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Military suicides up, PTSDers sent back into combat

Military US PTS Military Suicides 2006

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#41 Ogami

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 07:38 AM

G-Man wrote:

There was an increase in the number of suicides amongst service members serving in Iraq.

It's a matter of perspective. For instance, there was an article in the Army Times a few months back on a sharp increase in the incidents of sexual harassment or sexual assault. Upon reading the article itself, it revealed that there was a sharp increase in reporting because of the way the Army was now encouraging the reporting of such incidents. So was there a sharp increase, or a sharp increase in reporting of the issue?

Just a reminder that there are no absolutes.

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#42 G-man

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 08:31 AM

:Oo: So any previous incidents of people killing themselves were covered up/not reported?

/s/

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#43 Nonny

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 09:51 AM

View Post_ph, on May 16 2006, 11:31 AM, said:

Mine would be: save the horrors of war for times when it's necessary, not elective.   :whistle:
What ph said!  

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#44 Lin731

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 09:56 AM

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That's simply not true. Anyone who is exhibiting signs of being a danger to themselves or other soldiers will be processed out. I've seen it happen. On the other hand, those who do not show such symptoms but still claim to be too stressed to go back to combat will be sent. See the distinction? I do.

Apparently it is true Ogami hense the opening post of this thread commenting on soldiers showing clear sign of mental distress being drugged and sent back.

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And that proper treatment would be... avoiding all wars for the duration of their service? Come on, Lin. Don't be that naive. How many people do you think we'd have left on active duty if that was an easy option out of service?

Would proper treatment be doping you up to the gills and sending you back to foot patrol Ogami? That is what is happening to these soldiers. Their displaying symptoms of mental problems, so they drug em up and send em back. Would they give you a script for Vicodans, ship ya out and back to foot patrol, not do any follow up and hope for the best? I don't know if those soldiers would be fit to ever return to their old duties. What I DO know is they have been to activie duty, done their jobs and it's messed them up mentally. So they HAVE done their jobs and it's taken a toll on them.

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Some in the training platoon joked that they were already suffering PTSD, before they even left training. I don't doubt that PTSD is real, but these people who were sent back obviously didn't qualify for the "I'm going to harm myself or others" exit. And Corporal Klinger didn't go home early, sorry.

Or they DID (as the cases of suicide would indicate) and the military simply ignored it because they needed the bodies.

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I feeeeel their pain.... I feel their paaaaaain... I feel their pain.

Ah as opposed to neo con speak "Send someone elses kids off to die" or "I had other priorities" or "Where's the base again? I seem to have gotten lost for about a YEAR".

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See? Who needs to have an opinion on an issue? Just feel compassion, and you skip everything else over any question. Maybe I should switch philosophies, it looks like a lot less work than what I've been doing on issues thus far.

LOL...ummm, okay, God knows you've been overwhelming in your use of "logic" in the past  :crazy: I always find it interesting to hear "compassion" defined as a weakness (unless of course it's attached to "Compassionate Conservatives")  :D .  In the end though, it's not about being all "touchy, feely" it's about not sending soldiers out that aren't mentally stable and could be a real danger to themselves or others.
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#45 Nonny

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 10:01 AM

View PostLin731, on May 16 2006, 12:14 PM, said:

Sending soldiers back into combat who are showing the symptoms of PTSD is a danger to them, their fellow soldiers and the civilian population. If you break your foot, are they gonna send you on foot patrol? There are other capacities these soldiers could serve in while getting proper treatment.
What Lin said!  

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You've already said you have no frame of reference to PTSD, perhaps once you've been over their and seen some of what these soldiers have, you will then have a better understanding of it.
I do have a frame of reference to PTSD, and I am horrified that this is happening.  

As I have said before, since many of the drugs prescribed for PTSD can cause suicide ideation, those taking them should be in counseling at the very least, under observation if necessary.  Anything less is irresponsible at the very least, and tantamount to murder.

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Let's hope you don't get educated on that, I doubt it's a lesson anyone really wants to learn.
Amen to that!

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#46 Nonny

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 10:13 AM

View PostCall Me Robin, on May 16 2006, 08:31 PM, said:

View Postveganmom, on May 16 2006, 06:48 PM, said:

Alternative to war?
If we are fighting a real threat to humanity and the world, as in WWII, I think more people would sign up to serve their country and mankind.

