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Military suicides up, PTSDers sent back into combat

Military US PTS Military Suicides 2006

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#61 Nonny

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 06:04 PM

View PostZwolf666, on May 18 2006, 11:00 AM, said:

Nonny put up this thread because she's concerned that troop suicides are up, and that it may be caused because people with stress disorder are being sent back in when they're not ready.
Seriously, is anybody else worried about self-medicated troops of the 21st century, drugged to the eyeballs a la Q in the ST:TNG opener?  Drugged, willing and able enough is not a good idea, as far as I'm concerned, but I'm wondering about this top Army mental health expert, Col. Elspeth Ritchie.  I sincerely hope she is not experimenting with drug levels, readiness and lives.  :eek4:

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How does not wanting troops to commit suicide count as "military bashing"?  Especially from a veteran?
I'd like to hear the answers too.  

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#62 Rhea

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 06:22 PM

I wrote everybody I could think of - and I do mean everybody. Dear Lord, this might as well be WWI where they shot shell-shocked troops as deserters.

If McCain hadn't lost my trust, I'd write him too (besides, if you're not a constituent, you can't email a senator).

Edited by Rhea, 18 May 2006 - 06:33 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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#63 Rhea

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 06:32 PM

View PostOgami, on May 18 2006, 08:05 AM, said:

G-Man wrote:

Actually, the alternatives are ... call up the Draft so that you can have enough fresh recruits to fill out the unit roster, allowing those people with PTSD to be shipped home; -or- never rotate soldiers home, nor discharge any for any reason whatsoever, just keep them in Iraq until ALL the shooting stops, thereby you can prove statistically that the US soldier doesn't have PTSD; -or- perhaps, not go to war simply so the President can show up his daddy, in which case we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But the only people who desire a draft are Democrats, so they can maximize political gain out of it. That's all this is about, and the more they can chip away at the U.S. military, the better.

Someday we'll see genuine concern for the troops from the left. Not just a pretense for some other goal.

-Ogami


Ogami - you, young man, make me want to vomit.

I used to spend time in the psych wards of Letterman Hospital with guys that were so messed up you couldn't even have a conversation with them, and other guys who had climbed so far into their heads that they may never have come back.

Nonny posted this thread out of concern and outrage that troops that are clearly unfit are being sent back into combat against the Army's own regulations, and many are committing suicide. I hope to God the rest aren't putting Iraqi noncombatants, or even worse, their own comrades in danger.

You've never seen war close up and you probably never will. All of your ideas of combat are based on some bizarre idea of flags waving and banners flying and Sousa played by a marching band.

It's terrible - it's killing and being killed and dirt and your feet rotting and being homesick and scared all the friggin' time. There's no damn glory, just survival.

And before you go there, no I didn't serve in Viet Nam, but I spent a lot of time during nursing school in the wards at Letterman Hospital and the guys broke my heart and I'll never be the same.

You need to get your ass over there or stop this whiny business about how Nonny's thread is some left-wing plot.

It's a genuine concern, one I share, for people who have no business in combat and can't be counted on (and the least and worst of the problem is suicide).

How DARE you trivialize it as some kind of left-wing breast-beating?

Warn away mods. How dare this pipsqueak half-assed right wing loony dare to criticize REAL soldiers?

Edited by Rhea, 18 May 2006 - 06:34 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#64 Nonny

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 06:34 PM

View PostRhea, on May 18 2006, 04:22 PM, said:

I wrote everybody I could think of - and I do mean everybody. Dear Lord, this might as well be WWI where they shot shell-shocked troops as deserters.
{{{{{{{{{{{Rhea}}}}}}}}}}}

Patton hit a couple of them, which is fairly well known, but what is less known is that Eisenhower told him to knock it off.  I don't know if this made it into Eisenhower's biography, but when interviewed he related this and then said something extremely unflattering about Patton.  Good to know that Ike wasn't in favor of physical brutality of the mentally scarred.  

