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I believe homosexuality is a sin

Religion Homosexuality Sin 2006

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#1 Caithness

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:16 AM

I have a hands off policy when it comes to homosexuals; I don't care if they get married and they don't bother me much.  But much like premarital sex, theft, lying, etc., it's a sin according to my faith and I'm allowed to feel that way without being flamed off the board.  I don't have to qualify my statements, either, although I sort of did.  I'm not a bigot or a skinhead or a nazi.  I'm not living in a cave, either, and I'm not trolling by starting this thread.  I just think that it's about time people stopped being persecuted on this board because of their first amendment right to voice a dissenting opinion.
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#2 Broph

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:37 AM

The definition of "bigot" is "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ." It does sound to me that you are intolerant of at least one specific group, but that's just my own opinion. How do you define "bigot", and how do you see your words as not fulfilling that definition - I am asking that question genuinely; I really want to know.

One question. Does your faith say anything about throwing the first stone?

Edited by Broph, 03 July 2006 - 11:39 AM.


#3 Lin731

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:37 AM

Quote

I have a hands off policy when it comes to homosexuals; I don't care if they get married and they don't bother me much. But much like premarital sex, theft, lying, etc., it's a sin according to my faith and I'm allowed to feel that way without being flamed off the board. I don't have to qualify my statements, either, although I sort of did. I'm not a bigot or a skinhead or a nazi. I'm not living in a cave, either, and I'm not trolling by starting this thread. I just think that it's about time people stopped being persecuted on this board because of their first amendment right to voice a dissenting opinion.

Who said ya didn't have the right to feel however you feel? *shrugs* Personally, I think it's about time gays stopped being persecuted by some Christians as well. Go figure eh? There are many "sins" listed in the Bible yet the one I hear so many churches and christians harping on is homosexuality. Why is that?
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#4 G1223

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:39 AM

misread the post

Edited by G1223, 03 July 2006 - 11:41 AM.

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#5 Shalamar

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:41 AM

You certainly have the right to your own opinion. I don't share it, but that's my point of view which I have as much right to as you to yours.

Every one is entitled to their opninions.

It's how they express them that can cause the trouble.
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#6 Nonny

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:42 AM

I don't believe in sin.  Not so long ago, the church I had the great misfortune to be born into would have burnt me at the stake for expressing this.  I'm glad I live in an age where my right to not believe in stuff trumps my former church's mandate to make me.   :)  

I do believe that doing harm to others is wrong.  Rape does harm.  Molestation of a child does harm.  Consensual sex between adults does no harm to anyone.  

I also believe that doing harm to another and then proclaiming that your deity has forgiven you is piling harm upon harm.  Too many religious people ask forgiveness from their deity, but do nothing to make amends with those they have harmed.  

My best friend is gay, as is his boyfriend.  I hope one day to dance at their wedding.  This shouldn't require more than their decision to marry and the miracle of my recovering enough to dance again; neither the state nor the federal government should have the right to stop them.  Their church would support them; nobody else's church should have a say.  

Sure glad I have the right to voice dissent.  Sure hope that support for gay marriage stops being dissent soon.   :)  

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#7 Rhys

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:50 AM

View PostBroph, on Jul 3 2006, 12:37 PM, said:

It does sound to me that you are intolerant of at least one specific group,

How is "I have a hands off policy when it comes to homosexuals; I don't care if they get married and they don't bother me much" intolerant?

Caithness is saying that she has her own firm beliefs, but she's not going to force them on anyone else.  Isn't that more what "tolerance" is all about than forcing everyone to have the same set of beliefs?

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#8 Broph

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:52 AM

A couple of other quick thoughts.

There is no "first amendment right" when it comes to this board. It's a private board and nobody else has a right to just show up and write whatever they want. The owners of this board have all the right to delete anything that they want without stepping on anyone's 1st amendment rights.

Caithness, you say that you think that it's a sin, but you also say that you don't care if they get married. If you think it's a sin, then I guess I don't understand why you wouldn't care if they get married. But if they don't bother you much and you don't care what they do, then why bring it up? I'm not saying that you can't have your own opinion or that you can't voice your own opinion, but why voice your opinion about something you don't care about?

It's just that on one side you say that they don't bother you, which sounds tolerant, but you also say that it's a sin, which sounds intolerant.

#9 Broph

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:55 AM

View PostRhys, on Jul 3 2006, 04:50 PM, said:

View PostBroph, on Jul 3 2006, 12:37 PM, said:

It does sound to me that you are intolerant of at least one specific group,

How is "I have a hands off policy when it comes to homosexuals; I don't care if they get married and they don't bother me much" intolerant?

