gone to women re-entering the work force or foreigners (mostly Ethiopian, for some reason  :eek4: ). I did what I've always done, and went at the problem from another direction.
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#172 Captain Jack

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 10:17 PM

Thank you Shal.  I appreciate that, really.



This is THEIR continent???  So America AND Canada is theirs too?  I think they need to get their facts straight.
Now, if they truly would at least have any liking of USA, where is the US Flag?  That doesn't look like the US flag to me.  This clearly shows where their loyalties lie.  And that's fine.  But America does not answer to Mexico's demands.  America isn't owned by Mexico.  America is a sovereign nation, with its own laws.  I fail to find the right words to say as to what all this is to me, as an American.

99.999% of the people of the United States are either decendants of, or a immagrants.  The Native Americans are the only people who are Native in the truest sense.  However, Most of those-a vast majority did it because they WANTED to become Americans.  They had something in their hearts that drove them acrosss the Pacific and Atlantic and be model citizens and contribute positively to American society.  I don't see this here.  I just don't.  Because it isn't there.  And I'm supposed to feel sorry for them???  I'm sopposed to look the other way?  Nope, sorry.  This has to be dealt with.

Also, this isn't about just the Mexicans.  It's about ALL illegals regardless of whatever country they came from.  In a worst case scenario, a terrorist can easily come in and have a field day with the way things are unenforced.  My goodness.

It was even in the news how the US government experimented to see how easy it was to bring in nuclear material into the US.  It turned out to be a piece of cake.  This goes far greater than just Mexico.

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#173 Captain Jack

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 10:23 PM

View PostRhea, on Apr 1 2006, 07:16 PM, said:

View PostSpidey, on Mar 31 2006, 06:47 PM, said:

Many, including myself have lost job opportunities because there weren't enough minorities to fill their quota, or there were illegals that can be paid less.  That is a FACT.  It's called reverse descrimination, and it's out there in the REAL world, pal.  It isn't easy being white in California.  Obviously, you wouldn't know that.


We must live in different parts of California.  :angel:

That may be, but this isn't some isolated incident.  This happens in many places across the US.  Some more than others though.  The degrees vary, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

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I've never seen nor experienced reverse discrimination, and although I occasionally hear people scream about it, I've never had any of the screamers actually provide proof that they've experienced it either.

The closest I can come is when I went back to college in the early 80's, and wanted financial help, only to find that all the money had already gone to women re-entering the work force or foreigners (mostly Ethiopian, for some reason  :eek4: ). I did what I've always done, and went at the problem from another direction.

I've seen it and experienced it.  Discrimination of any kind should not be tolerated.  It's also something that is very hard to prove in a court, I suppose.  I never persued it, anyways.

Heh, I couldn't qualify because I made too much.  Too much by what standards?  I could barely afford rent.  I didn't cry about it.  I worked two jobs (two looooooooow paying jobs at that) and had by some miracle, made it through school.  :D
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#174 Tricia

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 11:16 PM

Say what you will about the flag issue and the pics posted above....

But do you truly believe that this is a wanton display of repulsion for the American flag or just people being ignorant about flag protocol?

They do not teach respect for the flag in schools anymore or the rules/etiquette involving the flag.  

Any incidents like you show in above pics ....I only know of this one you showed. Otherwise the rest of the incidents involved only people carrying nothing but the Mexican flag or even displaying the two together (but with both flags upright)  

And before you say they should not be displayed together....they have been done that way at many festivals as far back as 1910.  

Just because of the stupidity/foolishness of a few young people...who have not been taught any better....does not mean that you should put the blame for a few incidents by a few individuals on all of the group.

Yes, immigration reform is needed.....

And I'm not going to lay the blame at any one political party's door as neither has doen much to help with the situation....but the one that is in charge during this time when we have to worry about terrorists sneaking into our country to do harm is the one who merged the INS in under Homeland Security's control...just as was done with FEMA.  And we all know how well that turned out.    :sarcasm:

This is not going to be an easy problem to fix.  Saying ship'em all back to where they came from is just not going to do it.  

The news tonight said that most of the people who marched in these protests did not necessarily know what they were marching against.  That's why educators are now trying to set up forums, assign papers, etc to get everyone to sit down and fully read the proposed bills.  

Is it wrong to protest when you don't know or understand what all the yelling is about?  Probably...but it's not the first time that people protested against something without doing the research.

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#175 FnlPrblm

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 02:05 AM

It seems to me, all of this really boils down to something that our era of humanity lacks.  Honor and respect.  Respect for ourselves as well as others, no matter who they are.  Honor to most people has simply been watered down to a word...a word with no meaning other than one with some sort of historical attachment to it.

