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Health Alcoholics Anonymous AA Sham Criticism 2006

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#1 gsmonks

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 02:45 PM

Rather than respond to someone's mention of AA in another thread, I thought I'd start a new one dedicated to it.

The truth of twelve-step programmes like AA, NA, CA and others, is that they're a scam. Their rate of effectiveness is exactly equal to no treatment at all- translation: their effectiveness = a bit fat zero. AA people will try to tell you otherwise, as will some health-care professionals who don't know what they're talking about, but the indisputable facts are that AA is a sham that has absolutely no effectiveness. The rate in society of people quitting on their own with no help whatsoever is identical to AA's "success" rate.

Despite the overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence that this is so, these organisations not only continue, unchallenged, but are widely recommended by health-care professionals who should know better.

Here's something on the founding and mentality of AA:

http://www.orange-pa...ge-Tiebout.html

I've always dismissed this organisations as baseless cults, and I was surprised, upon doing an internet search, that many people share this exact perception:

http://www.positivea...rw/ofcourse.htm

http://oldweb.uwp.ed...ce/aacult01.htm

http://www.moonmac.c..._Called_AA.html

http://www.morerevealed.com/books/coc/

http://www.orange-pa...ge-cult_a0.html

http://www.orange-pa...range-cult.html

http://www.freedomof.../is_aa_cult.htm

http://www.geocities...troltactics.htm

http://religiousmove...du/nrms/aa.html

And this is just the tip of the iceberg!

And as to AA being the personification of b.s., well, there are these:

http://72.14.203.104...=en&lr=&strip=1

http://www.laxat.com...nge-879760.html

http://72.14.203.104...a&ct=clnk&cd=10

http://www.angry.net/groups/a/aa.htm

http://www.yahooka.c...p/t-101260.html

http://www.deanesmay...ves/006527.html

. . . and so on.

I personally want to see AA banned and made illegal, and I want all those who send people for mandatory AA "treatment" changed with fraud.

I'm not sure why no one has yet moved to shut down AA, but I'm guessing the reason is its association with religion, which is how its members are able to garner false credibility and hide from being held to account.
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#2 Anastashia

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 02:59 PM

I disagree
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Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
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isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
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#3 Godeskian

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 03:01 PM

Why?

Not putting down an opinion one way or another, but simply stating that you disagree without giving a reasoning doesn't leave much room for debate/

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#4 G1223

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 03:02 PM

Sorry seen too many friends who were better off after meeting Bill W.  AA might not have worked for you but there are other people it has helped a great deal.
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#5 Hawkeye

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 03:04 PM

Surely it's all about what works for different people. Some people obviously find it helpful to have that kind of support or whatever and some people dont. If AA didnt exist, those successes they claim might not have happened.

...also, not having attended a meeting I wouldnt know, but do you have to pay to go to AA meetings?

Edited by hawkeye, 11 June 2006 - 03:05 PM.

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#6 Anastashia

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 03:08 PM

Gode, just because GS calls AA an "ineffective scam" when it has clearly been effective for many people. So what if the same number of people could have done it by themselves, the particular people it helped might not have been able to do so. It worked for many and therefor is not ineffective or a scam.
The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

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#7 FlatlandDan

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 05:03 PM

Wooshing this over the OT, where I think it'll get a bit more attention comments.

I personally think that when stopping an adiction you need a support group.  If you don't have friends and family who are willing to step up or simply don't have anyone then AA (and other groups like it) are great.

I think of people who go to WeightWatchers.  Yes, you can shed pounds on your own.   But it's great to have your peers go well done for having lost those 2.4 pounds.  It's an ego boost to be able to say that you've gone down.  Motivation to keep trying to better yourself.  It must be great to be able to say that it's been two days/weeks/years since you've had a drink and know that someone is paying attention to you when you're saying it.
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#8 gsmonks

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 05:24 PM

There is no data that supports the assertion that AA has helped anyone, ever, except the bogus, erronious junk put out by AA themselves.

There is plenty of data that demonstrates that AA's philosophy is bogus, beyond any shadow of doubt.

