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Flag Burning still legal

Senate Flag Burning Amendment 2006

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#21 Godeskian

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:29 AM

View PostSpidey, on Jun 28 2006, 06:21 AM, said:

That's right, G.  I'll probably be arrested too, for beating the crap out of a hateful flag burner.  I just hope I never see one.

I find it very interesting that you automatically assume the flagburners are hatefull people. I also find it interesting that you and G both profess a willingness and even an eagerness to inflict bodily harm on such people.

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#22 G1223

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:36 AM

And you assume they are good kindly people. You want to believe burning my flag is a good thing? That it is going to open a dialog?

When you go to the extent to burning a flag you have ended any dialog. The former countrymen who would do such a thing are neither worthy of the state's protection nor praise.

What you are wanting is to piss people off and avoid getting hit for doing it.  That happens sometimes and other times the burner gets the beating they earned.
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#23 Captain Jack

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:38 AM

View PostG1223, on Jun 27 2006, 10:26 PM, said:

Ask the men who died for it and say to them it has no innate value. I got a feeling they would explain that value to you.

Agreed.  And ask anyone who has had a military funeral.  When I was given the flag that was on my fathers caskett, it was essentially the most important thing in the world to me.  He was in Vietnam three times, and played a large role in the Cuban missile crisis.  Both my grandparents fought in WWII, and even to them, that flag means a whole lot of things.  It isn't just a piece of cloth with pretty colors and patterns on it.

I find it a complete tragedy that anyone, reguardless of what country they may be in, not have any emotional bond to their flag.  The flag is a physical embodiment of a nation.  People should take pride in it.

A world without such emotion would mean, well, I'd rather not say, as it may earn me a warning...
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#24 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:41 AM

View PostHeroicFool, on Jun 28 2006, 12:55 AM, said:

The seatbelt law for example...   What I'd like to do with that piece of...

Couldn't agree more. Especially since if one is a large person those seatbelts feel like they are strangling you. I don't wear the seatbelt in my trans-am...it doesn't fit. If the car makers want me to wear it, make one that'll fit larger people.
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#25 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:46 AM

Actually the amendment they tried to pass wouldn't have banned burning the flag. It would've made it a crime, meaning that a person could be arrested for burning it. Which, IMO, they should be, since Arson was a crime last time I checked.

All this amendment would've done was to put consequences on flag burning.

Free speech is free, yes. But it does have consequences. It's not consequence free. You have every single right in the world to walk up, give your boss a piece of your mind and tell him, or her, off. BUT, don't be surprised when the boss says: "You're fired!"
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#26 Godeskian

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:49 AM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Jun 28 2006, 06:46 AM, said:

Actually the amendment they tried to pass wouldn't have banned burning the flag. It would've made it a crime, meaning that a person could be arrested for burning it. Which, IMO, they should be, since Arson was a crime last time I checked.

Point of clarification, isn't it only Arson if it's someone elses property? If someone buys a flag at their local wallmart and then takes it home and burns it, they are only destroying their own private property.

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#27 G1223

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:50 AM

Oh but LotS that is exactly what people who are burning the flag want. They want to offend you and keep you from doing anything in response. They think their act is worthy of praise. Yet they seem unable to figure out that it earns nothing but anger and contempt.
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#28 Godeskian

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:52 AM

View PostG1223, on Jun 28 2006, 06:36 AM, said:

And you assume they are good kindly people. You want to believe burning my flag is a good thing? That it is going to open a dialog?

Actually, I don't assign any moral value to the act for good or bad. I don't assume that people burning their countries flags are good, but I also don't assume they are hateful.

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When you go to the extent to burning a flag you have ended any dialog. The former countrymen who would do such a thing are neither worthy of the state's protection nor praise.

So, a quick tearing up of their citizenships papers followed by a quick deportion to some third world hellhole?

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What you are wanting is to piss people off and avoid getting hit for doing it.  That happens sometimes and other times the burner gets the beating they earned.

That they earned? interesting statement.

Edited by Godeskian, 28 June 2006 - 12:52 AM.

