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Flag Burning still legal

Senate Flag Burning Amendment 2006

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#1 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 10:27 PM

Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13579789/

Well can't say that I'm surprised about this. For those that say burning the flag is "free Speech", answer me this: Since when is Arson a form of "speech"?

I have to give it to the republicans though...come the mid term elections they are going to bring this back up...and every democrat who voted against it is going to feel the heat...no pun intended.

I thought for sure the Dems would have a clean sweep come mid term elections, but they appear to be shooting themselves in the foot. Polls show that a majority of Americans agree that it should be illegal to burn the flag, at least according to MSNBC's polls....Yet they voted against it....

One good thing about it still being legal...Now at least you know who the enemies of America are. When they burn a flag, you know to not turn your back on them and to watch out for them.
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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#2 MuseZack

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 10:39 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Jun 28 2006, 03:27 AM, said:

Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13579789/

Well can't say that I'm surprised about this. For those that say burning the flag is "free Speech", answer me this: Since when is Arson a form of "speech"?


Think of it this way.  The Boy Scouts dispose of tattered old American flags in the proper way...by burning them.  Yet under the proposed law, someone purchasing an American flag and burning it in his backyard because he's angry at the government would be a criminal.  So it's not the act that's illegal, but the intent behind it.  And legislating what's in people's hearts and minds is a very dangerous road to walk down.
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#3 HeroicFool

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 11:08 PM

Agreed 100% Zack..

So when are we gonna dump hate crime legislation?
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#4 Captain Jack

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 11:24 PM

Well, there is a difference in how you burn a flag.  When a flag gets old, tattered, or ruined, there is a certain way to respectfully burn the flag.  And even if there wasn't, there is a big difference between burning a flag due to it's decay, and hatefully burning a flag when you yourself live in that country.
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#5 HeroicFool

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 11:30 PM

Yep, it's a big difference, but imho it's still better to err on the side of freedom...

Freedom also includes the freedom to be a complete ass.
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#6 Captain Jack

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 11:33 PM

Flag Etiquette:

http://www.liddyshow.us/flag.php
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#7 Dev F

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 11:33 PM

View PostMuseZack, on Jun 27 2006, 10:39 PM, said:

Think of it this way.  The Boy Scouts dispose of tattered old American flags in the proper way...by burning them.  Yet under the proposed law, someone purchasing an American flag and burning it in his backyard because he's angry at the government would be a criminal.  So it's not the act that's illegal, but the intent behind it.
Oh, it's more insidious than that, even. Since desecrating the flag is not necessarily a threatening gesture, nor inherently a call to violence, the only reason it's being outlawed is because it makes people feel bad. Thus we aren't just legislating actions based on the doer's intent; we're legislating based on the observer's reaction. And that's an incredibly dangerous precedent to set. Do we really want our most basic freedoms to be subject to the whim of our fellow citizens' approval?

Moreover, I can't think of anything less important in these troubled times than protecting the physical integrity of a ceremonial piece of cloth. And before someone screams that generations of Americans fought and died for that piece of cloth, let me just say, "No, they died for the freedoms that symbol represents, and I'd rather protect those freedoms than fret over the inanimate object that's merely their stand-in."

Edited by Dev F, 27 June 2006 - 11:36 PM.


#8 HeroicFool

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 11:41 PM

I still wouldn't call it just a piece of cloth...

I have a tremendous amount of pride and patriotism wrapped up in that symbol.  Still, I would defend a person's right to burn it.

Now as I said, if only we could convince the democrats that giving stiffer sentences based on perceived hate in a given crime is just as stupid.
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#9 Captain Jack

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 11:42 PM

View PostDev F, on Jun 27 2006, 09:33 PM, said:

Moreover, I can't think of anything less important in these troubled times than protecting the physical integrity of a ceremonial piece of cloth. And before someone screams that generations of Americans fought and died for that piece of cloth, let me just say, "No, they died for the freedoms that symbol represents, and I'd rather protect those freedoms than fret over the inanimate object that's merely their stand-in."

The flag stand for those freedoms, which makes it just as important.  It is the symbol of the United States of America, and is SACRED.  It is not a mere cemonial poece of cloth.  The red strips represents the blood that has been spilled for freedom, for freedom doesn't come free.  The white stripes represent peace, and the blue represents unity, with each state represented  by a white star.  It's much more than some piece of cloth, and deserves protection, and respect.
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#10 Banapis

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 11:42 PM

I really don't understand the mentality that wants to give more and more power to the government to control expression.

What's worse:
1.) Destroying a Flag, or
2.) Curtailing the freedoms the Flag symbolizes?

Obviously, burning a flag is enormously unpopular.  It usually backfires on the protester as it immediately turns off most people to whatever message the protester is trying to promote.  It's really a shoot oneself in the foot stunt.

I have no interest in burning a flag and have no problem expressing my disapproval of those who do.  That's my opinion and my feelings on the matter.  But I have even less tolerance of people who think a government should be able to legislate and define the "proper" methods of protesting a government or its policies.

Now that is the greatest insult to the Flag and every man or woman who has given the ultimate sacrifice for the principles and country that flag represents.