I posted links to actual information. Apparently you nay-sayers ignored it or didn't bother to read it.

"I disagree" isn't presenting an argument. A counter-argument would be information, data, facts.

"AA has worked for lots of people" is a falsehood that can be easily demonstrated to BE a falsehood. The fact that no treatment at all has the same batting-average as AA demonstrated that AA does exactly nothing.

The core scam people buy into is the assertion "I know people who went to AA and it worked for them". This is a false allegation because in truth these same people would have quit without AA. The only reason they went to AA was because they were told that's where you go to quit. Add to that the FACT that AA's success-rate is exactly equal to zero treatment, and by employing simple deductive logic (evidently some of you missed that day in class) one may remove AA from the equation and be left with the correct answer, that a person motivated to quit will do so without any "help" from AA.

Let's be clear on a few things here:

I am not, nor have I ever been a drinker. I don't drink, smoke or do drugs. Never have.

I do, however, know a cult when I see one, and I know flawed logic when I see it, and I can identify false arguments when presented with them. I know when someone's peddling baloney, and I know when people have bought into baseless claims.

Here are the facts, yet again. I suggest you nay-sayers read this:

http://www.orange-pa...ectiveness.html

Here's what the prestigious Baldwin Institute has to say on the subject:

http://www.baldwinre...tdoesnt2004.cfm

What's really SICK about AA is the coercion involved in collusion with the goverment and medical establishments:

http://www.peele.net/lib/aaabuse.html

Here's more on what amounts to a crackpot organisation:

http://www.orange-pa...ge-cult_a4.html

http://www.orange-pa...e-drydrunk.html

Edited by gsmonks, 11 June 2006 - 05:24 PM.

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#9 Delvo

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 05:44 PM

View Postgsmonks, on Jun 11 2006, 06:24 PM, said:

"AA has worked for lots of people" is a falsehood that can be easily demonstrated to BE a falsehood. The fact that no treatment at all has the same batting-average as AA demonstrated that AA does exactly nothing.
Actually, no, because you're talking about two different sets of people: those who went to AA and those who didn't. The same numbers could mean different things for two different groups of people that behave differently from each other (which these two sets are known to do, since the defining difference between them is a choice, a behavior).

For example, if those who go to AA do so because they've already tried and failed to quit without it, then that group would consist of people for whom quitting is more difficult than it is for the group that doesn't go to AA, in which case a worse success rate would be expected if AA participation were neutral, in which case an equal success rate means AA improved their odds. Or, for another example, if those who go to AA do so because they take the problem more seriously and are more determined to do whatever they must to fix it whereas those who don't are more likely to be in denial or just underestimating the challenge, then a higher success rate would be expected for the group that's more willing to work on it and went to AA, so an equal rate would mean AA actually decreased their odds.

Either way, the point is that equal success rates in and out of AA don't mean something as simple as you've presented, until you've accounted for the other differences between the two sets of people.

#10 Anastashia

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 05:58 PM

I took a look at one of your so called references GS, laughable!

Orange Papers clearly indicates on its homepage that it's "one man's" opinion. That man doesn't even have enough repect for his own analysis to give his name calling himself "Agent Orange". Yep, really a worthwhile endeavor to consider any of that invective as capable of making a reasonable case for saying that AA isn't a viable option for some alcoholics.
The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

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#11 emsparks

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 06:01 PM

Gsmonks;
Someone I care very much about is thirty years sober because they go to meetings every weeks. That’s all I need.

I know many, many people that own their lives to twelve step programs.

I am sorry that you feel the way you do, it’s your loss…

OH and by the way I am not affiliated with AA in any way…

AA has saved lives and I know that for a fact…

Go ahead call me a lier or a dupe, it will not alter the fact that your information is wrong, and I don’t care how many links you think you have...
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#12 Shalamar

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 06:05 PM

And GS, I'm calling you on it too- I won't say for all, or even many - but I do know that it worked for my youngest brother.

I have no desire to go into the gory details, but he tried to quit on his own and couldn't.

with AA he'd been clean many a year now.

So for him, just one person  - it worked.