Caithness is saying that she has her own firm beliefs, but she's not going to force them on anyone else.  Isn't that more what "tolerance" is all about than forcing everyone to have the same set of beliefs?

Rhys

But she brings up the fact that it's a sin. I don't think someone who is being tolerant would bring that up.

You don't have to force everyone to have the same set of beliefs to be tolerant, but speaking about a group of people and their "lifestyle" as a "sin", IMHO, is not being tolerant.

#10 Nonny

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:58 AM

Thirteen members are reading or responding to this topic.  Productive thread!   :)  

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#11 Spectacles

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:58 AM

Sure people have a right to express their views.  :)

It's important to note, however, that not all Christians make a big deal about homosexuality and not all agree that it's a sin. So, there's a difference of opinion even within the faith.

Some Christians genuinely believe that Scripture proclaims homosexuality a sin.  *shrug*

I think they're wrong. *another shrug*

And if you look at what's happening in the Episcopal church (as well as in some other denominations, like Methodists and Presbyterians), you'll see that not all Christians are of like mind on the matter.

My take is that if I don't *have* to condemn a group of people to adhere to a faith, I'd prefer to cast my lot with churches that say I don't have to.

That's why, for a while, I attended a Presbyterian church that blessed gay and lesbian unions and had a number of gay elders. And there are many such Christian churches across the nation.
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#12 Delvo

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 12:07 PM

What are you thinking of as the meaning of the word "homosexuality": sexual attraction to others of the same sex, or action based on such an attraction?

Regardless of what I thought of someone's desire for something, I couldn't understand calling it a sin if (s)he doesn't act on it. For example, what is kleptomania: habitual theft or the desire to steal things? If someone wants to and feels tempted to but doesn't do it, I'd see no sin there. And this works no matter how disgusting or repulsive the desire might be; someone who thinks of what a relief it might be to kill a bunch of people isn't a mass-murderer if (s)he never goes through with it and kills anybody; someone who wants to have sex with children (pedosexual?) hasn't done anything wrong unless and until (s)he commits an actual assault on a child or coerces one into consenting.

But Christianity and Judaism have been known to set a different standard, by which even being tempted is already a sin even though you can't possibly control what you feel or think. For example, some of the commandments refer to mental and psychological issues instead of physical actions: worship no other gods, honor your parents, don't covet. But then the question is: what makes some thoughts/feelings sinful and not others?

#13 Anakam

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 12:13 PM

View PostBroph, on Jul 3 2006, 04:52 PM, said:

Caithness, you say that you think that it's a sin, but you also say that you don't care if they get married. If you think it's a sin, then I guess I don't understand why you wouldn't care if they get married.

*snip*

It's just that on one side you say that they don't bother you, which sounds tolerant, but you also say that it's a sin, which sounds intolerant.

I'm not Caithness, but it's possible to believe that something is a sin and leave it alone.  Whenever I'm fighting with the more conservative aspects of my upbringing, I am of the opinion (and wish very much that more of my faith would share this opinion) that if it really is a sin, it's between, you know, them and God, if they believe in the same God whose Bible says homosexuality is a sin.  There's no need, in my mind, for all these repeated statements about its sinfulness (and I personally don't believe it is).
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#14 Broph

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 12:37 PM

View PostAnakam, on Jul 3 2006, 05:13 PM, said:

View PostBroph, on Jul 3 2006, 04:52 PM, said:

Caithness, you say that you think that it's a sin, but you also say that you don't care if they get married. If you think it's a sin, then I guess I don't understand why you wouldn't care if they get married.

*snip*

It's just that on one side you say that they don't bother you, which sounds tolerant, but you also say that it's a sin, which sounds intolerant.

I'm not Caithness, but it's possible to believe that something is a sin and leave it alone.  Whenever I'm fighting with the more conservative aspects of my upbringing, I am of the opinion (and wish very much that more of my faith would share this opinion) that if it really is a sin, it's between, you know, them and God, if they believe in the same God whose Bible says homosexuality is a sin.  There's no need, in my mind, for all these repeated statements about its sinfulness (and I personally don't believe it is).

See, but that's where my confusion lies. "it's possible to believe that something is a sin and leave it alone." By starting a thread on the subject, is she really leaving it alone? If it doesn't bother her, then why start a thread in the first place on the subject?

Now let me be absolutely clear. In the next section I am not talking about Caithness or her beliefs whatsoever.