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#65 Nonny

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 06:53 PM

View PostRhea, on May 18 2006, 04:32 PM, said:

I used to spend time in the psych wards of Letterman Hospital with guys that were so messed up you couldn't even have a conversation with them, and other guys who had climbed so far into their heads that they may never have come back.
Because we lost our favorite group last summer, some of my friends have been climbing back in.  :(  One of them keeps his head down, but he flips his hand in a tiny wave to let you know he hears you.  It breaks my heart that after all these years, that's amazing progress for him.

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Nonny posted this thread out of concern and outrage that troops that are clearly unfit are being sent back into combat against the Army's own regulations, and many are committing suicide. I hope to God the rest aren't putting Iraqi noncombatants, or even worse, their own comrades in danger.
Damn straight!  

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And before you go there, no I didn't serve in Viet Nam, but I spent a lot of time during nursing school in the wards at Letterman Hospital and the guys broke my heart and I'll never be the same.
I hope you know that nurses are angels to them, still.  

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It's a genuine concern, one I share, for people who have no business in combat and can't be counted on (and the least and worst of the problem is suicide).

How DARE you trivialize it as some kind of left-wing breast-beating?
It's beyond me that trivialization like this could happen, no matter how polarized the people of this country have become.   :angry:  

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#66 Ogami

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 06:57 PM

Nonny wrote:

And denying that soldiers in need of counseling are being sent back to their units filled with drugs known to cause suicide ideation, and thus should never be prescribed for anyone without concurrent counseling, and who then commit suicide is a chilling truth and a tragedy.

What a gyp. All I ever got prescribed was Iboprofen.

Your flippant response would shame your friend who's dying.

My friend would probably have died if the buddies he depended on were all sent stateside for stress disorders.

If not, then he is a very unusual American of some other ethnicity for having studied German after WWI without a family reason for doing so.

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Lin wrote:

Why was the draft idea put forward? It was to make a point.

So you missed the dozen or so "Bush has to start the Draft" threads on this board? I do try to keep track of the discussions here, and the reasons why. In this case, Democrats pine for a draft, solely for the political fallout it would cause Republicans. What a revolting attitude, yet a great barometer on just how "concerned" Democrats are for our troops. Sure they are.

Somewhere along the way, this country came to believe that wars were fought by other people's husbands/wives, daughters/sons.

In the Civil War, the wealthy could simply pay for a poor person to take their place.

The draft was brought up as a reminder that Americans need to start THINKING again before they support policies that kill someone elses loved ones. In short, put your money where your mouth is. If the cause isn't worthy of risking your life or that of your children, then it needs a rethink.

The draft issue was brought up by extreme left Democrat congresspeople, who have never had anything good to say about the military. You'd need some reputable people to suggest the draft, not antiwar kooks.

From "the left" of what Ogami? It's seems that the America hating, over-emotional "left" you go on and on about seems to care alot more about our people than the gungho, someone-elses-kids, right does.

If the left is so concerned for our troops, why the glee over Abu Ghraib? Seems to me the left rejoiced that they could once again hate the military, as is their preference. And these are the people who are thinking of our troops by yearning for a draft? Bunk.

So how about you stop beating that dead horse "left" of yours and actually talk about REAL issues?

Quite right, as the "issue" of widespread suffering of PTSD, serious enough for people to be sent home for psychiatric counseling, is not a real issue, but one created by people like that Vietnam-era psychiatrist who came up with it in the first place.

Ta,

-Ogami

#67 Ogami

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 07:01 PM

Rhea wrote:

How DARE you trivialize it as some kind of left-wing breast-beating?

Because Leftists, by definition, shriek with psychotic outrage at the notion that anyone dares disagree with them.

How dare this pipsqueak half-assed right wing loony dare to criticize REAL soldiers?

I suppose if I return from a 1-year tour of Iraq, I'll be told real soldiers have 2-year tours, so my views won't count then either.

I really wonder how those on the left live in a perpetual state of outrage. It must be stressful.

-Ogami

#68 Shalamar

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 07:01 PM

I'd like every one to take a deep breath, and  please calm down.

Please remeber that Ogami IS currently in the ARMY, and fought to get there.

I know that this is a hot button topic for many but I ask that every one remain civil and discuss the posts NOT the poster.

