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Israel seems ready to go to war against Lebanon

Middle East 2006 Israel Lebanon Conflict

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#41 BklnScott

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 09:47 AM

View PostCheile, on Jul 14 2006, 03:09 AM, said:

the Jews/Hebrews were there FIRST.  the Arabs need to either shut up and get along with their fellow human, or LEAVE.

Were they?  What about Exodus?  There Arabs were already there when the fugees from Egypt arrived.  Not that it matters who was there first.  They're both there NOW, and neither is about to be driven into the sea.  They can learn to peacefully coexist, or they can have war without end.  Sadly, this generation seems to have made its choice.

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#42 Themis

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 10:33 AM

View PostScottEVill, on Jul 14 2006, 02:47 PM, said:

Not that it matters who was there first.  They're both there NOW, and neither is about to be driven into the sea.  They can learn to peacefully coexist, or they can have war without end.  Sadly, this generation seems to have made its choice.

Exactly.  Too bad the rest of the world is involved for whatever reasons.  I wish they could be left to their own mess.

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#43 Cardie

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 11:53 AM

View PostCaesar of the Stars, on Jul 14 2006, 09:53 AM, said:

Was it the Lebanese military that kidnapped the soldiers?  So why is Israel getting away with bombing the civilian population?

Israel's rationale (whether you buy it or not) is that

1) Hezbollah is a rogue military force within the country, backed by Syria and Iran, and the Lebanese government has been unable to disarm it, so when it operates from a Lebanese base to attack Israel, they have to attack it where it lives.

2) Hezbollah purposely uses civilian homes and the Lebanese infrastructure to accomplish its strategic and tactical purposes, so that though Israel claims only to be targeting parts of Hezbollah's operational network, plenty of civilians are in the way.  Of course, Hez is targeting Israeli civilians with its rockets as well.

It would be nice if all sides could step back, but my gloomy prediction right now is : Not going to happen.

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#44 Bobby

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 12:14 PM

View PostCardie, on Jul 14 2006, 11:53 AM, said:

View PostCaesar of the Stars, on Jul 14 2006, 09:53 AM, said:


Was it the Lebanese military that kidnapped the soldiers?  So why is Israel getting away with bombing the civilian population?

Israel's rationale (whether you buy it or not) is that

1) Hezbollah is a rogue military force within the country, backed by Syria and Iran, and the Lebanese government has been unable to disarm it, so when it operates from a Lebanese base to attack Israel, they have to attack it where it lives.

2) Hezbollah purposely uses civilian homes and the Lebanese infrastructure to accomplish its strategic and tactical purposes, so that though Israel claims only to be targeting parts of Hezbollah's operational network, plenty of civilians are in the way.  Of course, Hez is targeting Israeli civilians with its rockets as well.

It would be nice if all sides could step back, but my gloomy prediction right now is : Not going to happen.

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I guess it's the same as the U.S. going into Afghanistan to get Al Queda.  Still, if they aren't measured in their response they'll be seen as overreacting.  Wouldn't this have been a job better suited to the Mossad?

Edited by Caesar of the Stars, 14 July 2006 - 12:16 PM.


#45 Cheile

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 12:29 PM

View PostCaesar of the Stars, on Jul 14 2006, 06:53 AM, said:

Following that line of thinking everyone but the Indians should pack up and leave America.  They were here first.  But that's confusing the issue, right?  Doesn't matter, the situations are similiar.

not really....the white people made a lot of mistakes with the Indians but we all coexist peacefully today and have for a few decades at least.

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Of course who determines who's "innocent"??

eh at this rate, i would just say mostly the children who are either not old enough to be
"brainwashed" if mommy, daddy or uncle Reuben is a terrorist, or old enough to be taught better and un-brainwashed.

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#46 SparkyCola

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 02:43 PM

When both sides are bombing each other to Hades- there comes a point at which there can be no 'right' side. Which is why it bothers me that Israel gets support from the West simply because a lot of Jews have a lot of power in the West, which can't really be said of the Arabs.

How can anyone back the killing of innocent children, under ANY 'cause'?