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#29 Godeskian

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:59 AM

View PostSpidey, on Jun 28 2006, 06:38 AM, said:

When I was given the flag that was on my fathers caskett, it was essentially the most important thing in the world to me.  He was in Vietnam three times, and played a large role in the Cuban missile crisis.  Both my grandparents fought in WWII, and even to them, that flag means a whole lot of things.  It isn't just a piece of cloth with pretty colors and patterns on it.

Fair enough.

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I find it a complete tragedy that anyone, reguardless of what country they may be in, not have any emotional bond to their flag.  The flag is a physical embodiment of a nation.  People should take pride in it.

You aren't the first to profess the tragic nature of my lack of patriotism, probably won't be the last either.

But let me ask you something Spidey, why should I owe any allegiance, or assign emotional value to a nations flag? and for that matter, to which flag should I owe my allegiance.

The Dutch one because that's the flag I was born under? A trifling coincidence. If my father had received one of the other two job offers he was going for I would have been born in Saudi-Arabia or the US respectively. I had no choice in the place of my birth and refuse to feel pridefull or automatically loyal to anything for mere coincidence.

England because i'm living there now? That was an economic choice, not done because I have any great love for the UK or it's goverment. It just happened to be the place where I could get a job?

Canada or the US, which I am in the process to moving to one off? Hardly, again I'm facilitating that move for economic and personal reasons, and the fact that Vancouver and Los Angeles are in Canada and the US are coincidences and nothing more. .

So which nation should I be patriotic to? and a far more important question, is why I should in the first place. What has the UK done for me that should make me loyal? I pay for my rights and privelidges with my taxes, and beyond that, the UK goverment has given me nothing but grief for years now. Should I be proud of the nation for that?

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A world without such emotion would mean, well, I'd rather not say, as it may earn me a warning...

Patriotism worries me, almost as much as nationalism does.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#30 G1223

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 01:01 AM

What are they then if not being hateful?  They are not wanting a dialog. They want to rant and scream and only have their side of their message heard and be dammed anyone who disagrees.  

That is what I learned from the left that it's Ok to pick a fight as long as the other side is muzzed and tied down.

Basically I have ancestors that suffered greatly to free men held in bondage in the south. They got the Andersonville Diet.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

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#31 Godeskian

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 01:09 AM

View PostG1223, on Jun 28 2006, 07:01 AM, said:

What are they then if not being hateful?

Maybe they are simply doing it as a form of social protest. You seem to want to see hatred, and that confounds me to be honest.

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They are not wanting a dialog. They want to rant and scream and only have their side of their message heard and be dammed anyone who disagrees.

A very emotionally evocative statement G, but that's just opinion at the end of the day. Where's the evidence

by the by, I will ignore any attempts to make this a left versus right debate. This isn't about poilitical affiliation so much as it is about basic freedom.

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Basically I have ancestors that suffered greatly to free men held in bondage in the south. They got the Andersonville Diet.

You're going to have to clarify, as I have no particular clue what the Andersonville diet is supposed to be.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#32 G1223

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 01:19 AM

Yes the freedom to piss on my country and my government and not telling me I cannot do anything to prevent it.  As I said I will take being arrested for doing what I think is right.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#33 Godeskian

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 01:22 AM

View PostG1223, on Jun 28 2006, 07:19 AM, said:

Yes the freedom to piss on my country and my government and not telling me I cannot do anything to prevent it.  As I said I will take being arrested for doing what I think is right.

You continue to choose to see things in the worst possible light, and I feel that's something of an unfair generalisation. However given the opinions you've professed, your willingness to threaten physical harm to people in a casual and even gleeful manner, I very much doubt you'll stop doing that.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#34 Dev F

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 01:23 AM

View PostSpidey, on Jun 28 2006, 12:15 AM, said:

Dev F, what comes to mind, emotionally when you see a Swastika, or a hammer an sickle?  A uniform of the KKK?
I fail to see how this is relevant to the discussion. Of course, symbols of hate and oppression sicken me. But it's not because they have some inherent power to sicken; it's because of the things they represent.