There are some people who hide behind their religion as an excuse. They say that they, themselves, aren't against a group of people for being a different color, or following a different god, or being of a different persuasion. They say that their religion is against such people and that their religion tells them that those people are wrong or bad or unclean or whatever.

There is nothing wrong with having faith or believing in your religion. However, there are times when we have to dig a little deeper. We have to question some of the things that we are told. Why are these people wrong or bad or unclean? If the church didn't tell us such a thing, would we still believe it? There are things that our religion teaches us that cannot be seen nor proven. Faith is what allows us to accept them as truth. But we can decide for ourselves if different people really are as we are told.

Is this exclusion of others truly part of the religion? It's up to the individual to either remain with the church and either believe those teachings or not believe them, or maybe to leave the church and find one that's congruent with all their beliefs, rather than those that they may choose not to believe.

#15 Broph

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 12:42 PM

View PostAnakam, on Jul 3 2006, 05:13 PM, said:

I'm not Caithness, but it's possible to believe that something is a sin and leave it alone.  Whenever I'm fighting with the more conservative aspects of my upbringing, I am of the opinion (and wish very much that more of my faith would share this opinion) that if it really is a sin, it's between, you know, them and God, if they believe in the same God whose Bible says homosexuality is a sin.  There's no need, in my mind, for all these repeated statements about its sinfulness (and I personally don't believe it is).

More directly on what you said, isn't there something that says "hate the sin, love the sinner"? If we were to truly avoid everyone who sinned, wouldn't we lead a very solitary life?

I saw a video over the weekend where some news-magazine show interviewed a woman from the church that protests at military funerals. One of the two hosts asked the woman what her sins were, to which she responded "you tried to trick me with that one the last time". Obviously, they were going with the "cast the first stone" bit.

You know, one of the hosts even said that he was a Christian and she said that if they didn't believe what she believed, then they weren't Christian. And she actually believes that what she's doing is right.

#16 Balderdash

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 12:54 PM

This thread isn't even really about homosexuality so the debate about sin and evil and repulsiveness or acting on anything seems bogus.  This poster just wants to be able to say whatever about homosexuals and it be ok.  As a homosexual, I'm a lesbian btw, say whatever you want and sure say it however you want, as long as I get the same right.  Homosexuals are icky and we shouldn't act on our ickyness but y'all heterosexuals feel free to fall in love with whoever you want, no one is going to bother you or take anything from you.  You can live where ever you want and your jobs are safe and god looooooves you!  Yay for you!  Now feel free to discuss me anyway you see fit.  :alien:

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#17 Spectacles

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 12:58 PM

More about a theological perspective that rejects the view that homosexuality is a sin, if anyone is interested:

http://hem.passagen.se/nicb/christ.htm
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#18 Kosh

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 01:10 PM

View PostLin731, on Jul 3 2006, 12:37 PM, said:

Quote

I have a hands off policy when it comes to homosexuals; I don't care if they get married and they don't bother me much. But much like premarital sex, theft, lying, etc., it's a sin according to my faith and I'm allowed to feel that way without being flamed off the board. I don't have to qualify my statements, either, although I sort of did. I'm not a bigot or a skinhead or a nazi. I'm not living in a cave, either, and I'm not trolling by starting this thread. I just think that it's about time people stopped being persecuted on this board because of their first amendment right to voice a dissenting opinion.

Who said ya didn't have the right to feel however you feel? *shrugs* Personally, I think it's about time gays stopped being persecuted by some Christians as well. Go figure eh? There are many "sins" listed in the Bible yet the one I hear so many churches and christians harping on is homosexuality. Why is that?




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#19 Spectacles

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 01:12 PM

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Kosh: The staff said it in AQG.

Said what and where?
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#20 Anakam

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 01:13 PM

Quote

Broph:
See, but that's where my confusion lies. "it's possible to believe that something is a sin and leave it alone." By starting a thread on the subject, is she really leaving it alone? If it doesn't bother her, then why start a thread in the first place on the subject?

In her first post, Caithness said:

Quote

I have a hands off policy when it comes to homosexuals; I don't care if they get married and they don't bother me much.

I wasn't clear enough, but that's what I was referring to; that she feels it's a sin and wants to be able to say so, yet from her post I'm guessing she's not one of the people who goes around saying it's a sin everywhere and wanting to base national policies on it and other behaviors that I desperately wish other Christians would stop.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are different levels of considering it a sin, and one of them is the one where someone says 'it's a sin, but I'm not awfully horrifically bothered by it' or something along those lines.

I suspect I'm still not making a whole lot of sense; I'll try to think about this and come back to it later, unless someone else clarifies it in the meantime. :blush:
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