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Tobacco May Kill 1 Billion This Century

Smoking Tobacco Deaths 2006

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#41 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 02:57 PM

View PostSpidey, on Jul 11 2006, 03:53 PM, said:

Car exaust doesn't cause cancer, or emphazima like a cigarette would.

I suppose you have statistics proving this?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#42 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 02:58 PM

View PostSpidey, on Jul 11 2006, 03:47 PM, said:

I have to get past the poison gas just to go in or out.

Hate to be the one to tell you, but the air is already poisoned. It's poisoned by car exhaust, factories, and little things like that. Unless you think the smell of car exhaust and factory pollution is actually GOOD. So the air is already posioned, whether or not you pass a smoker.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#43 Bobby

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 03:06 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Jul 11 2006, 02:58 PM, said:

View PostSpidey, on Jul 11 2006, 03:47 PM, said:

I have to get past the poison gas just to go in or out.

Hate to be the one to tell you, but the air is already poisoned. It's poisoned by car exhaust, factories, and little things like that. Unless you think the smell of car exhaust and factory pollution is actually GOOD. So the air is already posioned, whether or not you pass a smoker.


I don't know, gas stinks just as bad as any cigarette.  The difference is that all of those chemicals are out there wafting through the air.  I don't mind cigarette smoke myself but even I gag from it when it's too concentrated.  The point is, it's your vice, and others shouldn't have to have it in their face.  Some people do try to act like they have better sniffers than dogs and act like they can smell smoke when they damn well can't.  I've been around people like that before.  

And fast food restaurants have drive through windows so those fumes do come right on inside.

Edited by Caesar of the Stars, 11 July 2006 - 03:07 PM.


#44 Captain Jack

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 03:08 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Jul 11 2006, 12:58 PM, said:

View PostSpidey, on Jul 11 2006, 03:47 PM, said:

I have to get past the poison gas just to go in or out.

Hate to be the one to tell you, but the air is already poisoned. It's poisoned by car exhaust, factories, and little things like that. Unless you think the smell of car exhaust and factory pollution is actually GOOD. So the air is already posioned, whether or not you pass a smoker.

So why make it worse?  Gee, how thoughtful you are to other people LotS.  Just puff away and gass us some more.

Car emissions aren't squeaky clean, and I'm sorry I gave that impression.  My point was it isn't nearly as that of what comes out from the end of a cigarette from three feet away.  Here's a link:

http://www.yourdisea...;page=risk_list

I wouldn't want to get sick, and I wouldn't want you to get sick.  But if that is your choice, don't take me out with you.

I am really big on hydrogen cars since the only thing that comes out of the tailpipe is water vapor.
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#45 BklnScott

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 03:23 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Jul 11 2006, 03:35 PM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on Jul 11 2006, 03:26 PM, said:


Does your right to do your drug outweigh his right to NOT do your drug (via exposure to your smoke)?  This is a no brainer, LoTS.

Ah, so it's about clean air then? Alright. Does a person's right to clean air outweigh a motorists right to drive his car? Or the factories right to pollute the air with their byproducts?

It's amazing how the anti-smoking crowd wants to avoid those issues and focus solely on smokers.

No, it's NOT about clean air, LoTS (though Jid's point is well-taken: no one pipes car exhaust directly into enclosed spaces, like restaurants or elevators).  

It is as you said at the top--It's about rights, specifically about weighing your right to do your drug of choice against someone else's right NOT to do your drug of choice via exposure to the smoke.

I think New York State draws that line in a very sensible way: if you're outside, you take your chances.  You might end up walking behind someone smoking on the sidewalk, but you shouldn't have to share an enclosed space (like an elevator, or an airplane, or a restaurant) with lit cigarettes.

Edited by ScottEVill, 11 July 2006 - 03:24 PM.