That is the guideline here and it does no one any honour to tear it to shreds, just because one feels strongly about the subject. It can be discussed without lapsing into incivility and name calling.
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#69 Nonny

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 07:06 PM

View PostOgami, on May 18 2006, 04:57 PM, said:

Quite right, as the "issue" of widespread suffering of PTSD, serious enough for people to be sent home for psychiatric counseling, is not a real issue, but one created by people like that Vietnam-era psychiatrist who came up with it in the first place.
Well, that would make him my creator, wouldn't it?  Perhaps I should sing hymns of praise, since I'm alive today because of his excellent work.  

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#70 Nonny

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 07:17 PM

View PostShalamar, on May 18 2006, 05:01 PM, said:

I'd like every one to take a deep breath, and  please calm down.
Excellent advice for a PTSDer like me.

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Please remeber that Ogami IS currently in the ARMY, and fought to get there.
That does not give him the right to make fun of those currently under arms or those of us who have stood down.  

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I know that this is a hot button topic for many but I ask that every one remain civil and discuss the posts NOT the poster.
Fine.  Some of the POSTS here are insulting to veterans and to currently serving troops, and I am not happy.  I have determined upon a course of action, which I will not, of course, share at this mb.  

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That is the guideline here and it does no one any honour to tear it to shreds, just because one feels strongly about the subject. It can be discussed without lapsing into incivility and name calling.
Apparently it can't, with the extreme provocation being offered.  

I remain concerned about the increase in suicides among the troops.  Every suicide is a failure of a pysch eval, perhaps of an entire policy.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#71 waterpanther

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 07:20 PM

Well said, Rhea, and very eloquent.

:welldone:
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#72 Shalamar

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 07:28 PM

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Fine. Some of the POSTS here are insulting to veterans and to currently serving troops, and I am not happy.

I am NOT asking you to be happy, I am requesting every one to be civil.

and if you (generic ) can not be civil then it might be best not to post for a few hours until you ( generic ) have calmed down.

This is every ones last cautioning.
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#73 Rhea

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 07:31 PM

View PostOgami, on May 18 2006, 05:01 PM, said:

Rhea wrote:

How DARE you trivialize it as some kind of left-wing breast-beating?

Because Leftists, by definition, shriek with psychotic outrage at the notion that anyone dares disagree with them.

How dare this pipsqueak half-assed right wing loony dare to criticize REAL soldiers?

I suppose if I return from a 1-year tour of Iraq, I'll be told real soldiers have 2-year tours, so my views won't count then either.

I really wonder how those on the left live in a perpetual state of outrage. It must be stressful.

-Ogami

I suppose if you ever actually serve you'll be singing a different tune when you get home. Proud to have served, wishing you didn't have the memories you do. But since you know it all, this dicussion or any other is pointless.

I know a lot of wise young people, but you're not among them. You're singing a tune and you're stuck on one or two of the stanzas - compassion, true bravery, tragedy (and war is ALWAYS a failure and a tragedy, even when the cause is just) - these things are meaningless to you. I know a lot of young people like you and God help us all if we ever have to rely on you. I'll take some of the teenagers on this board any day.

Edited by Rhea, 18 May 2006 - 07:36 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#74 Rhea

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 07:32 PM

View PostNonny, on May 18 2006, 05:17 PM, said:

View PostShalamar, on May 18 2006, 05:01 PM, said:

I'd like every one to take a deep breath, and  please calm down.
Excellent advice for a PTSDer like me.


ROTFLOL!  :angel:

Just for the record, if I have an urge to discuss this particular issue, it will not be at this board. I'm out of this thread. Any time anyone can make fun of the very real problems of people who are broken by combat (and the sad thing is nobody knows till they're actually in it if they're going to be one of the ones who break or not) it's definitely not the place for a real dicussion.

Ogami, you're back on my ignore list. On that happy day when you finally grow up I'm sure somebody will tell me.

Edited by Rhea, 18 May 2006 - 07:40 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#75 Ogami

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 08:53 PM

http://www.rushlimba...7.ImageFile.gif

-Ogami

#76 Ogami

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 08:59 PM

Rhea wrote:

I suppose if you ever actually serve you'll be singing a different tune when you get home.

Let's assume in a flight of fancy that I never posted to this thread (three cheers!), what would it look like?

