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Immigration Federal Bill 2006 Protests California

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#21 Eskaminzim

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 11:57 AM

Not all that rare, Gode, as far as I know.  I was once thinking of emigrating to En Zed, until I found out that you needed a sponsor, had to have specific job OFFERS before you could apply, and that those offers had to be in professional and licensed jobs (i.e advanced degrees), unless you had over a million some odd dollars in the bank, OR your sponsors were rich.  And I AM an advanced degreed professional!  I was like "beautiful country, lovely people, waaaaaaay too many hoops to jump through, think I"ll just stay here instead."

So, it's not just the US.

#22 enTranced

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 11:58 AM

View PostLin731, on Mar 29 2006, 04:43 PM, said:

Yeah God forbid we put a stopper in our swiss cheese borders and runaway illegal immigration problem in this country. Maybe we ought to change the inscription to read "Give us your tired, your poor, your dirt cheap laborers".  How UnAmerican to expect people to come here legally (as our ancestors did) instead of slinking across the border in the dead of night, having kids so they can't be deported, draining the American taxpayer for welfare, education, medical care, law enforcement, border enforcement while becoming the largest source of income for Mexico. If anything, we should be ashamed of ourselves for leaving our borders poorly protected thus allowing some 12 million illegals that we know nothing about to roam free in the US. Heck maybe we ought to Annex Mexico, in another 30 years at the rate of illegal immigration, most of them will be HERE already anyway.

Aside from what Gode mentions, this nation was BUILT by immigrants. And I think we should be working on helping these people become legal citizens of this nation.

Do I think we should halt illegals? YES. Hell YES. How about we maybe fund a few border guards for example? That was not my issue with Spidey's post.

But screaming about putting a freaking great wall of racism around the country? Do I want to live in a new Fortress America? Where we acuse each other of being a dirty immigrant? Sorry No. That America does not interest me at ALL. I can't wait till we start gathering them up to tidy little camps. Hey it will be for their protection and it worked so well during WW2!

I am the son of hard working Scottish immigrants and I am freaking proud that my family moved here and built a LIFE.

Spidey's post spit all over my family's past (and in doing so many others past as well).

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Edited by enTranced, 29 March 2006 - 12:02 PM.

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#23 Lin731

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 12:03 PM

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So while I agree people should come legally, you'll get absolutely no sympathy for the goverment that makes it so bloody hard to emigrate.

I agree with you on this point. You shouldn't have to have a PHD to get into this country. I understand the thinking aka...they want high skilled immigrants but not every job in this country is brain surgery on engineering. It's totally hypocritical from our government to blame the problem entirely on illegals while winking at those who employ them.

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Aside from what Gode mentions, this nation was BUILT by immigrants. And I think we should be working on helping these people become legal citizens of this nation.

Of course it was but did they sneak into America or did they migrate legally? For me that is the biggestest difference. This country cannot sustain these levels of illegal migration across our borders. It's costing taxpayers billions and it's depressing wages for America workers.

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But screaming about putting a freaking great wall of racism around the country? Do I want to live in a new Fortress America? Where we acuse each other of being a dirty immigrant? Sorry No. That America does not interest me at ALL. I can't wait till we start gathering them up to tidy little camps. Hey it will be for their protection and it worked so well during WW2!

That's the difference between us, I don't consider it racist to try and stop the flow of illegals and border enforcement isn't getting the job done nor will it ever be able to. The border is too vast and the price of hiring enough border patrol to adequately do the job (minus a wall) is astronomical. I'd prefer we do it minus a wall but I don't think it's economically feasible. I think you're being overly dramatic with the comparisons to WW2, with camps and "dirty immigrant" accusations flying. IMO, those are total apples and oranges comparisons that have zero to do with the here and now. First off those poor people rounded up were here legally, many we actually first generation Americans. They didn't come across the borders as illegal, undocumented labor.

Edited by Lin731, 29 March 2006 - 12:20 PM.

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#24 Godeskian

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 12:20 PM

I would have been a benefit to American society Lin, I would have brought my business, my knowledge and my experience along, not to mention what I think is a pretty darn solid work ethic.

But because I don't have the shiny papers that prove my skills, I have no chance whatsoever. I'd actually be better of coming over on a 1 year visa and getting a girl pregnant than to try and enter legally by normal means.

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#25 Godeskian

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 12:22 PM

View PostLin731, on Mar 29 2006, 06:03 PM, said:

Of course it was but did they sneak into America or did they migrate legally?

