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Rumsfeld Must Go

Bush Administration Donald Rumsfeld Criticism

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#61 Julianus

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 03:29 AM

It seems to me a little odd timing wise that these generals are coming out with their disagreement (not that they aren't justified) now, when US casuaties seem to be declining.
Imho the idea of force transfomation is not necessarily a bad one as long as the scope annd limitations on the missions our military is to take on is considered. Executing a regime change might be a feasible objective for a smaller high tech oriented military, but attempting to fundamentally affect a country or region's social and cultural predjudices is probably too much to be expected from such a force.

#62 Delvo

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 08:11 AM

View PostSpectacles, on Apr 17 2006, 03:04 PM, said:

So it's accurate to dismiss one's views as "Democrat party/Republican party rhetoric" even when we don't know the party affiliation of the speaker?
If it's the same kind of rhetoric, the description fits.

View PostSpectacles, on Apr 17 2006, 03:04 PM, said:

A general's saying that the Iraq War is "unnecessary" or its poor planning was pushed by "zealots" with unrealistic expectations in the DOD is logical grounds for dismissing his opinion as mere partisan rhetoric?
Whether or not you find it sufficient grounds for that, the point is the TYPE of grounds it would be: stemming entirely from what the guy actually said rather than from who he is. The same person would have made his own case look better by not adding those off-his-own-topic rant elements.

View PostJulianus, on Apr 18 2006, 04:29 AM, said:

It seems to me a little odd timing wise that these generals are coming out with their disagreement (not that they aren't justified) now, when US casuaties seem to be declining.
They've declined before, but it made no difference in how Americans talked about it, because only the increases get reported, not the decreases, so most people think it's only constantly increasing. For that matter, it could even be the reason the media's reporting on what these guys say now, because it gives them something to report about Iraq at a time when they otherwise wouldn't have anything to report about it. But for the generals themselves, they probably didn't decide their own timing in coming out with such stories based on that kind of consideration; they've either just reached a "breaking point" with a problem they've had with Rumsfeld for a while that just kept building up and accumulating, or wanted to say what's on their mind for a quite a while but could only recently get the media's attention.

#63 offworlder

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 09:08 AM

what?

there are people dying in Iraq every day, I've just been reading about the young officer of the royal queen's dragoon guards and how good a guy he was and how his da reports he was commited and up on all he was doing - the press can report about that. (I think there's nothing wrong with these generals airing their educated opinions on R, especially those who really know of his style of reign on that)
"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#64 Spectacles

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 07:25 PM

:D

Here's Bush on the matter of whether Rummy should stay or go:

Quote

"I hear the voices and I read the front page and I know the speculation," the president told reporters in the Rose Garden. "But I'm the decider and I decide what's best. And what's best is for Don Rumsfeld to remain as the secretary of defense."

http://news.yahoo.co...n_go_pr_wh/bush
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#65 MuseZack

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 08:02 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Apr 19 2006, 12:25 AM, said:

:D

Here's Bush on the matter of whether Rummy should stay or go:

Quote

"I hear the voices and I read the front page and I know the speculation," the president told reporters in the Rose Garden. "But I'm the decider and I decide what's best. And what's best is for Don Rumsfeld to remain as the secretary of defense."

http://news.yahoo.co...n_go_pr_wh/bush

Did he follow-up by defiantly declaring to Helen Thomas: "You're not the boss of me!"?

My kingdom for a President who doesn't always sound like a petulant six year-old in need of a long time out....
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We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
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#66 Hibblette

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 09:31 PM

^Nah-he's up for a good paddling.

Check that Casualty thing.

The more I think about this the angrier I get.  And it's at these generals.

No I'm not defending Bush or Rummy.

That's just it-even if this is due to them having some sort of vendetta that goes back before the war, they backed this administration and the decision they made.  They none showed the guts or the mentality to speak up.  Cowards.

They allowed young men and women to die knowing that it was all due to the folly that they were condoning just because...well their careers.  It's not their reputations, folks, it's their careers.  If they had been true American Patriots they would have stood up and said, "Uh Uh...this is folly.  WE will go down in flames and I will not be a part of it."

Believe me there would have been those in Congress, those of us among the people that would have backed them.  But of course yes their Careers would be over.  But this Country would not be in the downhill decline that it is in.

I'm just disgusted.