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#46 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 03:51 PM

View PostSpidey, on Jul 11 2006, 04:08 PM, said:

Car emissions aren't squeaky clean, and I'm sorry I gave that impression.  My point was it isn't nearly as that of what comes out from the end of a cigarette from three feet away.  Here's a link:

http://www.yourdisea...;page=risk_list

Your link says that people who live in cities for 10 or more years are at a higher risk of lung cancer...and it lists car exhaust and factory pollution as the cause. Yet the antismoking crowd seems to want to avoid this little fact.

When the antismoking crowd deals with those 2 causes of lung cancer...then come talk to me about putting out my cigarette.

And, for the record, even if I'm where I'm allowed to smoke...and a non-smoker ASKS POLITELY for me to put out my cigarette...I'm more inclined to do so. But when they try and order me with a holier than thou attitude...they are more likely to get smoke blown in their face.

It's all about respect.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#47 Zwolf

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 04:01 PM

Quote

Then by all means find yourself a partner who is willing to blow you off while you eat. What's the problem here? Can't find someone willing to do it?

That's easy!  All you gotta do is find somebody who's trying to give up smoking!

(It's even easier if they've run out of gum... :) )

Seriously, this would never work in a restaurant.  Too noisy, all that bonking on the underside of the table...

Cheers,

Zwolf
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I'd put you down where you belong
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I'm never talking to you again
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#48 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 04:01 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Jul 11 2006, 04:23 PM, said:

No, it's NOT about clean air, LoTS (though Jid's point is well-taken: no one pipes car exhaust directly into enclosed spaces, like restaurants or elevators).

No it's just pumped directly into the air you're breathing.

Quote

It is as you said at the top--It's about rights, specifically about weighing your right to do your drug of choice against someone else's right NOT to do your drug of choice via exposure to the smoke.

So whose rights are more important? If you say nonsmokers...then where does it end? It won't end with the smokers. What about Obese people? They drive up the cost of health insurance, ect...we shouldn't have to deal with that? What about alcohol...the order, not to mention the behavior, of drunks is downright offensive...we shouldn't have to deal with that. What about perfumes? Some of those perfumes are downright offensive. We shouldn't have to deal with that.

Quote

I think New York State draws that line in a very sensible way: if you're outside, you take your chances.  You might end up walking behind someone smoking on the sidewalk, but you shouldn't have to share an enclosed space (like an elevator, or an airplane, or a restaurant) with lit cigarettes.

except for the restaurant part I agree. A seperate smoking section, with a seperate ventilation system should be fine. Non-smokers won't be affected, and smokers can enjoy their cigarettes.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#49 Captain Jack

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 04:08 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Jul 11 2006, 01:51 PM, said:

View PostSpidey, on Jul 11 2006, 04:08 PM, said:



Car emissions aren't squeaky clean, and I'm sorry I gave that impression.  My point was it isn't nearly as that of what comes out from the end of a cigarette from three feet away.  Here's a link:

http://www.yourdisea...;page=risk_list

Your link says that people who live in cities for 10 or more years are at a higher risk of lung cancer...and it lists car exhaust and factory pollution as the cause. Yet the antismoking crowd seems to want to avoid this little fact.

No, it say's it is only slightly higher.  Not like smokers exhaust that sticks to everything.

Quote

When the antismoking crowd deals with those 2 causes of lung cancer...then come talk to me about putting out my cigarette.

At least we have emissions standards for cars and such.  What "emissions" standards do we have for cigarettes?  None.

Quote

And, for the record, even if I'm where I'm allowed to smoke...and a non-smoker ASKS POLITELY for me to put out my cigarette...I'm more inclined to do so. But when they try and order me with a holier than thou attitude...they are more likely to get smoke blown in their face.

It's all about respect.

On that note, I agree.  :)

Edit:  No "Butts" about it.  LOL :D

Edited by Spidey, 11 July 2006 - 04:09 PM.