It wasn't always this difficult to emigrate. fifty years ago, with my relative level of experience I could have got in. Now? well, not so much.

and ET (((((( ET ))))))

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#26 Delvo

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 12:30 PM

I knew a Dutch family that came to the USA legally without any special qualifications or wealth. They had lots of red tape to deal with, but it went smoothly and they weren't refused.

#27 Lin731

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 12:33 PM

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I would have been a benefit to American society Lin, I would have brought my business, my knowledge and my experience along, not to mention what I think is a pretty darn solid work ethic.

I beleive you Gode, I honestly do but as was pointed out by Eskaminzim, the situation you encountered is not unique. When that idiot got reelected my husband and I actually looked at Migrating to Canada but you run through the same gauntlet there and pretty much everywhere else in the world nowadays.

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But because I don't have the shiny papers that prove my skills, I have no chance whatsoever. I'd actually be better of coming over on a 1 year visa and getting a girl pregnant than to try and enter legally by normal means.

It's not all that different for Americans Gode. You don't have that shiny peice of paper proving you know what you know, employers aren't gonna hire you. Makes no difference if you're from here or not. It's a problem many Americans encounter every day.  I know how to do alot of things but no one is gonna hire me on what I say I know how to do, they want that shiny, expensive peice of paper to prove it.

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It wasn't always this difficult to emigrate. fifty years ago, with my relative level of experience I could have got in. Now? well, not so much.

I think you'll find that problem holds true in most of the developed world now.
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#28 Godeskian

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 12:40 PM

View PostLin731, on Mar 29 2006, 06:33 PM, said:

I beleive you Gode, I honestly do but as was pointed out by Eskaminzim, the situation you encountered is not unique.

I know, I guess I just needed to rant a bit. Sorry about that.  :blush:

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#29 Godeskian

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 12:41 PM

View PostDelvo, on Mar 29 2006, 06:30 PM, said:

I knew a Dutch family that came to the USA legally without any special qualifications or wealth. They had lots of red tape to deal with, but it went smoothly and they weren't refused.

Did you know that on the US immigration points system you get a bucketload of extra points if you're married and have kids?

But speaking as a fellow Dutchman, i'd love to know they did it, or I would have loved to have known three or four years ago.

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#30 Cheile

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 12:47 PM

there was a blurb on last night's news that today any student who pulls this sh*t will be slapped with truancy.  i dunno why they waited this long!

it amazes me that these brats think they have a right to behave like this.  especially the ones to whom this issue doesn't even apply (the "white" kids).  then again these brats have no concept yet of their taxes being wasted on illegals who come over here pregnant so they can have their stupid babies here and chew up welfare dollars.

and sorry enTranced, but building that wall is going to be the ONLY way to keep these people where they belong.  border guards and fences aren't working.

and the immigrants of 2-300 years ago are far different from these.  they were all processed through Ellis Island.  most did their best to find work--hell most were coming here TO work!  they did not mooch off the born citizens.  and oh yes--my sticking point--THEY ALL LEARNED ENGLISH!

make them get citizenship or ship these people back where they belong.  i'm tired of seeing my taxpayer money go for food and cash aid to illegals (and their dozens of illegitimate kids) when i see LEGAL citizens who can't get aid for themselves or their kids because of these people.

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#31 Tricia

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 01:02 PM

View PostCheile, on Mar 29 2006, 05:47 PM, said:

there was a blurb on last night's news that today any student who pulls this sh*t will be slapped with truancy.  i dunno why they waited this long!

it amazes me that these brats think they have a right to behave like this.  especially the ones to whom this issue doesn't even apply (the "white" kids).  then again these brats have no concept yet of their taxes being wasted on illegals who come over here pregnant so they can have their stupid babies here and chew up welfare dollars.

Not getting back into the other part of the argument as it is very clear that this is one of those issues that can be very devisive and everyone's opinions are based on personal experience/perception


But heard on the news locally (Houston area) that one of the school districts that had students protesting this was handing down punishments of in-school detention or Saturday school and/or writing a paper on the immigration issue---not just personal opinion papers but researched papers on the proposed laws.

To me this is a better solution.  Making the kids read the proposed laws and writing about it.  Education rather than just rumor or supposed 'facts'

Another school had students leaving campus in Houston and they headed the kids off at the pass and made them go sit in the football stadium while they called the parents.

They told the kids to protest and yell and wave their flags there.  Not a peep out of the kids after that.  Lots of mamas yelling at kid tho.