I see it with the illegals and I see it here in this very thread.  As much as I do respect all of you pleading your cases from the bottom of your hearts.  I still am sadened by the lack of respect for the others (at times).

  If the illegal aliens had put forth a plea of helplessness.  A plea that they wished to become Americans, but are constantly denied.  A plea for respect of their fellow man.  A passion that we are all one species, a species who are caring, loving and respectful of one another.  I believe their voices would be heard thru the crowds as distinctly as you read these words.

  Sadly, I do not hear those voices in this instance.  I see flags, but they face each other, as if they are in a duel.  The visual affect of masses marching thru the streets does not give the impression of tyranny or helplessness, but rather a mob and/or army ready for a fight.  Instead of gathering outside a government building which does not represent them, why do they not gather outside a customs office or INS buildings?

Their honor and our trust would lie in giving them a chance at a better life.  One that would include giving and taking on both sides.  See, melting and assimilating are not the same thing.  When a culture melts into another, both cultures learn from each other.  Some things will be bad, some good.  But together they can stand as one, yet still individually.  Assimilating is an all out wiping of the other's identity.  No trace, no pride, no respect.  That is very bad.  Both sides lose.
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#176 Captain Jack

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 03:33 AM

I mostly agree with you up until the part where you claim they are denied citizenship.  Such is NOT the case.  They REFUSE to become citizens.  I've dishonored no one, and have bent over backwards trying to be respectful as much as I can, because I do respect the LEGAL immigrants, and honor their efforts in doing so.

The illegals aren't pleading anything.  They are by no means poor, helpless victims.  They have a choice, and no one is denying them of that.  No one ever has.  It isn't hard becoming a citizen, or even getting a dual citizenship (although, that may be trickier).  They disrespect the laws of the United States, and the people, and governments shouldn't have to put up with that.

Yes, there has been all kinds of faults made in the past, but this has nothing to do with that.  This has to do with who a person's loyalties belong to.  This has to do with a people that need to make a choice because no one should take advantage of a system that has cracks big enough for them to get through.

Those illegals do not represent ALL Mexicans.  There are many who are proud to be legal US citizens, and they don't fall into this group of wanting their cake and eating it too.  America does not belong to Mexico.  And America does not bow down to Mexican people's demands in this issue.

These people have not been persecuted or mistreated in any way.  What's lacking of Honor are the illegals who spit in the face of what America is.  They demand that everyone cater to what they want, and don't give a damn about what our laws oare.  They've shown their stripes by waving the Mexican flag over the US's.  They have no desire to be US citizens.  So why should anyone be obligated to "honor" their distasteful and dishonorable behavior?  Didn't think so.

There are so many programs out there for all immigrants.  Millions, if not billions of state and federal funds are poured into them to help immigrants become part of the U.S.  All that comes from citizens's taxes.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  Fine.  Let them dehydrate then.
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#177 GiGi

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 03:48 AM

Well said FnlPrblm!!!!
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#178 Tricia

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 10:11 AM

What I am seeing here is an insistence on calling these protestors illegal immigrants or being confrontational.

The majority of what I have seen on TV...and specifically in the Houston area is teenage kids...of whom the majority were, I am sure, born in this country and thus are American citizens. And perhaps their families have been here, legal or not, for a couple of generations

I have not seen the confrontational mob and/or army ready for a fight.

I am seeing mostly kids who are under the guise of a protest, getting out of class and whooping it up as they walk down the road to City Hall...where they splash in the reflection pond and goof around with their friends before getting on school buses and going back to class where they will later be given detention or some other punishment.

Only a few in this area where arrested and that was for abusive language or simply curfew violations.

Yes, there have been some adults who have protested....but except for a few people I am not seeing physical clashes or any rioting or destruction.  And those type of people are in every group,  every race and nationality, ready to pounce on any opportunity to show their behind.

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#179 waterpanther

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 10:39 AM

^But, trikay, those are mere facts.  They don't count.  They're not nearly as much fun as a fine, high-dudgeon fit of xenophobia. :devil:
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#180 G1223

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 12:39 PM

Why should they fight. Their parents and or grandparents are getting free things while the rest of us are paying for the free ride.

They want the laws changed so that the 'guest' workers (I guess a step towards giving them citizenship) are not forced out when they are found to be here illegally. Kind of like being unable to make a tresspasser leave your house. Then finding out that they get to live there while you pay for their upkeep as well as your own.

Xenophobia is irrational fear of strangers or strange ways. This is not fear it is Anger. Anger at having to bend so far over to take care of these people one finds oneself doing backflips.
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