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Flag Burning still legal

Senate Flag Burning Amendment 2006

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#281 Lin731

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 01:05 PM

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Or by simply sitting there and doing NOTHING at all. That you give value to the burner's hate speech. You condone it to alllow his view to be heard. while the thousands of men and women who died for that flag get treated like crap. If only for that momment.

Ah, I see, in your view it's much better to supress his speech entirely. BTW...you have NO business labeling it as hate speech unless you know what is going through that persons head.

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I had three uncles who served the country they were the children of another who served. My Father served in Korea and his own words about flag burning were." When you burn the flag you do not start a discussion. There is no free speech. There is simply a person trying to pick a fight or a stupid person who wants attention."

So I supose Nam vets (you know with missing arms, legs, PTS etc...were stupid, just trying to pick a fight? BTW....isn't it sad that ANY vet would feel the need to HAVE TO burn a flag to get your attention? Many of us have relatives that served, you and your dad didn't corner the market on opinions on the subject.

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I was raised to stand when the national atheme is sung and sing along if I want but I damm well stand. It is done out of respect and love of country. And the memories of those who have died for me to have any freedom.

And your point is what exactly? I stand at the national anthem too, hand over heart and sing along but I STILL support peoples right to burn the flag in protest. This attitude that one can't love our country and protest against it's policies by burning a flag simply doesn't wash.

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The value of a flag burner to me is less than I would give most other human beings. Their message is not important even if it's a message I might agree with otherwise.


So all those vets that have burned a flag in protest are "less" in value to you than someone that waves the flag while never having sacrificed anything for their country?

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Why Because I had a Grandfather who had a foot nearly taken off by a shell fragment and had to walk with a cane the last 40 years of his life. One of his sons earned the Navy Cross by flying his plane and stopping an attack of Japanese planes from sinking his carrier in 1944. One of my cousins has never fully recovered from his experince in Vietnam but damm if he would ever put up with a flag burning.

Do you think you and yours have cornered the market on sacrifice? You haven't ya know? Many of us have lost family members throughout this nations history. From the countries inception to the present day, we've lost relatives or seen them maimed or emotionally damaged by war.

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So to me that flag you so rightously feel is unimportant means a great deal to me. Some of that blood while not mine personally is blood my family gave to this country and I'd like it very much if you did not piss on it.

As well as blood from MY family and Nonny's and millions of other American families and I'd like very much if you didn't piss on the principles represented by the flag, like freedom of speech.
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#282 Kosh

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 01:16 PM

View PostMuseZack, on Jun 27 2006, 11:39 PM, said:

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Jun 28 2006, 03:27 AM, said:

Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13579789/

Well can't say that I'm surprised about this. For those that say burning the flag is "free Speech", answer me this: Since when is Arson a form of "speech"?


Think of it this way.  The Boy Scouts dispose of tattered old American flags in the proper way...by burning them.  Yet under the proposed law, someone purchasing an American flag and burning it in his backyard because he's angry at the government would be a criminal.  So it's not the act that's illegal, but the intent behind it.  And legislating what's in people's hearts and minds is a very dangerous road to walk down.



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#283 SparkyCola

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 02:14 PM

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Or by simply sitting there and doing NOTHING at all. That you give value to the burner's hate speech. You condone it to alllow his view to be heard. while the thousands of men and women who died for that flag get treated like crap.

Anyone who died just for a flag died in vain. It's the ideals behind it- so don't trivialise their death by saying they died for a piece of cloth with a pattern on.

By sitting and doing nothing you value their right to express their own views, and that you do not condone violence.

I'm a Brit. You'd be hard-pressed to find a Brit who didn't have grandparents or relatives who HADN'T fought in a war for Britain- but they did not die for a flag. I wouldn't care if they changed our flag. OR if they decided we shouldn't have one at all, (though administratively that might mess things up a bit). They did not die for the flag- they died for their children and country to be free. Because they had to protect others. They died because they had no choice. Because they were manipulated to and emotionally blackmailed to. Because of Propoganda. Don't come at me with noble men and women who died for the sake of an abstraction. In the words of Shakespeare- "what is honour? a word."

You think I don't understand the meaning of symbols? You think I am being righteous? I have symbols. My faith has symbols. My sentimentality has symbols. Some of them only mean something if you're ME. Others happen to be shared symbols. But I love no body more than God and i would never EVER hurt someone for burning a cross- because I would be defacing Christian values FAR MORE than the person simply burning the symbol would be.

Symbols are not things in their own right- they come from somewhere. Where they come from is more important because as someone has already said THAT IS SOMETHING YOU CANNOT BURN. Freedom and liberty and all the America can rightfully be proud to encourage- no one can burn those things.

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legislating what's in people's hearts and minds is a very dangerous road to walk down. ZACK

Kosh, Zack, right on.
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#284 Nonny

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 02:23 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Jul 3 2006, 12:14 PM, said:

Symbols are not things in their own right- they come from somewhere. Where they come from is more important because as someone has already said THAT IS SOMETHING YOU CANNOT BURN. Freedom and liberty and all the America can rightfully be proud to encourage- no one can burn those things.

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legislating what's in people's hearts and minds is a very dangerous road to walk down. ZACK

Kosh, Zack, right on.
Excellent, all of you!   :happy:  

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#285 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 02:47 PM

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Post #225

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This seems to be another common tack in your arguments -- to announce your personal opinion shrilly, as if your personal beliefs somehow justify the irrational arguments that accompany them.

You are being warned for failing to comply with the cool its that were posted in this thread regarding personalizations and for not being respectful to your fellow posters.  