BTW Houston area Hispanic leaders say that they are happy to see the students taking an interest in current affairs but that there is a time and a place for this and the teens need to be in school  learning, not walking to City Hall

Edited by trikay, 29 March 2006 - 01:06 PM.

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#32 enTranced

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 01:17 PM

View PostLin731, on Mar 29 2006, 05:03 PM, said:

That's the difference between us, I don't consider it racist to try and stop the flow of illegals and border enforcement isn't getting the job done nor will it ever be able to. The border is too vast and the price of hiring enough border patrol to adequately do the job (minus a wall) is astronomical. I'd prefer we do it minus a wall but I don't think it's economically feasible. I think you're being overly dramatic with the comparisons to WW2, with camps and "dirty immigrant" accusations flying. IMO, those are total apples and oranges comparisons that have zero to do with the here and now. First off those poor people rounded up were here legally, many we actually first generation Americans. They didn't come across the borders as illegal, undocumented labor.

I don't think it's that far from "Lets retreat behind a wall" to "Purge the unclean!".

Do we have a welcoming society or don't we? That is the bottom line.

And again, i'm not saying we shouldn't have border protrols, every nation guards it's border, even if we aren't doing such a hot job of that right now. And I'm not the only one being dramatic with howls of "Those damn foreigners are stealing my money AND my job!"

The Xenophobia in this thread is a little hard to take for this second generation Scottish American.

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Edited by enTranced, 29 March 2006 - 01:18 PM.

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#33 enTranced

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 01:20 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Mar 29 2006, 05:22 PM, said:

and ET (((((( ET ))))))

Thanks Gode,

I'm going to sit back a little in this thread I think.

Along with the kilts I also got the temper.  :blush:

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#34 Lin731

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 02:38 PM

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I know, I guess I just needed to rant a bit. Sorry about that.

No problem Gode, I often feel that way myself these days. So feel free to rant a bit whenever ya need to! :)

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Do we have a welcoming society or don't we? That is the bottom line.

Here's my analogy on being welcoming. If I invite you into my house, fine but do I throw open my front door and roll out the welcome mat to uninvited strangers? There's a difference IMH opinion between being a welcoming country and being a doormat for our Mexican neighbors to stomp on while disregarding our laws.

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The Xenophobia in this thread is a little hard to take for this second generation Scottish American.

I'm scottish as well, my family's been here at least as early as 1820 (that's as far back as we've been able to trace so far) and like you, I got the temper along with the kilt. :D  I'm not sure why you view this as Xenophobia though because I don't see that as the reason. What I see is Americans saying "Enough is enough already". Not because they are Mexicans but because they are flooding our borders illegally and burdening our entire system : welfare, healthcare, education, law enforcement all down the line. They are also depressing wages in higher paying fields now too and THAT is where Americans seem to be drawing the line. They've always had a problem with the idea of people coming here illegally, drawing on our resources and tax dollars but when it gets to the point of being a huge burden on the taxpayers AND it's depressing wages, it's gone too far. We aren't talking a million illegals or 2 million illegals. We're talking 12 million and rising as much as 3 million a year. It's too much, no country can or should be expected to support such a huge influx. Even in my neck of the woods, we've seen whole towns transformed, culturally overrun by people that legally have no business being here in the first place. Americans get a bit twitchy when they see their hometowns completlely overtaken in a short span of time by people that A. Aren't here legally. B. Are collecting benefits off their tax dollars. C. Are working under the table and paying no taxes. D. Have rendered they're hometowns unrecognisable. Such sudden and jarring changes in culture are rarely embraced wholeheartedly but even less so given the circumstances surrounding it. This country was a melting pot with immigration that allowed large groups in but not so large that they drowned out the culture they were entering. THAT is a large part of the issue right now, having so many illegals entering that they aren't the ones assimilating to OUR culture, we're being forced to assimilate theirs. If I wanted to live in or visit Mexico, I'd go there, I certainly didn't expect to see it 10 miles away out here in the styx and happening in 5 short years. This town went from a mix od whites, blacks and hispanics to looking like Little Mexico in 5 years time and people resent it. When you can't get a job in their school district unless you're Spanish speaking now, that's telling. Whatever happened to coming here and learning the language? Now they come here and we're expected to shell out alot of extra money to accomodate their lack of learning our language.

Edited by Lin731, 29 March 2006 - 02:39 PM.

