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beneath the Mexican flag

Immigration Federal Bill 2006 Protests California

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#201 waterpanther

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 07:17 PM

^Which pretty much points up the self-limitations of unregulated capitalism.  Unregulated capitalism gave  us Dickens' London and  the American Gilded Age--a small number of very wealthy families, a large lower class caught in intractable poverty, but a stable middle class in between.   Mexico has burgeoning capitalism, but it lacks that stable middle class in any great numbers; there's very little buffer zone between the very wealthy and the very poor, and no place for social reform to come from except from among those very poor.   So far the ruling PRI (Revolutionary Institutional Party--and there's a conundrum right there) has shown no inclination to address these issues in any meaningful way.  

Now, Mexico may be about to get a leftist President in Lopez Obrador.  He's not going to be good buds with Bush or anyone like him, and Pat Robertson will probably want to assassinate him, too.  If we don't have an American government that can work constructively with the Mexican government with the welfare of the Mexican working class in mind, then matters are likely to get much,  much worse than they are right now.  Working constructively may mean finding a way to absorb the current immigrant population.  It will almost certainly mean a renegotiation of NAFTA to give the Mexican worker an incentive to stay in Mexico--ie., American companies that move to Mexico are going to have to start paying better wages and decent bennies, even if the profit margin is pared. The long, long free lunch of the American corporation in Latin America is about to be over.
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#202 Captain Jack

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 07:38 PM

The shrinking of the "Middle Class" has already begun too.

I would very much like to see a much better relationship between Mexico and the US.  I don't think the US should have any business in telling other countries how to govern.  However, in this case, it would be benifitial to both nations if the US helped Mexico become a better capitalist nation, as well as improve jobs and services somehow.  Mexico is just so overrun with lawlessness, and everything is for sale there.  This spills over to the US with the drug runners and so forth.  Helping them will also benifit us.  Provided of course, they be willing to agree.

Edited because of a sentence that was missing some words.  My bad.

Edited by Spidey, 02 April 2006 - 07:39 PM.

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#203 Hibblette

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 09:01 PM

I'm not going to howl Eskaminzim it's what I've been saying.

And by the way the Middle Class disappeared about 1984.  Or at least that's the beginning of it's long slow death.
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#204 FnlPrblm

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 09:28 PM

View PostSpidey, on Apr 2 2006, 03:32 PM, said:

Oh, well, pardon me for having feelings for my country, and expressing tthem.  :rolleyes:  However, I will try to do better in being more tactful.

And, I absolutely agree with you about respect and honor.

It had nothing to do with the feelings for our country, merely the way you were speaking of them.  This long post which I'm semi-quoting you on is exactly the calm and cool I was wishing for. :)  Thanks.  Your attempts are all I asked for.

It was a good posting.  Same to you Esk. (with the post above Spidey's).  Well said.
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#205 Captain Jack

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 09:33 PM

Glad I could accomadate. :)
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#206 waterpanther

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 09:56 PM

One of the running complaints here is that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes and just "mooch off the system."  Guess again:

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Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security with Billions
    By Eduardo Porter
    The New York Times

    Tuesday 05 April 2005

    Stockton, Calif. - Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour.     . . . But Mr. Martínez . . .contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.

    Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.

    He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

    While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections.

    . . .    It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.

    Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions.

. . . .
  
    "Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.

. . . .
  
    Using data from the Census Bureau's current population survey, Steven Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies, an advocacy group in Washington that favors more limits on immigration, estimated that 3.8 million households headed by illegal immigrants generated $6.4 billion in Social Security taxes in 2002.

. . . .

       Yet to immigrants, the lack of retirement benefits is just part of the package of hardship they took on when they decided to make the trek north. Tying vines in a vineyard some 30 miles north of Stockton, Florencio Tapia, 20, from Guerrero, along Mexico's Pacific coast, has no idea what the money being withheld from his paycheck is for. "I haven't asked," Mr. Tapia said.

    For illegal immigrants, Social Security numbers are simply a tool needed to work on this side of the border. Retirement does not enter the picture.

    "There will be a moment when I won't be able to continue working," Mr. Martínez acknowledges. "But that's many years off."

    Mario Avalos, a naturalized Nicaraguan immigrant who prepares income tax returns for many workers in the area, including immigrants without legal papers, observes that many older workers return home to Mexico. "Among my clients," he said, "I can't recall anybody over 60 without papers."

Illegals pay taxes

The link above is to the story on the truthout site because you have to put up $$$ to read it from the NYT archives.

Edited by waterpanther, 02 April 2006 - 10:28 PM.

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#207 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 11:42 PM

Moderator’s Helmet On:
Official Warning:

This warning applies to the following member for the following post:

Waterpanther

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Have another length of barbed wire, G.

This post is a violation of the following relevant part of Section 1A of the EI Guidelines:

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You are free to disagree with your fellow posters and their opinions on the world but it is a violation when you attack them in this manner.  As stated in the Forum Charter for Orbis Terrarum, this is ultimately a discussion forum for politics, history, and current events. The environment should allow questions, answers, and discussions to flourish. Personal insults, attacks, or attempts to be dismissive toward each other lower the level of discussion in the entire forum.  If a fellow user's opinions annoy you, then we suggest that you take the higher road and not respond to them or you should directly address the topic at hand. If they are violation of the guidelines with their post then contact one of the OT Moderators and we will deal with it.  