This thread would comprise twenty responses all comprising 1) Sympathy for those PTSDers sent back into combat and 2) Condemnation of an ogre-ish U.S. military.

As Rhea and Nonny have proven conclusively, this is the sole authorized response to such a thread. You may not think any differently than the "compassionate" ones, all responses must agree with them. Then the pretense of compassion ends, if you disagree with them.

I do not apologize for broaching the unity of your thread. I merely point out, as always, that there can be another view. And your approval of my opinion, Rhea, is not required. Nor should it be.

-Ogami

#77 G-man

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 08:51 AM

Actually, the reason why the draft is always brought up isn't a political issue.  It is an issue of reality.  If you send troops into a prolonged war you WILL NEED TO REPLACE THEM.  

In Korea it was a question of calling up the reserves as their first step, which included those WWII veterans who had already served a number of years in combat.  This created such a backlash that the next conflict, to help minimize the impact on US society in general resorted to the draft.  This was the Vietnam Conflict.

Now, it turned out that the draft impacted society, and there were large outcries against it, and many people sought to avoid it, so the solution that the military returned to was to call up the reserves for the Gulf War and the Invasion/Occupation of Iraq, just as they had done for Korea.  And, you know what? The recruitment for the Army and Marines are falling beneath the levels they need to maintain their strength, and the reserves are losing out on their enlistee's/re-enlistees because they know that in this instance, the Reserve will be going in to a hostile zone.  Proof positive that in today's society an all volunteer army will be incapable of sustaining itself within a prolonged conflict.

So, what can you do?  You, Ogami, have yet to propose any other alternatives.  You see the calling for a draft to be a deep died plot to discredit the Bush administration, as opposed to a real-world solution to the very existant problem that the military is now incapable of preserving their troop strength and level of combat readiness.  Those service men ready to return to active service out of loyalty tp their comrades are outweighed by those who are ready to say "good bye, good luck, and good riddance."

/s/

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#78 Zwolf

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 09:47 AM

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So you missed the dozen or so "Bush has to start the Draft" threads on this board? I do try to keep track of the discussions here, and the reasons why. In this case, Democrats pine for a draft, solely for the political fallout it would cause Republicans.

I think you'd have to flush twice to get that one down.  Until something more centrist comes along, I'm a Democrat, and I don't want a draft.  I don't know of any other Democrat (or Republican, for that matter) who's hoping for a draft, either.  I know people (of all stripes) who are worried that we may have to resort to a draft due to Bush's mismanagement of our military resources, and underperformance at the recruiting level (much of which is due to Bush's breach of contract with the soldiers), but everyone's hoping we don't have to resort to that.  You seem to have immersed yourself in some kind of weird world where politics is so important that it's overridden everything else, but I don't think that's where the rest of us live.  Nearly everyone in this country stands the risk of losing a loved one if there's a draft - if not your own kids, then a friend's kids, or a cousin, or a nephew... somebody.  I don't think anybody's eager to put someone through that just to give "the other team" a black eye... which it probably wouldn't do, anyway, since there'd likely be repercussions in the voting booth for anyone who voted to reinstate the draft, be they Dem or Repub.

I hope you're just playing at rhetoric and don't really believe this gack you're tossing around.

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What a revolting attitude,

And what a sickening thing to make up and attribute to somebody!

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yet a great barometer on just how "concerned" Democrats are for our troops. Sure they are.

A barometer of your own construct, calibrated to predict only the weather you want.  It's always a fun tactic to make things up and then express your disgust at them, but it's hollow.  You know what's wrong with the statement, "Shame on those Republicans for making puppies eat broken glass!" ?  The fact that Republicans haven't made puppies eat broken glass.  But, if I ran around saying it over and over again as if it were true, and using it as the basis for arguments, some people might mistake it for rational discourse.  It's also fun to hold people accountable for stuff you make up and attribute to them.  Why are you in favor of feeding glass to puppies?!?


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In the Civil War, the wealthy could simply pay for a poor person to take their place.

And that's not too far removed from what they're doing now.  'Cept now the rich just get "defferments."  How many was it Cheney had again?  Five?  That's one for each finger, even though he only needed one finger to send his message to the people who thought rich boys should fight, too.