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9. Repeated refusal to cooperate with the moderators on matters of possible illegal content, inflammatory remarks, or other board guidelines

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1. All members will treat all others with respect.

The staff requested that the members back away from making personalizations about their fellow posters in this thread.  Posts should be about the topic at hand and not taking cracks at your fellow posters posting style.  All posters should address the logic and the issues, rather than their 'opponent' in a debate.  In the future please direct your posts at the argument at hand and not at another poster. If anyone has any questions about this warning please direct any questions to me via PM.  Furthermore Iíll remind everyone once again that action taken by the moderating staff or moderation related concerns should not be addressed in OT.
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#286 Mark

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 05:25 PM

View PostNonny, on Jul 3 2006, 10:23 AM, said:

View PostNonny, on Jul 2 2006, 11:50 AM, said:

View PostMark, on Jun 30 2006, 01:30 PM, said:

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Consider that the next time you bravely, and valiently burn the main symbol of our nation.
Tell me this: when was the first time I bravely and valiantly burnt a flag?  

View PostMark, on Jul 2 2006, 06:27 PM, said:

Nonny:

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Tell me this: when was the first time I bravely and valiantly burnt a flag?

Mark: I never said, or accused you of burning a flag...please! I also wasn't aiming my statement at you, personally...but to flag-burners in general.
Since you were responding to me, and since you made no distinction between 'you' the person to whom you were responding and 'you' all y'all who have actually burnt a flag, and since nobody else participating in this thread has copped to flag burning, actual or potential, it is reasonable to believe that you are confusing me with a flag burner.  It would be easier to wade through this confusion BTW if you would stop clipping the arrow when you quote me so that the context is easily found.  

Nonny

Mark: Since I never mentioned your name, or used a quote from one of your posts in my post, I can't imagine why you'd think what I was saying was addressed to you, specifically. There were posts I did address you specifically, but not the one you apparently took offense to. Post #221
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#287 SparkyCola

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 06:14 PM

gah! The quotes within quotes is making my eyes hurt... :crazy:

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#288 Mark

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 06:49 PM

Mark: I don't usually post that way...but Nonny was insistant on providing the arrow links. Sorry.  :blush:
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#289 SparkyCola

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 07:18 PM

No problem lol :D

When I was trying to work out who said what I got a bit confused, but it is getting pretty late :lol:

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#290 Nonny

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 10:24 AM

View PostMark, on Jul 4 2006, 03:25 PM, said:

View PostNonny, on Jul 3 2006, 10:23 AM, said:

View PostNonny, on Jul 2 2006, 11:50 AM, said:

View PostMark, on Jun 30 2006, 01:30 PM, said:

Quote

Consider that the next time you bravely, and valiently burn the main symbol of our nation.
Tell me this: when was the first time I bravely and valiantly burnt a flag?  

View PostMark, on Jul 2 2006, 06:27 PM, said:

Nonny:

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Tell me this: when was the first time I bravely and valiantly burnt a flag?

Mark: I never said, or accused you of burning a flag...please! I also wasn't aiming my statement at you, personally...but to flag-burners in general.
Since you were responding to me, and since you made no distinction between 'you' the person to whom you were responding and 'you' all y'all who have actually burnt a flag, and since nobody else participating in this thread has copped to flag burning, actual or potential, it is reasonable to believe that you are confusing me with a flag burner.  It would be easier to wade through this confusion BTW if you would stop clipping the arrow when you quote me so that the context is easily found.  

Nonny

Mark: Since I never mentioned your name, or used a quote from one of your posts in my post, I can't imagine why you'd think what I was saying was addressed to you, specifically. There were posts I did address you specifically, but not the one you apparently took offense to. Post #221
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Talk about "circular argument"!   :lol:   That just refers back to the post I responded to in the first place, and I already responded in the post you quoted.  Had you left the arrows in place when you quoted me in the first place, we wouldn't have this confusion.   :rolleyes:  

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#291 Nonny

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 10:29 AM

View PostSparkyCola, on Jul 4 2006, 05:18 PM, said:

When I was trying to work out who said what I got a bit confused, but it is getting pretty late :lol
Sometimes I wonder if it's just carelessness, or perhaps a strategem.  :look:  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#292 Fragsta

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 08:52 PM

A flag is just another object. You can burn books, and even leaves, why not burn a flag? Because of what it represents? Why should people be forced to agree with others?

If someone states their negative views about the government of their country, it can be just the same as burning a flag, except the latter draws more attention. They aren't necessarily saying "I hate this country, and want to kill everybody who is a citizen of this country!"

By all means, be outraged that they would do such a thing, and that they would be so opposed to what the flag represents that they would go to such lengths to show it, but that gives you no right to stop them from actually doing it - it's their opinion.

It does, however, create unneccesary pollution and isn't a pretty sight, and can also cause lung damage, and would be very dangerous to do around asthmatic people. :p~ If there's any reason not to burn flags, there are some good ones. Well, not that good. Flags probably aren't burned enough to have a damaging effect on the environment, and you can always just control the burning and try to keep the smoke away from large groups of people. :p~
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#293 SparkyCola

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 08:08 AM

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It does, however, create unneccesary pollution and isn't a pretty sight, and can also cause lung damage, and would be very dangerous to do around asthmatic people.  If there's any reason not to burn flags, there are some good ones. Well, not that good. Flags probably aren't burned enough to have a damaging effect on the environment, and you can always just control the burning and try to keep the smoke away from large groups of people.

:lol:

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