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#208 Lin731

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 11:45 PM

WP so basically this article is saying that they not only crossed the border illegally but have also garnered false social security cards and ID's? As to the guy making $8.00 to $12.00 buck and hour but never getting social security, on the one hand I feel bad for him because he's paying into something he'll not recieve. On the other hand, he's making decent money (at least at 12 bucks an hour he is) and he WOULD be entitled to draw SS if he'd come here legally. So it's hard for me to feel sorry for him. He came here by choice, he bought fake documents by choice as well. The real shame is that the economy in his own country stinks so badly that he feels the need to break a bunch of laws and sneak into the US. I can feel badly for his situation but it doesn't change the illegal behaviors he's been involved in to garner work here nor the effect on our wages or the drain on our schools, police, social services and healthcare. I wonder what the feeling would be in Mexico if WE were immigrating their illegally to the tune of millions a year? I doubt they'd be feeling particularly generous about it either.

I have alot of respect for you, even though we disagree in alot of ways on this issue but I DO see your point, even if I don't agree with it entirely.

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Problem is, it's beginning to hurt the worker and the workee. If your need for profit is caught up in outsourcing jobs or selling them to the lowest bidder, you're soon going to price out your middle class. Without your middle class, there's going to be no one to buy your products, goods, and/or services. With no one to buy those things, where are your profits? Nowhere.

And we all lose.

I agree with you completely and have been saying as much for years now. If you suffocate the middle class in this country by exporting all the decent jobs to max the profits, who will be left to buy what you're selling? The people you're exploiting for cheap labor certainly can't afford to buy the products they're producing. Since you didn't drop the prices of what you were selling by more than the merest fraction (even though you're paying next-to-nothing wages, no medical, no workmans comp, no EPA regs), who will be left that is able to afford your products? Of course corporations in this day and age have a "Hurray for me, to hell with you attitude" and don't look past their next big bonus package.

Edited by Lin731, 03 April 2006 - 12:02 AM.

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#209 Themis

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 08:06 AM

What Lin said.

Maybe Social Security could shift some of that money over to social services and schools to even things up....any way to tell if those fake SS numbers belong to real people or are totally fake??  


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Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.

So even the Social Security administration doesn't dare use the term illegal????????

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#210 Eskaminzim

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 08:21 AM

I was listening to a report on CNN the other day.  They said that nearly 90% of all identity theft involving social security numbers was due to illegal aliens stealing the number to use on job forms.  And of course, no one checks.  And, did you know that if they DO check, and find out that someone was using YOUR SS# to do this, THEY CAN'T TELL YOU???

Nope, they can't.  Lovely, ain't it.

Others, they said, were blatantly false, such as 999-99-9999  or 123-45-6789 and employers still used them as hiring documents.  wink/wink.

#211 Tricia

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 10:17 AM

^^^

You do mean that these numbers are stolen to be  used by illegal immigrants....not necessarily by said illegal immigrants directly.?

(Just asking for clarification here)

Making false ids and documents for undocumented workers is big business and law enforcement has over the past several years...at least in the Houston area...investigated and arrested many people for doing just this. But there's always someone else who comes in and takes up the void.

What the immigrants are guilty of in this case is purchasing and possessing false documents.  Of course, without asking where this info etc came from. Still a crime of course.  Just because you don't know that you have stolen property..albeit a SS number...does not make you any less guilty.  Especially if using false papers.

Yes, this is definitely illegal.  

And with the  government finding out that someone is using your SS number or info....I've never understood why they don't pursue this further.  But nothing is done or acknowledged until YOU find out yourself...thru credit reports or other ways.  Not sure how you would find out if they are only using it to have a job and thus paying taxes on your number.

But somewhere, somehow in some computer somewhere...something should match up--or not match up ---on what you claim on your tax returns as far as income and what is actually paid in.  Okay I have never really thought about how that works but I'm gonna do some research now.

As to shifting some of that SS money over to other things...well, according to Dubya and his people SS is running out of money so....

Edited by trikay, 03 April 2006 - 10:50 AM.

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#212 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 01:36 PM

*edited* Sorry....wrong thread

Edited by LORD of the SWORD, 03 April 2006 - 01:37 PM.

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#213 Ogami

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 03:26 PM

Wooo! What great traffic on this topic. Way to go, Scherzo!

I have been inundated with news footage of demonstrators from California and Washington DC.

What strikes me is odd is seeing so many protesters waving Mexican flags at these rallies. What on earth is the message that action is trying to convey? Please tell me, someone.

What if I went to Bolivia's capital, and waved the American flag, demanding my "rights"? Would I disappear into the custody of the Bolivian police, or be mobbed to death beforehand?

I think Bush's plan to allow registered Mexican workers to migrate is a great idea, and a great improvement over the present system, which is so skewed that we have people celebrating how much they can break the law. (Apparently the Senate isn't doing much of anything on the news today, what a shocker.)

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#214 Lin731

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 12:27 PM

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think Bush's plan to allow registered Mexican workers to migrate is a great idea, and a great improvement over the present system, which is so skewed that we have people celebrating how much they can break the law. (Apparently the Senate isn't doing much of anything on the news today, what a shocker.)

Yeah it's a great idea to reward illegal behavior with the prospect of citizenship down the road. Guest worker programs are a job inthemselves. Many of the illegals here right now once had legal work Visa's and just didn't go home when they expired. What a joke. If we don't control the border, we might as well just roll out the "Welcome Mat" to all of them. No Guest worker program or reform bill will EVER work until we get control of our own borders.
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