Who cares who was 'there first'? Is it just me who finds that attitude remarkably childish? If it comes down to going back to where we came from Africa's about to get mighty full up. How pathetic! :angry:

You'd think they could come to some arrangement- but nooo 'fight fire with fire' react instead of respond, i can't tell you how much it angers me :angry:

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#47 QueenTiye

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 04:10 PM

The Baha'i community is also affected by this - as Haifa is home to the central authority of the Faith, and the pilgrimmage site.

http://www.eyeonisrael.com (x: 266 y: 198 is approximately where yesterday's rockets landed, and if you click there you'll be able to see the cultural landmarks at risk, along with innocent civilians.)

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Edited by QueenTiye, 14 July 2006 - 04:10 PM.

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#48 G1223

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 04:23 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Jul 14 2006, 03:43 PM, said:

When both sides are bombing each other to Hades- there comes a point at which there can be no 'right' side. Which is why it bothers me that Israel gets support from the West simply because a lot of Jews have a lot of power in the West, which can't really be said of the Arabs.

How can anyone back the killing of innocent children, under ANY 'cause'?

Who cares who was 'there first'? Is it just me who finds that attitude remarkably childish? If it comes down to going back to where we came from Africa's about to get mighty full up. How pathetic! :angry:

You'd think they could come to some arrangement- but nooo 'fight fire with fire' react instead of respond, i can't tell you how much it angers me :angry:

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The side that started shooting started the kid killing. The bad guys take cover behind the kids of their own country. They do not care one wit if those kids live or die. They just want to attack and not get hit in reply.

What response to being attacked is a person suppose to have?  Or a nation? Start having a discussion while the missles keep flying in killing the kids. How are you going to have a discussion that is not a surrender. Espically if the killers will kill the survivors.  These are terrorist we are talking about.
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#49 tennyson

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 04:48 PM

They people who were living in Palestine during the Exodus weren't Arabs, they were Cannanites, Moabites, Ammorites(Amurru), and a host of other ethnicities that have either become extinct or changed beyond recognition. They had a completely different religion, cultural norms, settlement patterns and artifacts of culture than the  Arab population that would move in more than a millenium later.
The people who the Isrealites took the land from are long since dust and populations from all over the Middle East and Mediterranean have moved in since then, Philistines, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Hittites from the NeoHittite kingdoms, Babylonians, Bedoiuns(Shasu to the Egyptians), Arameans, Persains, Greeks, Romans, you don't get the Arabs assuming control and undergoing extensive migration into the area until the around the 7th century of the common era after they defeated the remants of the Byzantine Empire in the region.
Arabs don't even show up as a defined ethnic group until later on in Assyrian and Babylonian records from each of thier resurgent empires.
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#50 MuseZack

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 05:33 PM

Wow.  Hezbollah just hit an Israeli warship with an explosives-packed unmanned aerial vehicle.  They're not nice guys, but you have to give them their props.  Rigging up a homemade cruise missile is pretty darn clever.
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#51 tennyson

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 05:37 PM

Do you know the ship or have a link I could follow?
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#52 Delvo

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 05:57 PM

View Posttennyson, on Jul 14 2006, 05:48 PM, said:

They people who were living in Palestine during the Exodus weren't Arabs, they were Cannanites, Moabites, Ammorites(Amurru), and a host of other ethnicities that have either become extinct or changed beyond recognition... Arabs don't even show up as a defined ethnic group until later on in Assyrian and Babylonian records from each of thier resurgent empires.
And they're native to Arabia, not Palestine, which is territory they merely expanded into later.

#53 MuseZack

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 05:57 PM

View Posttennyson, on Jul 14 2006, 10:37 PM, said:

Do you know the ship or have a link I could follow?


http://news.yahoo.co...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Here you go; details still sketchy.  Reading this, you can see why so many experts call Hezbollah "the A-team of terrorism."  Their technical capabilities and tactical cleverness are miles ahead of most other groups, and should be sobering to the US given our experience in Iraq.  It was 15 years of Israeli occupation that turned the Lebanese Shi'ites from being one of the region's most docile sectarian groups to incubating and honing the toughest, most effective terrorist/guerrilla movement this side of the Tamil Tigers.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#54 Bobby

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 06:02 PM

View PostMuseZack, on Jul 14 2006, 05:33 PM, said:

Wow.  Hezbollah just hit an Israeli warship with an explosives-packed unmanned aerial vehicle.  They're not nice guys, but you have to give them their props.  Rigging up a homemade cruise missile is pretty darn clever.