Especially the 101st Fighting Keyboardists.   :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
*snerk*  Good one!  :lol:  

I don't guess I'll be sharing it with my 101st Airborne buds though.  :angel:  :devil:  

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#47 Nonny

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 10:22 AM

View PostG-man, on May 17 2006, 05:13 AM, said:

I don't know, it seems to me a critical point is being ignored here.

There was an increase in the number of suicides amongst service members serving in Iraq.  Alarmingly, many of them had previously been diagnosed with PTSD, yet were given anti-depressants and sent back. IOW, they had been diagnosed as a danger to themselves, were sent back, and lo and behold, they commit suicide.  

This is an example of the military taking, what I'm sure they believe, is a calculated risk in reintegrating PTSD victims back into their units to flesh out the roster, in light of the fact that the military is no longer able to adequately replenish their ranks with fresh recruits.
When you add medications known to cause suicide ideation, the risk needs to be calculated a whole lot more carefully.  A dead soldier who shouldn't have been sent back in isn't there anymore anyway. :(

View PostG-man, on May 17 2006, 06:31 AM, said:

:Oo: So any previous incidents of people killing themselves were covered up/not reported?
Military suicides weren't common knowledge until about eight or ten years ago when the suicide prevention efforts kicked off.  

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#48 Call Me Robin

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 03:58 PM

View PostNonny, on May 16 2006, 03:20 PM, said:

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on May 15 2006, 09:22 PM, said:

IMO sending soldiers with PTSD back into combat is like sending a recovering alcoholic into a bar....it's just not smart.
Worse, it's like sending recovering alcoholics into a bar and telling them they have to stay there without telling them when they get to leave.  

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They say they're having problems with recruitment...I have no doubt. What person in their right mind is going to want to sign up to support their country when they've seen how their country doesn't support the troops they have now.
That's why they're taking recruits who would never have passed the psych eval in the past.  


Yikes.  I wonder if some recent enlister might find this out and wonder if that's why he/she got in.
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#49 Ogami

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 04:05 PM

Lin wrote:

Apparently it is true Ogami hense the opening post of this thread commenting on soldiers showing clear sign of mental distress being drugged and sent back.

No, it is you who insist that anyone with PTSD must be a danger to themselves or others, and cannot perform their job. PTSD appears to be a huge catch-all for any sort of stress over combat, it's not that narrow a definition as you choose to make it. And apparently the Army does not share your view that all with PTSD be sent stateside for R&R. Just a guess, but if everyone who felt stress over being targeted for death was sent home, we'd have no one left.

Would proper treatment be doping you up to the gills and sending you back to foot patrol Ogami?

I would feel stressed over combat five minutes after someone shot at me. Military service is not measured in minutes, tours last 6 months, 1 year, or even 2 years in Iraq and Afghanistan. Again, you can choose to be naive over this if you want. Reality is that anyone in a combat zone is going to be feeling stressed for a lot longer than they'd like.

I don't know if those soldiers would be fit to ever return to their old duties.

There you go again, just pushing your opinion over that of the military's. You say they're unfit to return to their old duties, apparently that's a minority view.

Ah as opposed to neo con speak "Send someone elses kids off to die" or "I had other priorities" or "Where's the base again? I seem to have gotten lost for about a YEAR".

I asked a Warrant Officer about Bush's National Guard service. He said that there is no way they strap a plane onto you if you're not the real deal. I know the Democrats have nothing else to use against the man, so they've been shrieking about his Guard service like it was some sort of crime. Flying a jet is not a token job, simply awarded for political connections. Give up the fantasy, the moveon.org crowd need to stop snorting that crack.

In the end though, it's not about being all "touchy, feely" it's about not sending soldiers out that aren't mentally stable and could be a real danger to themselves or others.

The military attitude has always been that if something bad happens, then it's dealt with. If these people want to go home so bad, there are ways. As for being stressed over the notion of people trying to kill you in a combat zone, hey join the club. That would be everybody.

-Ogami

#50 Nonny

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 04:23 PM

View PostOgami, on May 17 2006, 02:05 PM, said:

No, it is you who insist that anyone with PTSD must be a danger to themselves or others, and cannot perform their job.