Too many men and women have put their life and are putting their lives on the line for these pompous politicians (and how many of them served in the armed forces?) and these Generals who do not reallllly care about this country and the people.
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#67 tennyson

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 09:56 PM

Thier are laws in the UCMJ(Uiformed Code of Military Justice) about serving military personnel commenting in any way about thier commender in chief. But that doesn't apply when they are retired, hence them speaking out now. It isn't just about a career it's about jail time.
Civilian control of the military is a fundamental portion of how our governmental system is setup and generals can suggest, inform and harrage the civilian leadership as much as they want in policy meetings but in the end what happens isn't thier choice. It is the choice of the comender in chief. Otherwise the generals would have invaded Cuba back in 1962 in the face of the dicovery of Soviet IRBM emplacements. But Kennedy chose a different option.
In much the same way the current president listened in meetings as ideas were presented and made a choice against the wisdom of the generals and years of planning and went more towards his other advisors. Then it became the military's job to implement it.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

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#68 Hibblette

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 10:35 PM

I don't care-they sat back and let it happen and they knew.  At least this is what they are saying-they knew.

Edited by Hibblette, 18 April 2006 - 10:35 PM.

"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#69 Delvo

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 10:49 PM

What did they "let" happen? What could they have prevented?

#70 Hibblette

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 06:47 PM

A War.

At the most a very expensive War.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#71 tennyson

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 07:13 PM

The only way the military could have stopped it once the choice was made and the orders came down the chain of command from the president would have been A, a military coup or B, every comander of every unit involved or thier theater commanders to either resign or mutiny by refusing to follow orders and go to jail. Otherwise someone else would just be brought in to replace them as unit commander until they found someone who would carry out the lawful order.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#72 Hibblette

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 08:43 PM

And the publicity from it would have had certain people asking questions that had been hid from them.

They don't care about this country-none of them.

It would have been worth it.  



I know...it would have been hard...jail all of that.  Meanwhile young men and women are dying in a war that is going to be drug out for another ten years.  But their behinds are safe and secure.

We should all have a better understanding as to why Deep Throat did what he did.  

But they didn't even do that.  It was an option.

Edited by Hibblette, 19 April 2006 - 08:44 PM.

"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#73 tennyson

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 09:33 PM

The assumptions built into what you are saying is that as a group the military leadership thought that going into Iraq was wrong and would have disagreed vehemenently enough with the order to then do something. I don't think either of us know enough about what the  various military personnel in charge were thinking and knew then to be able to say anything about that. There are literally thousands of people in leadership positions involved in the executing of that executive order and most of them haven't said anything that I'm aware of.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#74 Hibblette

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 09:53 PM

These are guys that are retired.

Safe now.  No sacrifice from them was made for the country only a little chink in the ol' armor.

You know it's so wonderful how people like Bush, Rove, Rummy, Cheney and these Generals and other Officers of the Pentagon can ask for the sacrifices of our troops but yet they forget to tell them and us that the sacrifice is not for the country but their careers.  The Emperor's Clothes.

This Country has turned into Europe of the 1600-1800's-just go along with the madness-it doesn't matter.  Because it's not about the people, it's about those that make the facade look good.

Everything in this Country now is about the facade.  A little white wash.

Terrorist attack-Homeland security, it looked and sounded good but it's really not.  Also attack the country that the Terrorist were nested in but eventually go more high profile to an ol' nemesis and get everyone pumped.

School's-test the heck out of kids and those that can't pass then shove them to the side (mind you not behind) because it will make the school systems look bad.

If your agents in the various Agency's can't find the info you want or they won't lie about it then-make them look bad, in fact blow their facade.

Healthcare-come up with one of the most convuluted drug plan for senior citizens that could possibly be-plus side to that was there were some actors that got jobs in commercials explaining how they would need to go get help with this.  But you see those actors are so smiling and happy as they tell you that you can get help figuring this out.

I mean even Brownie said it best in that memo about how good he looked in that picture.

Facade.

Edited by Hibblette, 19 April 2006 - 09:56 PM.

"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#75 Nonny

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 02:04 PM

Excellent segment on NPR's Talk of the Nation yesterday.

Quote

Politics & Society
Retired Generals Discuss Rumsfeld's Leadership

Talk of the Nation, April 25, 2006 Recently, a number of retired generals called for the resignation of Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. Retired generals discuss their views on Rumsfeld's tenure at the Department of Defense.

Guests:

Major Gen. John Batiste, Army commander, led First Infantry Division in Iraq War

(Ret.) Major Gen. Mike Davidson, former assistant to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

Andrew Bacevich, author of The New American Militarism: How Americans are Seduced by War; professor of International Relations at Boston University

edited to fix link

Edited by Nonny, 26 April 2006 - 02:24 PM.

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#76 BklnScott

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 05:47 PM

*whew*  A CIA-vet really stuck it to Rummy today.  

http://www.crooksand...5/04.html#a8164

Click through to the video.  They really don't know what to say when they're confronted with their own past statements.  "I never said that."  Really?  Let's go to the videotape.

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