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#50 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 04:35 PM

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LOTS: It's too bad that phillips Morris chickened out of what they said they do if NY ever passed that law:
Big Tobacco might tough talk but they realize in the long term they have more to lose if they try to threaten the states.  You have a state with nothing to lose and you could be facing tighter regulation of where people can smoke along with higher taxes on tobacco products.  

Quote

LOTS: Does a person's right to clean air outweigh a motorists right to drive his car? Or the factories right to pollute the air with their byproducts?
How does a person’s right to smoke compete with the basic infrastructure and manufacturing base that keeps western civilization intact?  Just one time I’d like to see an answer how smoking is as important to civilization as transportation and industry.

Quote

Caesar: Was there a fire when you guys wasted water trying to hose down the smokers? Or were the cigarettes a fire hazard?
It was annual test of the external hydrants on the building that are near entrances.  Those lines are under a load all year around with water pressurized in the lines.  Once a year you open them up to see if they actually work and to clear out the old water.  They’d always chase people away from the outlets when they did this since.  Inevitably most people would stay away when you tell them or when they saw the signs.  That said my boss always said you’d get some smokers who’d drift back in despite the warnings since they were used to being chased away and then coming back.  So when the test started they’d mostly just end up with very wet feet when the system flushed the lines.  

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LOTS: What about Obese people?
Obese people aren’t putting poisonous fumes into the air that kill other people eventually.
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#51 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 05:02 PM

View PostZwolf666, on Jul 11 2006, 10:01 PM, said:

Quote

Then by all means find yourself a partner who is willing to blow you off while you eat. What's the problem here? Can't find someone willing to do it?

That's easy!  All you gotta do is find somebody who's trying to give up smoking!

(It's even easier if they've run out of gum... :) )

Seriously, this would never work in a restaurant.  Too noisy, all that bonking on the underside of the table...

Cheers,

Zwolf

I thought there were laws against public indecency? Otherwise this is something I can get behind.

Edited by Talkie Toaster, 11 July 2006 - 05:02 PM.

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#52 Rhea

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 06:07 PM

View PostCJ AEGIS, on Jul 11 2006, 02:35 PM, said:

Quote

LOTS: It's too bad that phillips Morris chickened out of what they said they do if NY ever passed that law:
Big Tobacco might tough talk but they realize in the long term they have more to lose if they try to threaten the states.  You have a state with nothing to lose and you could be facing tighter regulation of where people can smoke along with higher taxes on tobacco products.  

Quote

LOTS: Does a person's right to clean air outweigh a motorists right to drive his car? Or the factories right to pollute the air with their byproducts?
How does a person’s right to smoke compete with the basic infrastructure and manufacturing base that keeps western civilization intact?  Just one time I’d like to see an answer how smoking is as important to civilization as transportation and industry.

Quote

LOTS: What about Obese people?
Obese people aren’t putting poisonous fumes into the air that kill other people eventually.

What CJ said.

I'm always amazed at how smokers have to bring in other forms of nasty fumes, as though their existence somehow justifies the smoker and his fumes getting into MY lungs.

Obviously there's no justification for smoking when it's been proven to harm not just the smoker but others who are exposed to the smoke, so you have to point the finger somewhere else - car emissions! obese people! factories! anything that takes the onus off of you and points it somewhere else.
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#53 BklnScott

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 06:35 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Jul 11 2006, 05:01 PM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on Jul 11 2006, 04:23 PM, said:


No, it's NOT about clean air, LoTS (though Jid's point is well-taken: no one pipes car exhaust directly into enclosed spaces, like restaurants or elevators).

No it's just pumped directly into the air you're breathing.

As is your cigarette smoke.  Again, we're not talking about outside.  We're talking about enclosed spaces.

Quote

Quote

It is as you said at the top--It's about rights, specifically about weighing your right to do your drug of choice against someone else's right NOT to do your drug of choice via exposure to the smoke.

So whose rights are more important? If you say nonsmokers...then where does it end? It won't end with the smokers.  What about Obese people? They drive up the cost of health insurance, ect...we shouldn't have to deal with that?