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#11 Captain Jack

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 11:50 PM

I think the government needs to leave this alone.  I don't know if you folks noticed how much the Bush Administration has been imposing on the freedoms of the American people in the name of "War on Terror" or "National Security".  Listening in on phone conversations, requesting emails, spying on bank wire transfers, phone records, etc.  Is this America, or USSR???
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#12 HeroicFool

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 11:55 PM

Each of those things are not as bad as you think Spidey.

They are made to seem worse by a hateful media, but the whole story is much more benign than they would have you believe.

Banapis, well said.  Flag burning enrages me in a way I can't properly express, but still it's not right to make yet more laws to further restrict us as Americans.  We already feel the pinch as it is...

The seatbelt law for example...   What I'd like to do with that piece of...
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#13 Dev F

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:04 AM

View PostSpidey, on Jun 27 2006, 11:42 PM, said:

The flag stand for those freedoms, which makes it just as important.
Please explain to me how something that merely stands for freedom can possibly be as important as freedom itself. That's like saying a man's love for his wife is no more important than the ring he buys her, or that a crucifix deserves as much Christian adulation as Christ Himself.

It's just a symbol. It's not anywhere near as important as the thing being symbolized.

#14 Godeskian

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:07 AM

Put me down heavily on the side of allowing it, as an essential part of a truly free society.

Of course, unlike some of the posters here, I don't have a patriotic bone in my body, so the appeals to the symbol are entirely lost on me.

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#15 Captain Jack

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:15 AM

View PostDev F, on Jun 27 2006, 10:04 PM, said:

View PostSpidey, on Jun 27 2006, 11:42 PM, said:

The flag stand for those freedoms, which makes it just as important.
Please explain to me how something that merely stands for freedom can possibly be as important as freedom itself. That's like saying a man's love for his wife is no more important than the ring he buys her, or that a crucifix deserves as much Christian adulation as Christ Himself.

It's just a symbol. It's not anywhere near as important as the thing being symbolized.

I disagree entirely.  And I'm with HF, flag burning enrages me to no end.

Dev F, what comes to mind, emotionally when you see a Swastika, or a hammer an sickle?  A uniform of the KKK?  

The Flag is an important part of society, and just isn't any less important than Freedom itself because wherever that Flag is, so is freedom.  It's this lack of understanding that is screwing up this country.
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#16 G1223

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:19 AM

I do not like the idea of a law banning the flag being burned. I do not want the constitution edited to do this.

I will also say if a person burns a flag in my presence in a disrespectful manner I will arrest for assualt and possibly attempted murder. I have family that have faced the risk of giving their lives to portect this country.  That flag represents this nation.

The Boy Scouts do not burn in disrespect Zack they do it when a person has brought them a torn or faded flag or can no longer care for it. Just like the animal control people do for a pet which is being put down. While some of the flag burners hit me as the guys who set small dogs or cats on fire for a thrill. So excuse me for not really liking them.

Edited by G1223, 28 June 2006 - 12:19 AM.

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#17 Captain Jack

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:21 AM

View PostG1223, on Jun 27 2006, 10:19 PM, said:

I do not like the idea of a law banning the flag being burned. I do not want the constitution edited to do this.

I will also say if a person burns a flag in my presence in a disrespectful manner I will arrest for assualt and possibly attempted murder. I have family that have faced the risk of giving their lives to portect this country.  That flag represents this nation.

The Boy Scouts do not burn in disrespect Zack they do it when a person has brought them a torn or faded flag or can no longer care for it. Just like the animal control people do for a pet which is being put down. While some of the flag burners hit me as the guys who set small dogs or cats on fire for a thrill. So excuse me for not really liking them.

That's right, G.  I'll probably be arrested too, for beating the crap out of a hateful flag burner.  I just hope I never see one.
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#18 Godeskian

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:23 AM

View PostSpidey, on Jun 28 2006, 06:15 AM, said:

Dev F, what comes to mind, emotionally when you see a Swastika, or a hammer an sickle?  A uniform of the KKK?

Not Dev, but I'll answer nonetheless. Emotionally, very little comes to mind with those symbols, because they could have been anything. Would the behaviour of Nazi Germany have been mitigated if they'd used a happy bunny as their symbol du jour rather than corrupting a pagan symbol? No, of course not, because at the end of the day, it is the actions that matter, not the symbolism that's attached to them.

Someone who lynches a black person because he's black, but isn't wearing a piece of bedlinnen is just as much a racist as someone who runs around in KKK atire.

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The Flag is an important part of society,

You see, I disagree. A flag is at the end of the day nothing substantial, a convenient symbol that could have been any design, any image and still had the same effect because the image itself isn't as important as the ideals behind it.

A flag is a piece of cloth, cut and coloured in a specific shape to create an emotional response, it has no innate value or power.

Edited by Godeskian, 28 June 2006 - 12:26 AM.

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#19 G1223

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:26 AM

Ask the men who died for it and say to them it has no innate value. I got a feeling they would explain that value to you.
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#20 Godeskian

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:27 AM

View PostG1223, on Jun 28 2006, 06:26 AM, said:

Ask the men who died for it and say to them it has no innate value. I got a feeling they would explain that value to you.

Show me a man who died for a piece of cloth rather than for the ideals that cloth represented. It may surprise you to know that I know more than a few people in several different militaries, and most of them can distinguish between the ideal they signed up to protect, and the symbol that represents it.

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