Who's insisting a thing like that?  No one posting here, certainly not the thread starter, and nobody quoted in the article.  

As a veteran permanently and totally disabled with PTSD, I am doing quite well in my currently stable life, but I have the advantage of counseling as often as I need it.  Pump me full of drugs that are known to cause suicide ideation, cut me off from my clinician, plunk me down in a place where folks are getting blown up all around me, and I bet I'd pull the pin too.  

It disgusts me that so many have had to conclude that suicide is the only way out.  

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

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All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#51 Ogami

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 06:36 PM

Nonny wrote:

Who's insisting a thing like that? No one posting here, certainly not the thread starter, and nobody quoted in the article.

The only argument used to object to PTSDers sent back into combat, that I've seen presented here, is that they are a danger to themselves and others. I would posit that anyone fitting that diagnosis would be discharged out. That would leave everyone else diagnosed with PTSD fit for duty. And if they're not fit for duty, then no one is, because no one wants to be shot at or blown up! So it's a ludicrous catch-all.

As a veteran permanently and totally disabled with PTSD, I am doing quite well in my currently stable life, but I have the advantage of counseling as often as I need it. Pump me full of drugs that are known to cause suicide ideation, cut me off from my clinician, plunk me down in a place where folks are getting blown up all around me, and I bet I'd pull the pin too.

I don't think they'd make you go. Each person is apparently reviewed on an individual basis, and the people referred to in this article were deemed good to go. Probably not happy about going back to "the Box", as it's called, but there's a job to do.

It disgusts me that so many have had to conclude that suicide is the only way out.

I don't see why. It should be a lot easier for them to aim a rifle at their foot. If they want out that bad. Or as Bart Simpson once suggested, they could make a pass at their commanding officer.

On a serious note, I just went to the Orlando VA hospital to visit a friend. He's in the nursing home, he's dying from Agent Orange. He was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam. His wife is a friend of my mother's, and she encouraged me in my career.

The guy in the VA room with him is older, he was in the first wave to hit the beaches at Normandy. He told me about how he was taken prisoner for eight days by the Germans. They kept him and others in a cellar and fed them only raw potatoes and water. As the Germans heard the Allies approach, they discussed killing their prisoners before bugging out. But this man understood German, so he feigned illness and then broke the neck of the German soldier who came down into the cellar to investigate. There was machine gun fire from above, the Allies were closer than the Germans thought. He and the other POWS were rescued.

I think of these brave men, dying, and wonder about those in this article who claim they are too stressed to do their duty. Have people changed over the generations? I don't think so. I think the expectations of people have changed, for the worse. There is much in war that is ignoble. But I met a few soldiers today who exemplify nobility and service.

-Ogami

#52 Nonny

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 07:16 PM

No matter how you twist and turn our words, you can't make us responsible for your tortuous reinterpretations.  You are ignoring our concerns that those who did indeed commit suicide after having gone through the eval process had less than adequate treatment.  Filling somebody up with drugs that are known to cause suicide ideation and sending them back into the situation causing their distress without counseling is nothing short of attempted murder.  Pencil whipping the eval on those who are not fit for duty just to keep boots on the ground is no good for them or for those they serve with.  

I am speaking from my personal experience of PTSD.  Who said I was volunteering to join the Army?  I am stable in spite of my PTSD because I have achieved balance in my life.  This individual basis that each soldier is supposedly reviewed on is apparently not working, because too many are pulling the pin.  Suicide means the review failed.  Perhaps you wouldn't mind living with a shot up foot, but I wouldn't consider it an option at all.  

I know quite a few veterans who are dying from or living with Agent Orange-related illnesses.  Did you know that the same government that is so callously failing in its supposed mission to cut the military suicide rate spent decades denying Agent Orange-related illness?  Some of the claims are still dragging out, some over 20 years in progress, or what passes for progress.  

No, we haven't changed over the generations.  Many brave men who fought in WWII came home under orders to put up, shut up, don't talk about it, and many of them gave up and shot themselves over the years.  My father was one.  From my own experiences with PTSD, I suspect that he had it too, but the same government that doesn't care now sure didn't care back in the 50s, 60s, 70s.  I am pleased to know that PTSD groups for WWII veterans have been cropping up in VAMCs and VetCenters all over the country, but I wish it could have happened when my father needed help.  