Non sequitur.  There is no such thing as passive obesity.  Eat all you want: it won't make the person at the next table fat.  Can't say that about smoking, which absolutely does deposit carcinogens in the bloodstream of the person at the next table.  Yet they never lit up.  You did.

Quote

Quote

I think New York State draws that line in a very sensible way: if you're outside, you take your chances.  You might end up walking behind someone smoking on the sidewalk, but you shouldn't have to share an enclosed space (like an elevator, or an airplane, or a restaurant) with lit cigarettes.

except for the restaurant part I agree. A seperate smoking section, with a seperate ventilation system should be fine. Non-smokers won't be affected, and smokers can enjoy their cigarettes.

That dog won't hunt.  Patrons get to choose, yes, but what about the employees?  They have an absolute right to safe conditions on the job, and their employers have an absolute obligation to provide same.  They also have an obligation not to discriminate in hiring (e.g., "only smokers need apply.")  

Occam's razor, man: go.  outside.

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#54 Bobby

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 06:49 PM

So if they build smokers an enclosed place outside(well it wouldn't be outside persay just with glass walls and a roof) to protect them from the elements would nonsmokers have to be allowed in that space too?  Even if it's set aside just for smokers?  Nonsmokers can go in the building for warmth.

Smokers look so pitiful standing out in the snow trying to take a few drags.

#55 G1223

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 06:51 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Jul 11 2006, 02:46 PM, said:

Quote

Quote

LOTS: But cities like NY seem to take great delight in discriminating against smokers.

CJ: Our entire state has those laws and I’m proud of Albany for doing that.

As am I.  


Then I gather you would will stand by when they tell you how to have certain meals of the day. Like no fatty foods only water with lunch. How about the freedom to have three packets of taco sauce on your salad.

But hey it's only the freedom to choose. It's not like that is important or anything.
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#56 Rhea

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 07:53 PM

View PostG1223, on Jul 11 2006, 04:51 PM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on Jul 11 2006, 02:46 PM, said:

Quote

Quote

LOTS: But cities like NY seem to take great delight in discriminating against smokers.

CJ: Our entire state has those laws and I’m proud of Albany for doing that.

As am I.  

Then I gather you would will stand by when they tell you how to have certain meals of the day. Like no fatty foods only water with lunch. How about the freedom to have three packets of taco sauce on your salad.

But hey it's only the freedom to choose. It's not like that is important or anything.

Good try, no cigar.

How many packs of taco sauce you put on your taco doesn't affect anybody else's health. Nor when you eat lunch. Nor whether you have water with lunch.

At least pick an argument that addresses the topic.

Edited by Rhea, 11 July 2006 - 07:53 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#57 Batrochides

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 07:58 PM

I predict that the fibers from the synthetic materials that make up carpet fibers will be claimed to be carcinogenic, leading to a debate on whether we should have modern wall-to-wall carpeting.

You heard it from Batrochides first!

#58 Delvo

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 09:07 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Jul 11 2006, 01:49 AM, said:

IMO all this thread is going to become is another go around about smoker's rights and non-smoker's rights, and whose rights are more important.
Well, whether it does or not, you certainly gave it your best shot in the effort to make it so. :D

Edited by Delvo, 11 July 2006 - 10:02 PM.


#59 G1223

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 09:23 PM

Well the non smokers do not want seperate but equal. They want full access and not allow smokers that same right. They will coch it in other terms but the outcome is the same.
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

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#60 Broph

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 09:24 PM

View PostBatrochides, on Jul 12 2006, 12:58 AM, said:

I predict that the fibers from the synthetic materials that make up carpet fibers will be claimed to be carcinogenic, leading to a debate on whether we should have modern wall-to-wall carpeting.

You heard it from Batrochides first!

First? Hardly. Read how your sofa can make you sick

http://www.sfgate.co...HOG8LGUSDT1.DTL

And more specifically for carpets:

http://www.nontoxic....hattoavoid.html



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