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If the left is so concerned for our troops, why the glee over Abu Ghraib?

You paint concern as glee... because concern wouldn't serve the agenda.  People are ticked off about Abu Grahib, not gleeful about it.  But "ticked off" doesn't work as well to move "the plot" along, so, with a little editorial rewrite, it becomes "glee."  This is all a novel, right?

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Seems to me the left rejoiced that they could once again hate the military, as is their preference.

"Seems to you" being the operative phrase there.  If the "left" hate the military so much, how come people at work who are way left of me have organized packages to be sent to the troops?

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And these are the people who are thinking of our troops by yearning for a draft? Bunk.

"Bunk" is the word I'd use, yeah.

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Quite right, as the "issue" of widespread suffering of PTSD, serious enough for people to be sent home for psychiatric counseling, is not a real issue, but one created by people like that Vietnam-era psychiatrist who came up with it in the first place.

You'll have to forgive me if I give more weight to the findings of thousands of experienced doctors, psychologists, and people who've actually worked with PTSD sufferers than to your convenient wishes.

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Because Leftists, by definition, shriek with psychotic outrage at the notion that anyone dares disagree with them.

By your definition... which seems to be all you're really interested in working with.  "I say it is this way, and therefore, it is this way... insurmountable evidence to the contrary be damned!"  That's part of a disease I think of as "solipsistic fibrosis."  Unfortunately there aren't any telethons for that yet, but one could be invented any time now.   C'mon, fella, drop the "definitions" and work with what's really there, rather than attributed constructs.  There's no "psychotic outrage."  We're disagreeing, but my blood pressure's so level right now you could calibrate a pool table with it.


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I really wonder how those on the left live in a perpetual state of outrage. It must be stressful.

I s'poze it would be, were it true.    

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One good pic deserves another! :)  County-by-county map, by current approval rating

Cheers,

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I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
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#79 Ogami

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 10:58 AM

G-Man wrote:

Actually, the reason why the draft is always brought up isn't a political issue. It is an issue of reality. If you send troops into a prolonged war you WILL NEED TO REPLACE THEM.

There were a few occasions during basic training where I fantacized that I was in a Draft, and that everything would be easier, and we'd be through it in 60 days. As I assume a Draft would be.

In Korea it was a question of calling up the reserves as their first step, which included those WWII veterans who had already served a number of years in combat. This created such a backlash that the next conflict, to help minimize the impact on US society in general resorted to the draft. This was the Vietnam Conflict.

In Vietnam, there was a lowering of quality of draftees over volunteers, as should be expected. However a large number of draftees turned out to be the finest soldiers who served in that war, from all accounts. So I don't know if it would be good or bad. More doesn't automatically equate to better. I don't believe that Gulf War I's 500,000 strong force would have made Iraq any better in 2006. Different mission.

So, what can you do? You, Ogami, have yet to propose any other alternatives.

I have spent the last five months with dozens of combat veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan. My Drill Sergeants were almost all combat vets, and we had dozens of NCOs and Specialists who were retraining into my MOS. While they had rivers of stories and good advice about going to Iraq, none of them were stressed out of their minds over the prospect of going back. We had two people in my platoon who went to the mental hospital, neither of whom had even gotten out of initial training yet. And their fate is outprocessing, not a trip to Iraq. So the problem of PTSDers, while it certainly exists, would seem to be overblown by this "advocacy" group. (And I use that term with great reservation. What are they advocating, again?)

Those service men ready to return to active service out of loyalty tp their comrades are outweighed by those who are ready to say "good bye, good luck, and good riddance."

That is completely alien to my experience with the combat vets I have met and lived with. Maybe my personal anecdotes aren't worth a darn (as when Nonny used my VA hospital visit as another angle to attack me), but they are what I go by.

-Ogami

#80 Ogami

Ogami
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Posted 19 May 2006 - 11:04 AM

Zwolf wrote:

One good pic deserves another!  County-by-county map, by current approval rating

Say it ain't so!  :giljotiini:

-Ogami



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Military, US, PTS, Military Suicides, 2006

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