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The Flag is an important part of society, and just isn't any less important than Freedom itself because wherever that Flag is, so is freedom.
No. That's specious. The flag isn't some mystical relic that confers freedom wherever it goes. Like any symbol, it can be divorced from the thing it represents, and in doing so cease to have meaning.

Suppose North Korea started to fly our flag, and forced its citizens to march around it, and saluted it as the symbol of its own government. It wouldn't then stand for freedom; it'd stand for the oppression and cruelty of the North Korean state.

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It's this lack of understanding that is screwing up this country.
I'd argue precisely the opposite -- what's screwing up this country is the arrogant and thoughtless assumption that freedom is something that exists in this nation by default and inheres to every symbol and action of our government, rather than a vital ideal that is greater than us or our symbols or our pseudo-patriotic babble.

Unless we admit to ourselves that freedom is something our nation doesn't necessarily stand for -- that liberty is something that can be lost or traded away through foolish or immoral action -- we won't maintain the vigilance and self-knowledge we need to ensure that doesn't happen.

#35 Captain Jack

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 01:26 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Jun 27 2006, 10:59 PM, said:

You aren't the first to profess the tragic nature of my lack of patriotism, probably won't be the last either.

I hope you were not offended, though. I don't want to hurt your feelings at all.

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But let me ask you something Spidey, why should I owe any allegiance, or assign emotional value to a nations flag? and for that matter, to which flag should I owe my allegiance.

The Dutch one because that's the flag I was born under? A trifling coincidence. If my father had received one of the other two job offers he was going for I would have been born in Saudi-Arabia or the US respectively. I had no choice in the place of my birth and refuse to feel pridefull or automatically loyal to anything for mere coincidence.

England because i'm living there now? That was an economic choice, not done because I have any great love for the UK or it's goverment. It just happened to be the place where I could get a job?

I can see why you feel the way you do.  For me, My family and I were born and raised here.  And friends who have come from less fortunate countries, or had harder times, that I know are proud to be here, and love the flag.  But for you, perhaps you haven't experienced the same as others.  You don't consider where you are "home".  You think of it as more of you had little other choice.  I can see why you would not feel any loyalty, even where you were born, since you probably know little or nothing about it, or memory of being there.

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Canada or the US, which I am in the process to moving to one off? Hardly, again I'm facilitating that move for economic and personal reasons, and the fact that Vancouver and Los Angeles are in Canada and the US are coincidences and nothing more. .

I hope you do come here-US or Canada.  Selfish reasone though, I must admit.  Maybe we can hang out again.  :)

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So which nation should I be patriotic to? and a far more important question, is why I should in the first place. What has the UK done for me that should make me loyal? I pay for my rights and privelidges with my taxes, and beyond that, the UK goverment has given me nothing but grief for years now. Should I be proud of the nation for that?

Good questions.  Patriotism is being proud of the nation you are in.  Glad to be Canadian, or American, etc.  Where you are happy to be in a place that gives you a chance at happiness, and freedom to persue your dreams and desires.  It is something that is probably better explained when it is actually felt, than told.  The US does not guarantee anything, and there will be some hardship, but at least there is a shot.  I've seen poor people come with little or nothing, and now they have a house, cars, and are living happy.

No country will EVER do anything for you.  But, it's nice to be in a country where you are able to make something of yourself, even if it may be difficult.  Choose carefully.

Patriotism isn't about what a nation does for you anyway.  It's being glad you are in that nation for whatever personal reason you may have, like the one's I've listed (wealth, safety, happiness, success, freedom, etc.).

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Patriotism worries me, almost as much as nationalism does.

Patriotism doesn't worry me.  It's BLIND patriotism that worries me, and Nationalism.

Edited by Spidey, 28 June 2006 - 01:27 AM.

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#36 Godeskian

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 01:34 AM

View PostSpidey, on Jun 28 2006, 07:26 AM, said:

I hope you were not offended, though. I don't want to hurt your feelings at all.

Nah, I am a strong believer in that a person has to choose to be offended. We're cool. :)

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You don't consider where you are "home".

Home isn't a place for me, it's people.