Necessity is the mother of invention.  How fast was it going to be able to hit the ship?  Were they not able to shoot the thing down?

#55 tennyson

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 06:05 PM

Things continue to move faster than I thought they would. Events are still somewhat controlable but this is definitely heading into a very bad place.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#56 White Tiger

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 06:43 PM

I remember posting something a few weeks ago concerning radio controlled planes terrorists may use.
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#57 QueenTiye

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 06:50 PM

View PostEnmar, on Jul 13 2006, 03:07 PM, said:

Interestig update.

The rocket that landed in Haifa was not a Katyusha. It was something called Fejar  3 (sp?) made in Iran. And Israeli intelligence say they also have Fajer 5 (Iranian) BM27 (Syrian) and one battery of Iranian Zilzal 2 missiles that are capable of carying a 600kg warhead in 210 km range. That covers more than half of Israel. :eek:

:( Enmar - please keep posting as this situation continues.  We will all feel a little better knowing that you're safe and sound.

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#58 Bobby

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 06:59 PM

Why did they kidnap the soldiers now?  It's not standard practice, is it?  Were they emboldened by the recent kidnappings of America soldiers?  Why not just any old civilian?

#59 BklnScott

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 07:57 PM

View PostCheile, on Jul 14 2006, 01:29 PM, said:

View PostCaesar of the Stars, on Jul 14 2006, 06:53 AM, said:

Following that line of thinking everyone but the Indians should pack up and leave America.  They were here first.  But that's confusing the issue, right?  Doesn't matter, the situations are similiar.

not really....the white people made a lot of mistakes with the Indians but we all coexist peacefully today and have for a few decades at least.

:eek4:  Um, maybe that's because there are so few of them left!  Their languages are dead or dying.  Their cultures are dead or dying.  The native peoples are thisclose to extinction.  If that's what you call peaceful coexistence, ok.  It's what I call genocide.  

View PostSparkyCola, on Jul 14 2006, 03:43 PM, said:

it bothers me that Israel gets support from the West simply because a lot of Jews have a lot of power in the West

Excuse me???  To me, it seems like that crack comes dangerously close to the "Zionist conspiracy" charge.  It couldn't possibly be that the Palestinians, and their backers, still--insanely--think they can get a better deal by fighting than at the negotiating table?  The West--wisely--is siding with a) their ally, and b) those who are willing to settle this.  

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How can anyone back the killing of innocent children, under ANY 'cause'?

War is hell.  I don't hear you complaining about all the children killed in, say, Dresden.  (Or, for that matter, in Ulster.)    

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Who cares who was 'there first'? Is it just me who finds that attitude remarkably childish?

If they could wax philosophical about it, Jerusalem would've become the Vatican City of the Middle East 10 years ago and be well on its way to becoming the filthy rich asset to BOTH sides that it should be.

View Posttennyson, on Jul 14 2006, 05:48 PM, said:

They people who were living in Palestine during the Exodus weren't Arabs, they were Cannanites, Moabites, Ammorites(Amurru), and a host of other ethnicities that have either become extinct or changed beyond recognition. They had a completely different religion, cultural norms, settlement patterns and artifacts of culture than the  Arab population that would move in more than a millenium later.
The people who the Isrealites took the land from are long since dust and populations from all over the Middle East and Mediterranean have moved in since then, Philistines, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Hittites from the NeoHittite kingdoms, Babylonians, Bedoiuns(Shasu to the Egyptians), Arameans, Persains, Greeks, Romans, you don't get the Arabs assuming control and undergoing extensive migration into the area until the around the 7th century of the common era after they defeated the remants of the Byzantine Empire in the region.
Arabs don't even show up as a defined ethnic group until later on in Assyrian and Babylonian records from each of thier resurgent empires.

Thanks for the history lesson, T.  As always, much aprpeciated.  :)  


View PostMuseZack, on Jul 14 2006, 06:33 PM, said:

Wow.  Hezbollah just hit an Israeli warship with an explosives-packed unmanned aerial vehicle.  They're not nice guys, but you have to give them their props.

Whoa.  Holy "V," Batman.

Edited by ScottEVill, 14 July 2006 - 08:06 PM.

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#60 D'Monix

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 11:52 PM

From some of the reports it said the Israeli ship had a crew in 'the dozens', so it sounds like one of their Sa'ar missile boats got hit.



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