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#35 MuseZack

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 02:43 PM

The Mexican flags at the demonstrations bother me, I admit.  But is everyone who's outraged by them equally outraged by the prominent display of the Confederate flag by millions of Americans-- the flag of treason and armed insurrection against the United States?
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#36 Lin731

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 02:52 PM

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The Mexican flags at the demonstrations bother me, I admit. But is everyone who's outraged by them equally outraged by the prominent display of the Confederate flag by millions of Americans-- the flag of treason and armed insurrection against the United States?

In a word...YES. I have no use for the confederate flag either. To me it represents the embrace of treating humanbeings like cattle.
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#37 enTranced

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 02:57 PM

View PostLin731, on Mar 29 2006, 07:38 PM, said:

I'm scottish as well, my family's been here at least as early as 1820 (that's as far back as we've been able to trace so far) and like you, I got the temper along with the kilt. :D  I'm not sure why you view this as Xenophobia though because I don't see that as the reason. What I see is Americans saying "Enough is enough already". Not because they are Mexicans but because they are flooding our borders illegally and burdening our entire system : welfare, healthcare, education, law enforcement all down the line. They are also depressing wages in higher paying fields now too and THAT is where Americans seem to be drawing the line. They've always had a problem with the idea of people coming here illegally, drawing on our resources and tax dollars but when it gets to the point of being a huge burden on the taxpayers AND it's depressing wages, it's gone too far. We aren't talking a million illegals or 2 million illegals. We're talking 12 million and rising as much as 3 million a year. It's too much, no country can or should be expected to support such a huge influx. Even in my neck of the woods, we've seen whole towns transformed, culturally overrun by people that legally have no business being here in the first place. Americans get a bit twitchy when they see their hometowns completlely overtaken in a short span of time by people that A. Aren't here legally. B. Are collecting benefits off their tax dollars. C. Are working under the table and paying no taxes. D. Have rendered they're hometowns unrecognisable. Such sudden and jarring changes in culture are rarely embraced wholeheartedly but even less so given the circumstances surrounding it. This country was a melting pot with immigration that allowed large groups in but not so large that they drowned out the culture they were entering. THAT is a large part of the issue right now, having so many illegals entering that they aren't the ones assimilating to OUR culture, we're being forced to assimilate theirs. If I wanted to live in or visit Mexico, I'd go there, I certainly didn't expect to see it 10 miles away out here in the styx and happening in 5 short years. This town went from a mix od whites, blacks and hispanics to looking like Little Mexico in 5 years time and people resent it. When you can't get a job in their school district unless you're Spanish speaking now, that's telling. Whatever happened to coming here and learning the language? Now they come here and we're expected to shell out alot of extra money to accomodate their lack of learning our language.

Ok Lin,

I think we are understanding each other now. I don't have a lot of love for those that are here against the laws of our country. My outburst in this thread (something I got with my red hair *sigh* ) was Spidey's "Lets build a wall!" post.

Any nation NEEDS to have immagration. Immagrants bring new ideas and new ways to get things done.

My Grandma used to have this cool banner that listed all the things the Scots have done for this country (and it was a big list) and it made me feel proud when i saw it. ALL legal imagrants have made similar contributions to our new home and we would lose ALL of that and more if we decided to slam the doors shut.

But I agree that it has to go BOTH ways.

enTranced

Edited by enTranced, 29 March 2006 - 03:44 PM.

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#38 enTranced

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 03:00 PM

View PostLin731, on Mar 29 2006, 07:52 PM, said:

Quote

The Mexican flags at the demonstrations bother me, I admit. But is everyone who's outraged by them equally outraged by the prominent display of the Confederate flag by millions of Americans-- the flag of treason and armed insurrection against the United States?

In a word...YES. I have no use for the confederate flag either. To me it represents the embrace of treating humanbeings like cattle.

What Lin Said™.

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#39 Robert Hewitt Wolfe

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 03:03 PM

A guest on Jon Steward last night made an interesting point:

The United States has the best track record in history of absorbing immigrants, legal and otherwise, including Reagan's massive amnesty program in the mid 80s.

The new ideas being thrown around, guest worker status and forced deportation, are the basic philosophy for dealing with immigrants in... errr... well... France.

And look how well that's working for them.

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#40 Godeskian

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 03:12 PM

View PostRobert Hewitt Wolfe, on Mar 29 2006, 09:03 PM, said:

The new ideas being thrown around, guest worker status and forced deportation, are the basic philosophy for dealing with immigrants in... errr... well... France.

Funny you should mention that Robert. I was just reading about HR4437, the new immigration law in Congress at the moment.

http://72.14.203.104...us&ct=clnk&cd=1

Can I just say that it scares the hell out of me, and has just stricken the US from my vacation plans for the foreseeable future

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