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I can see why you would not feel any loyalty, even where you were born, since you probably know little or nothing about it, or memory of being there.

Uh, I spent the first 21 years of my life in the country I was born. I have pretty strong memories of most of it. :p

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I hope you do come here-US or Canada.  Selfish reasone though, I must admit.  Maybe we can hang out again.  :)

Definitely a fringe benefit

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Patriotism is being proud of the nation you are in.


Doesn't that imply that the nation has either done something for you personally, or that it has done something on a global scale that you can be proud of?

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It is something that is probably better explained when it is actually felt, than told.

Of this I have no doubt.

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Patriotism doesn't worry me.  It's BLIND patriotism that worries me, and Nationalism.

You see a difference between patriotism and blind patriotism. I see them as two points along the same curve.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#37 Captain Jack

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 01:44 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Jun 27 2006, 11:34 PM, said:

View PostSpidey, on Jun 28 2006, 07:26 AM, said:

I hope you were not offended, though. I don't want to hurt your feelings at all.

Nah, I am a strong believer in that a person has to choose to be offended. We're cool. :)

Good, 'cause I am proud to call you friend. :cool:

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You don't consider where you are "home".

Home isn't a place for me, it's people.

Hmmm, okay.  :)

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I can see why you would not feel any loyalty, even where you were born, since you probably know little or nothing about it, or memory of being there.

Uh, I spent the first 21 years of my life in the country I was born. I have pretty strong memories of most of it. :p

I didn't know that.  My bad.  Well, then I guess it just doesn't work for you somehow.  The country you were born in, that is.

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I hope you do come here-US or Canada.  Selfish reasone though, I must admit.  Maybe we can hang out again.  :)

Definitely a fringe benefit

Heck ya!  :D :cool:

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Patriotism is being proud of the nation you are in.


Doesn't that imply that the nation has either done something for you personally, or that it has done something on a global scale that you can be proud of?

Nope.  For me, I am proud to be an American (even though the rest of the world practically hates us) is that I have a chance to persue whatever makes me happy in life (as long as it's legal), and the freedom my country gives me.  I'm not hungry.  I have a roof over my head.  I don't have to worry about Nevada invading California, or whatnot.  I'm not descriminated against.  I can get an education.  If I can't afford an education, I can get a government loan or grant to pay for it.  If I am disabled, I can get disability pay, unemployment pay, etc.  It isn't perfect, but I'm happy.  I can go to wherever I want, when I want, how I want.

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It is something that is probably better explained when it is actually felt, than told.

Of this I have no doubt.

I hope you get to experience it.

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Patriotism doesn't worry me.  It's BLIND patriotism that worries me, and Nationalism.

You see a difference between patriotism and blind patriotism. I see them as two points along the same curve.

Heh, well, I don't.  More like a very easy detour can be made in a very bad direction if one isn't careful.  :)

///Gode.

Edited by Spidey, 28 June 2006 - 01:49 AM.

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#38 Robert Hewitt Wolfe

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 02:03 AM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Jun 27 2006, 08:27 PM, said:

I have to give it to the republicans though...come the mid term elections they are going to bring this back up...and every democrat who voted against it is going to feel the heat...no pun intended.

Works both ways.  John McCain just lost my vote if he ever runs for President.  I seriously would've considered voting for him, but lately he's done enough stupid crap to enter Yellow Dog country.  (Sorry, Rov.)

I've said it before and I'll say it again... GET YOUR GRUBBY HANDS OFF MY CONSTITUTION!

The Flag is great.  I love the Flag, but...

Individual Liberty > Document Ensuring Individual Liberty > Symbol of Same

Seriously, Republican Politicos?  Go read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" again.   What the hell is wrong with you people?*






*You People = Senators who voted for this amendment.  IE no one on this board (as far as I know)

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#39 Captain Jack

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 02:15 AM

It didn't pass by one vote thank goodness.

Edited by Spidey, 28 June 2006 - 02:17 AM.

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#40 Shalamar

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 02:28 AM

Symbols only have what power we give them over us.
The three most important R's
Respect for One's Self / Respect for Others / Responsibility for One's Words & Actions.

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