I meet soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen and coasties all the time who exemplify nobility and service.  And I am one of them.  

One more thing: my father was German American.  His family caught a lot of grief during WWI and WWII.  The likelihood that your friend's roommate knew German because he was German American is pretty high.  While he was saving his life and the lives of those imprisoned with him, was his family back home catching grief?  

Nonny

View PostOgami, on May 17 2006, 04:36 PM, said:

Nonny wrote:

Who's insisting a thing like that? No one posting here, certainly not the thread starter, and nobody quoted in the article.

The only argument used to object to PTSDers sent back into combat, that I've seen presented here, is that they are a danger to themselves and others. I would posit that anyone fitting that diagnosis would be discharged out. That would leave everyone else diagnosed with PTSD fit for duty. And if they're not fit for duty, then no one is, because no one wants to be shot at or blown up! So it's a ludicrous catch-all.

As a veteran permanently and totally disabled with PTSD, I am doing quite well in my currently stable life, but I have the advantage of counseling as often as I need it. Pump me full of drugs that are known to cause suicide ideation, cut me off from my clinician, plunk me down in a place where folks are getting blown up all around me, and I bet I'd pull the pin too.

I don't think they'd make you go. Each person is apparently reviewed on an individual basis, and the people referred to in this article were deemed good to go. Probably not happy about going back to "the Box", as it's called, but there's a job to do.

It disgusts me that so many have had to conclude that suicide is the only way out.

I don't see why. It should be a lot easier for them to aim a rifle at their foot. If they want out that bad. Or as Bart Simpson once suggested, they could make a pass at their commanding officer.

On a serious note, I just went to the Orlando VA hospital to visit a friend. He's in the nursing home, he's dying from Agent Orange. He was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam. His wife is a friend of my mother's, and she encouraged me in my career.

The guy in the VA room with him is older, he was in the first wave to hit the beaches at Normandy. He told me about how he was taken prisoner for eight days by the Germans. They kept him and others in a cellar and fed them only raw potatoes and water. As the Germans heard the Allies approach, they discussed killing their prisoners before bugging out. But this man understood German, so he feigned illness and then broke the neck of the German soldier who came down into the cellar to investigate. There was machine gun fire from above, the Allies were closer than the Germans thought. He and the other POWS were rescued.

I think of these brave men, dying, and wonder about those in this article who claim they are too stressed to do their duty. Have people changed over the generations? I don't think so. I think the expectations of people have changed, for the worse. There is much in war that is ignoble. But I met a few soldiers today who exemplify nobility and service.

-Ogami

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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#53 Ogami

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 11:42 PM

Nonny wrote:

Filling somebody up with drugs that are known to cause suicide ideation and sending them back into the situation causing their distress without counseling is nothing short of attempted murder.

Fine, the military wants to murder its own soldiers. Let's all hug and agree how evil they are. It's not twisting anyone's words to point out the absurdity of such a claim.

Did you know that the same government that is so callously failing in its supposed mission to cut the military suicide rate spent decades denying Agent Orange-related illness?

Yes, it's all a grand conspiracy of ultimate evil. Let's all hug and agree how evil the military is.

I am pleased to know that PTSD groups for WWII veterans have been cropping up in VAMCs and VetCenters all over the country, but I wish it could have happened when my father needed help.

I'm still unclear where I claimed that PTSD did not exist. To me it would seem stressful to have people trying to kill us before, during, and after combat. And I'm sorry your father didn't get help you think he needed.

Aside from a general villification of the military, however, you haven't offered any alternatives to simply sending everyone home who claims stressed over war. Hello, war is stressful. Nothing new there. Would you like to cancel all wars until they're no longer stressful? Not seeing a single actual alternative you're offering here besides bash the military.

One more thing: my father was German American. His family caught a lot of grief during WWI and WWII. The likelihood that your friend's roommate knew German because he was German American is pretty high. While he was saving his life and the lives of those imprisoned with him, was his family back home catching grief?

He told me he learned German in high school. I'm not sure I follow you here.

-Ogami

Edited by Ogami, 17 May 2006 - 11:43 PM.


