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God doesn't exist . . .

Religion Atheism God Nonexistent 2006

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#181 Delvo

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 08:46 AM

View Posthannahthewriter, on Jul 11 2006, 08:09 AM, said:

Well, last time God did something because a man asked him to was when Joshua asked him to keep the sun up in the sky. I guess it could happen again.
One standard answer to that for Christians is that he still does give people what they want and ask for sometimes, but he does it in ways that aren't so spectacular and obvious, so that he himself isn't really visible as the one doing it, or he somehow gets you to do it for yourself or uses other people/things in your life to get the result for you.

I once saw a clip of a movie (I don't know what movie, but I'm guessing part of the "Left Behind" series) in which a man was talking to a woman about why he doesn't believe in God. He says all he'd need to believe is just one tiny little miracle, nothing special. He points to a glass on a table in the room and says God knocking the glass off the table would be a perfect example; it seems very little to ask, and wouldn't change the course of the world in any other way, but would be completely convincing to him, so if God were real, he could prove it by pushing the glass off the table and not have any drawbacks to doing it because it was such a small thing to ask. Of course, the glass just sat there unmoved. Their conversation then moved on to slightly different subjects so you could forget the glass for a few minutes. Then, when the guy was leaving, either he bumped the table or his coat brushed against the glass, and the glass fell to the floor.

#182 Mark

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 09:19 AM

View Posthannahthewriter, on Jul 11 2006, 07:09 AM, said:

Well, last time God did something because a man asked him to was when Joshua asked him to keep the sun up in the sky.

Mark:  :angel: Are you sure about that?
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#183 Spectacles

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 10:28 AM

Isn't interesting how God's image changes even in the Bible--or seems to do so to me. In the OT, he has the personality of a warlord, a sometimes petty one at that. He demands loyalty, tests loyalty, encourages the Israelites to smite his enemies, etc. And as proof of his power, he works miracles, manipulates nature--much like the old Greek gods. In fact, there's something Zeus-like about him.

But as the Old Testament progresses as a narrative, God begins to take a back seat. Much is still said ABOUT God, but God is less of an intervening character. Jack Miles writes about this in God: A Biography.

Then in the New Testament, Jesus's repeated message is that "God is love." The God of Jesus seems to be a kinder, gentler God. The tests of Jesus's faith are there, as tests of faith were in the OT, but the onus seems much more on Jesus to deliver himself through his faith and his strength of character.

I've always thought (and I'm sure many will disagree) that Christianity has done Jesus a disservice. So much emphasis has been placed on what I call "the magic act": the miracles and the resurrection. And too little has been placed on what Jesus actually said.

As a result, it seems to me that many people become Christians out of fear of damnation. Christianity then becomes an "in group." We're saved; y'all aren't. That message can be delivered in a loving way, but it's still a focus on us v them.

I think Jesus really wanted to transform humanity by example: the Sermon on the Mount, throwing the money changers out of the temple, violating the sabbath laws to help someone in need, not giving a hoot about what others thought of his associating with sinners, lepers, and outcasts. His message, it seems to me, is that for humanity to grow beyond warlords and "us v them"-think, we have to develop genuine compassion and empathy. We have to learn to put ourselves in others' shoes.

I think that progressive Christians, those who see the Bible as an unfolding of our understanding of God and humanity rather than as the "inerrant" word of God that pins us down to old laws and old ways of viewing God and others, have more leeway to develop that compassion and empathy for those who are "different" or despised that Jesus modelled for us.

But I'll concede that I'm no theologian. :) That's just my personal take.
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#184 veganmom

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 10:37 AM

Hey, gsmonks doesn't exist, and I can prove it.

I'm asking him to appear in front of me. No, I'm demanding it.
I'll even give him a day to get here (so he can drive to an airport, get on a plane, and drive here).
I'll even provide my address.

So....if he chooses not to make the trip, does that prove he doesn't exist????????



And gsmonks, if you don't believe those cute little genets are a gift from God, then you'll NEVER believe!!    :cool:

#185 Bobby

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 11:15 AM

View Postveganmom, on Jul 11 2006, 10:37 AM, said:

Hey, gsmonks doesn't exist, and I can prove it.

I'm asking him to appear in front of me. No, I'm demanding it.
I'll even give him a day to get here (so he can drive to an airport, get on a plane, and drive here).
I'll even provide my address.

So....if he chooses not to make the trip, does that prove he doesn't exist????????



And gsmonks, if you don't believe those cute little genets are a gift from God, then you'll NEVER believe!!    :cool:


What if he chose to give you a phone call instead?

#186 SparkyCola

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 11:18 AM

Quote

Hmm, I read your post, then went back and read mine again, then read yours a second time, and then spent about ten minutes wishing I had put more thought and effort into mine. For what it's worth, I didn't intend to come off quite as snotty as I ended up doing, sorry.


:hugs: Sorry if I appeared touchy as well :hugs:

Quote

I've always thought (and I'm sure many will disagree) that Christianity has done Jesus a disservice. So much emphasis has been placed on what I call "the magic act": the miracles and the resurrection. And too little has been placed on what Jesus actually said.

I agree!

Quote

If the definition of a miracle is that a supernatural being interferes with things to produce different results from what would have happened without interference, then that would mean every miracle has to break some law(s) of science. If scientific laws are followed, then there's no divine interference, so there's no miracle.

As QT pointed out before me...that's not logical. 'Elin Interference' can be me changing the course of history through doing something which perfectly follows the laws of time- and indeed will have to- but that doesn't mean that i interfered any less, now does it? I don't know what kind of interference you refer to - I'm talking about God interfering with the natural progression of life. QT gave a very good example.