It may not for others - I can agree with that but to say that it is completely bogus is wrong on your aprt.
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#13 White Tiger

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 06:08 PM

I feel that is it helps just one person...its a success.
To be honest I am quite uncertain what the alternative is.
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#14 waterpanther

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 06:17 PM

I know way too many people who tell me that AA saved their marriages, their relationships with their children, their lives.  They are also, mostly, people for whom other forms of rehab/therapy failed.  As one puts it, "AA is the last house on the block.  The next stop is the cemetery."

I take it your real beef is with the "higher power" part of the program?
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#15 gsmonks

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 06:19 PM

Can you guys not read?

The Baldwin Institute is a reputable organisation that is not given to speculation and regurgitating nonsense.

That AA's success rate is the same as no treatment at all has been demonstrated time and again. There is nothing here to argue.

It has been demonstrated, time and time again, that people who recover from alchoholism will do so on their own, with or without AA's help.

There are mountains of studies that support that assertion.

All you jokers are doing is saying "Liar, liar, pants on fire" and thumbing your noses.

Let's see you post some reputable info. Put some facts where your mouth is. And don't just regurgitate AA's or some religious site's crackpot's claims.

Let's see the beef.

http://204.147.80.67...ept_Secret.html

http://www.baldwinre.../alcoholism.cfm

I suggest you clean the wax out of your ears this time and take the time to read this:

http://www.baldwinresearch.com/

I suggest you also read this:

http://www.decimmune...year=2005&id=10

I'll take their opinions over your crackpot assertions any day of the week. AA is a scam. Get over it.
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#16 gsmonks

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 06:28 PM

View Postwaterpanther, on Jun 11 2006, 05:17 PM, said:

I know way too many people who tell me that AA saved their marriages, their relationships with their children, their lives.  They are also, mostly, people for whom other forms of rehab/therapy failed.  As one puts it, "AA is the last house on the block.  The next stop is the cemetery."

I take it your real beef is with the "higher power" part of the program?

No, my beef is with the claim that AA does anything at all. The facts and endless studies speak for themselves- those that recover would have done so without AA.

Saying "AA has saved their marriages" is regurgitating the false claim that AA does anything at all. People ATTRIBUTE their recovery to AA, but this attribution is based on a false perception.

In short, your friends were sucked into AA's lies.

Read the statistics: the spontaneous recovery rate is the same as AA's so-called "success" rate. This means that those who recover are the very people who WOULD have recovered anyway.

Here's what the AMA has to say on the subject:

http://72.14.203.104...ca&ct=clnk&cd=7

Funny the AMA doesn't have much to say in their literature about AA, except to uniformly criticise the "organisation" as being ineffective. The AMA prefers treatment centres to AA because treatment centres are 200% (4 X) more effective than AA.

Or is the AMA wrong, here, too?

Edited by gsmonks, 11 June 2006 - 06:36 PM.

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#17 Anastashia

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 06:34 PM

Ok GS I've now looked at two of the organizations through links you provided. Don't see anything that indicates people could recover by themselves in either place.
The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

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#18 emsparks

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 06:35 PM

OK I'm a crackpot; I have been called worse... I know where to get help and you, that’s left to your higher power. Higher power? God, self will, or science: take your pick...

Edited by emsparks, 11 June 2006 - 06:50 PM.

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#19 Palisades

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 06:42 PM

~shrug~  I don't see why it's so hard for people who actually want to be free of the effects of alcohol to just refrain from buying the bottle or going to the bar ... but maybe that's because I'm not addicted. AFAIK, people who drink heavily usually have some underlying problem in their lives they're trying to hide from. To me, addressing the underlying problem (or problems) seems more likely to succeed than getting a bunch of such people together as a group to bewail how powerless they are over their condition and tell their sad stories.

Edited by Solar Wind, 11 June 2006 - 06:47 PM.

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#20 emsparks

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 06:45 PM

To clear up something…

AA doesn’t cure anything, you can’t cure alcoholism; all you can do is choose not to drink today.. AA helps people to choose not to drink, today…

Edited by emsparks, 11 June 2006 - 06:46 PM.

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