#54 G-man

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 07:10 AM

Actually, the alternatives are ... call up the Draft so that you can have enough fresh recruits to fill out the unit roster, allowing those people with PTSD to be shipped home; -or- never rotate soldiers home, nor discharge any for any reason whatsoever, just keep them in Iraq until ALL the shooting stops, thereby you can prove statistically that the US soldier doesn't have PTSD; -or- perhaps, not go to war simply so the President can show up his daddy, in which case we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The solutions are all simple and oh so easy to implement.  The president ruled out the first and last one, and we are pretty much all but following the second solution.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#55 Ogami

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 10:05 AM

G-Man wrote:

Actually, the alternatives are ... call up the Draft so that you can have enough fresh recruits to fill out the unit roster, allowing those people with PTSD to be shipped home; -or- never rotate soldiers home, nor discharge any for any reason whatsoever, just keep them in Iraq until ALL the shooting stops, thereby you can prove statistically that the US soldier doesn't have PTSD; -or- perhaps, not go to war simply so the President can show up his daddy, in which case we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But the only people who desire a draft are Democrats, so they can maximize political gain out of it. That's all this is about, and the more they can chip away at the U.S. military, the better.

Someday we'll see genuine concern for the troops from the left. Not just a pretense for some other goal.

-Ogami

#56 Nonny

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 10:20 AM

View PostOgami, on May 18 2006, 08:05 AM, said:

Someday we'll see genuine concern for the troops from the left. Not just a pretense for some other goal.
We will never, however, see a genuine concern for the troops from the right.  Not just a source of cannon fodder for financial goals.  

Nonny
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#57 Nonny

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 10:36 AM

View PostOgami, on May 17 2006, 09:42 PM, said:

Nonny wrote:

Filling somebody up with drugs that are known to cause suicide ideation and sending them back into the situation causing their distress without counseling is nothing short of attempted murder.

Fine, the military wants to murder its own soldiers. Let's all hug and agree how evil they are. It's not twisting anyone's words to point out the absurdity of such a claim.
And denying that soldiers in need of counseling are being sent back to their units filled with drugs known to cause suicide ideation, and thus should never be prescribed for anyone without concurrent counseling, and who then commit suicide is a chilling truth and a tragedy.  

Quote

Did you know that the same government that is so callously failing in its supposed mission to cut the military suicide rate spent decades denying Agent Orange-related illness?

Yes, it's all a grand conspiracy of ultimate evil. Let's all hug and agree how evil the military is.
Your flippant response would shame your friend who's dying.  

Quote

I am pleased to know that PTSD groups for WWII veterans have been cropping up in VAMCs and VetCenters all over the country, but I wish it could have happened when my father needed help.

I'm still unclear where I claimed that PTSD did not exist. To me it would seem stressful to have people trying to kill us before, during, and after combat. And I'm sorry your father didn't get help you think he needed.

Aside from a general villification of the military, however, you haven't offered any alternatives to simply sending everyone home who claims stressed over war. Hello, war is stressful. Nothing new there. Would you like to cancel all wars until they're no longer stressful? Not seeing a single actual alternative you're offering here besides bash the military.
Thank you for your concern over my father.  

I don't believe that I said that you don't believe PTSD exists.  We disagree on how it should be treated.  

Quote

One more thing: my father was German American. His family caught a lot of grief during WWI and WWII. The likelihood that your friend's roommate knew German because he was German American is pretty high. While he was saving his life and the lives of those imprisoned with him, was his family back home catching grief?

He told me he learned German in high school. I'm not sure I follow you here.
If he is German American, then it's very likely that his family back home was suffering the same harassment that my father's family suffered during WWI and WWII.  If not, then he is a very unusual American of some other ethnicity for having studied German after WWI without a family reason for doing so.  

Nonny

edited, I hope not more than twice  :blush: , to fix the quote tags

Edited by Nonny, 18 May 2006 - 10:40 AM.

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#58 Nonny

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 10:43 AM

View PostG-man, on May 18 2006, 05:10 AM, said:

The solutions are all simple and oh so easy to implement.  The president ruled out the first and last one, and we are pretty much all but following the second solution.
Sad but true.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#59 Lin731

Lin731
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Posted 18 May 2006 - 11:58 AM

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But the only people who desire a draft are Democrats, so they can maximize political gain out of it. That's all this is about, and the more they can chip away at the U.S. military, the better.