Quote

the idea that they might not describe exactly what really happened is not an assumption on our part

The idea that stories passed down usually have some basis in truth (Robin Hood, King Arthur etc.) is known. The assumption that I am taking this particular story as 100% scientifically accurate is yours. As is your assumption that it is 100% inaccurate, apparently.

Quote

What did he say that would be a lie? Are you referring to his authorship of the whole book in which the story is told?

Look back at my post- I meant in saying that God was responsible for the things which he knew he himself had worked out scientifically, in that particular example. (I know  :rolleyes:  I'm not very good at explaining things!)

Quote

But a scientific explanation for an event is proof of lack of divine interference in that event.

...nope. See above ^

Quote

Hey, gsmonks doesn't exist, and I can prove it.

I'm asking him to appear in front of me. No, I'm demanding it.
I'll even give him a day to get here (so he can drive to an airport, get on a plane, and drive here).
I'll even provide my address.

So....if he chooses not to make the trip, does that prove he doesn't exist????????

Nice parody veganmom ;)

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#187 Bobby

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 11:21 AM

View PostSpectacles, on Jul 11 2006, 10:28 AM, said:

Isn't interesting how God's image changes even in the Bible--or seems to do so to me. In the OT, he has the personality of a warlord, a sometimes petty one at that. He demands loyalty, tests loyalty, encourages the Israelites to smite his enemies, etc. And as proof of his power, he works miracles, manipulates nature--much like the old Greek gods. In fact, there's something Zeus-like about him.

But as the Old Testament progresses as a narrative, God begins to take a back seat. Much is still said ABOUT God, but God is less of an intervening character. Jack Miles writes about this in God: A Biography.

Then in the New Testament, Jesus's repeated message is that "God is love." The God of Jesus seems to be a kinder, gentler God. The tests of Jesus's faith are there, as tests of faith were in the OT, but the onus seems much more on Jesus to deliver himself through his faith and his strength of character.

I've always thought (and I'm sure many will disagree) that Christianity has done Jesus a disservice. So much emphasis has been placed on what I call "the magic act": the miracles and the resurrection. And too little has been placed on what Jesus actually said.

As a result, it seems to me that many people become Christians out of fear of damnation. Christianity then becomes an "in group." We're saved; y'all aren't. That message can be delivered in a loving way, but it's still a focus on us v them.

I think Jesus really wanted to transform humanity by example: the Sermon on the Mount, throwing the money changers out of the temple, violating the sabbath laws to help someone in need, not giving a hoot about what others thought of his associating with sinners, lepers, and outcasts. His message, it seems to me, is that for humanity to grow beyond warlords and "us v them"-think, we have to develop genuine compassion and empathy. We have to learn to put ourselves in others' shoes.

I think that progressive Christians, those who see the Bible as an unfolding of our understanding of God and humanity rather than as the "inerrant" word of God that pins us down to old laws and old ways of viewing God and others, have more leeway to develop that compassion and empathy for those who are "different" or despised that Jesus modelled for us.

But I'll concede that I'm no theologian. :) That's just my personal take.

I agree with the us versus them point.  I've heard plenty of people say they feel like they aren't welcome in church.  A lot of churches are little more than clubhouses.  Not all of them but take a black person into some of the Southern Baptist churches and see what reactions you get.  God isn't in the building anyway, he's in the heart of the believer if he exists at all.

#188 gsmonks

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 12:22 PM

View Postveganmom, on Jul 11 2006, 09:37 AM, said:

Hey, gsmonks doesn't exist, and I can prove it.

I'm asking him to appear in front of me. No, I'm demanding it.
I'll even give him a day to get here (so he can drive to an airport, get on a plane, and drive here).
I'll even provide my address.

So....if he chooses not to make the trip, does that prove he doesn't exist????????



And gsmonks, if you don't believe those cute little genets are a gift from God, then you'll NEVER believe!!    :cool:

Heh. You would pick a day when I'm supposed to be out of town.

We have a major thunder/rain storm last night so we have to wait for the ground to dry.

Why on earth would you want me to appear before you?

You're not hitting on me, are you?  :blink:

Heh. Just kidding. :angel:
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#189 veganmom

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 02:15 PM

View Postgsmonks, on Jul 11 2006, 05:22 PM, said:

Heh. You would pick a day when I'm supposed to be out of town.

We have a major thunder/rain storm last night so we have to wait for the ground to dry.

Why on earth would you want me to appear before you?

You're not hitting on me, are you?  :blink:

Heh. Just kidding. :angel:

Hey! Maybe you picked a day when God was out of mangoes!   :D

Hitting on you...well....you are one of those gorgeous manly hunks of construction workers now....and you DO have those genets......loves animals.....Hmmmmmmm......
:inlove:

#190 veganmom

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 02:21 PM

ooooohhhh but what if, in the throes of passion, you screamed, "Oh God! Oh God!" and I get turned into a mango???????

see? I'm keeping the thread on topic...

#191 gsmonks

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 03:29 PM

I used to say, "Women! Ya can't kill 'em and ya can't eat 'em!"

Turning into a mango would definitely prove me wrong. ;)
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#192 veganmom

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 03:32 PM

And there are guys who I'm sure prefer mangoes to women.
Mangoes are always sweet, easy to "undress," don't talk back.....and are still sensually gratifying!

#193 gsmonks

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 03:48 PM

View Postveganmom, on Jul 11 2006, 02:32 PM, said:

And there are guys who I'm sure prefer mangoes to women.
Mangoes are always sweet, easy to "undress," don't talk back.....and are still sensually gratifying!

True . . .
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