Why was the draft idea put forward? It was to make a point. Point being that all those gungho, let's-put-a-boot-in-their ass, it's-the-American-wayers, needed a wake up call. It's easy to wave the flag and salute caskets that don't contain you and yours. It's quite another to put yourself and those you love in harms way. Somewhere along the way, this country came to believe that wars were fought by other people's husbands/wives, daughters/sons. They grew complacent and stopped asking the hard questions that SHOULD be asked before sending our people into a war. The draft was brought up as a reminder that Americans need to start THINKING again before they support policies that kill someone elses loved ones. In short, put your money where your mouth is. If the cause isn't worthy of risking your life or that of your children, then it needs a rethink.

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Someday we'll see genuine concern for the troops from the left. Not just a pretense for some other goal.

From "the left" of what Ogami? It's seems that the America hating, over-emotional "left" you go on and on about seems to care alot more about our people than the gungho, someone-elses-kids, right does. Where's the logic in the argument Ogami? Don't like that others don't agree with you?  Call them "the left", rinse and repeat". People aren't buying that tactic anymore. Here's a clue for ya, I'm not "the left" I'm just someone with more commonsense than the neo conservatives had in taking on this war or alot of the general public had in actually researching what was real and what was spin regarding it. My grandfather fought in WW2, my dad fought in Korea, my brother was on standby in the National Guard for the first Gulf war and served for 20 some years. Some were Republican, some were Dems but they ALL were Americans who served their country. Up until the day my dad died, he STILL had nightmares about Korea. If you wanted to wake him up, you did it from a distance (unless you wanted to get punched). That never left him in all the years of his life. So how about you stop beating that dead horse "left" of yours and actually talk about REAL issues?
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#60 Zwolf

Zwolf
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Posted 18 May 2006 - 01:00 PM

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But the only people who desire a draft are Democrats, so they can maximize political gain out of it. That's all this is about, and the more they can chip away at the U.S. military, the better.

Someday we'll see genuine concern for the troops from the left. Not just a pretense for some other goal.

It's looking like you have more concern for the way troop-stress will affect Bush than how it'll affect the soldiers.  Aren't you saying that if we have too much troop-stress "chipping away at the military" that we'll end up with a draft, which would be a bad reflection on Bush and political gain for the Dems?  And that's why you're in favor of sending overstressed troops back in... to protect Bush's rep (all 28% of it)?

You talk about politicizing everything, and a lack of concern for the troops, but you're spending a whole thread trying to justify putting soldiers with stress disorder back into combat, and making undue accusations against Democrats when this isn't even a partisan issue.  

Who's "politicizing" everything again?

You're missing a big point.  Yes, war is stressful for everyone involved... but not everyone goes through the same stressful situations, and not everyone deals with it the same way.  Pick three people and have them run a mile; they're all going to have different levels of exhaustion at the end of the mile, because they're all in different levels of fitness.  It works the same mentally.  Some people can't deal with the situation, and they won't do anyone any good being put back into it.  They may kill themselves, they may snap and kill others, they may freeze up and become a liability to the squad, or at the very least they'll be a demoralizing factor for the others.   None of these things are good.  I don't think anyone sane wants to go into combat, but if the suicide rate is climbing among stress cases, then the military's obviously in some need of checking their evaluation procedures in regards to PTSD, because it's not getting good results.   And a re-evaluation of those procedures isn't going to lead to a draft.  The numbers in contention are not that big.  Nobody is trying to cause a draft, especially not for political capital.  I'm cynical about our politicians, but, sheesh, find a limit.  A draft's not going to make anyone in the government look good.

Nonny put up this thread because she's concerned that troop suicides are up, and that it may be caused because people with stress disorder are being sent back in when they're not ready.  Yet somehow - probably because you know she's a Democrat - you try to paint it as a "military bashing" thread, and drag out the obsessive claims against the Democrat boogeymen again.  How does not wanting troops to commit suicide count as "military bashing"?  Especially from a veteran?  And how does concern over an increase in troop suicides become a Republican/Democrat issue?  

Seriously, you're not going to get very far complaining that the other side is "politicizing" every issue... when you politicize every issue.

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Military, US, PTS, Military Suicides, 2006

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