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Israel seems ready to go to war against Lebanon

Middle East 2006 Israel Lebanon Conflict

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#81 gsmonks

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 04:43 PM

http://www.jpost.com.....icle/ShowFull
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#82 MuseZack

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 05:35 PM

View Postgsmonks, on Jul 15 2006, 09:43 PM, said:



I read the link.  Attacking Tripoli?  Look at a damn map.  Tripoli is in the north of Lebanon.  It's mostly Sunni and Maronite Christian (my mother's family originally hails from the region.)  There are no Hezbollah targets there.  The Israeli attacks have clearly gone far beyond a military response to Hezbollah and into the realm of collective punishment of the Lebanese people-- something which is borne out by the casualty figuries (the majority of Israeli casualties have been military, while the vast majority of Lebanese dead and wounded have been civilians).  And collective punishment of an entire population is a war crime, plain and simple.
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#83 Spectacles

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 07:16 PM

Quote

Zack: The Israeli attacks have clearly gone far beyond a military response to Hezbollah and into the realm of collective punishment of the Lebanese people-- something which is borne out by the casualty figuries (the majority of Israeli casualties have been military, while the vast majority of Lebanese dead and wounded have been civilians). And collective punishment of an entire population is a war crime, plain and simple.

Yep. If Israel had confined its actions to the Hezbollah-controlled south, that would be one thing. Bombing non-Hezbollah-controlled areas and wheat silos is a whole nother matter. Looks pretty clear they've chosen to punish all of Lebanon. Makes no damned sense to me.

P.S. Zack, I hope your relatives fare as well as possible.

Edited by Spectacles, 15 July 2006 - 07:17 PM.

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#84 emsparks

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 08:50 PM

View PostMuseZack, on Jul 15 2006, 06:35 PM, said:

View Postgsmonks, on Jul 15 2006, 09:43 PM, said:



I read the link.  Attacking Tripoli?  Look at a damn map.  Tripoli is in the north of Lebanon.  It's mostly Sunni and Maronite Christian (my mother's family originally hails from the region.)  There are no Hezbollah targets there.  The Israeli attacks have clearly gone far beyond a military response to Hezbollah and into the realm of collective punishment of the Lebanese people-- something which is borne out by the casualty figuries (the majority of Israeli casualties have been military, while the vast majority of Lebanese dead and wounded have been civilians).  And collective punishment of an entire population is a war crime, plain and simple.


Zack;
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#85 gsmonks

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 09:42 PM

View PostMuseZack, on Jul 15 2006, 04:35 PM, said:

View Postgsmonks, on Jul 15 2006, 09:43 PM, said:


I read the link.  Attacking Tripoli?  Look at a damn map.  Tripoli is in the north of Lebanon.  It's mostly Sunni and Maronite Christian (my mother's family originally hails from the region.)  There are no Hezbollah targets there.  The Israeli attacks have clearly gone far beyond a military response to Hezbollah and into the realm of collective punishment of the Lebanese people-- something which is borne out by the casualty figuries (the majority of Israeli casualties have been military, while the vast majority of Lebanese dead and wounded have been civilians).  And collective punishment of an entire population is a war crime, plain and simple.

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#86 Batrochides

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:27 PM

Lebanon has never recognized Israel; and if any state permits an entity to set itself up as a state-within-a-state to launch acts of war against another state, the latter is justified to take whatever action or force is needed to protect itself and neutralize the danger to it, up to and including regarding itself at war with the state that has allowed that entity to exist.

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#87 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 12:30 AM

View PostBatrochides, on Jul 15 2006, 11:27 PM, said:

Lebanon has never recognized Israel; and if any state permits an entity to set itself up as a state-within-a-state to launch acts of war against another state, the latter is justified to take whatever action or force is needed to protect itself and neutralize the danger to it, up to and including regarding itself at war with the state that has allowed that entity to exist.

Batrochides

I have to agree. And as for the nations that say Israel's response is too severe...I wonder how those nations would respond if a state allowed a terrorist regime to exist in their midst, and that terrorist group kidnapped 2 of their soldier from their land????
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#88 gsmonks

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 01:15 AM

The prevailing wisdom is that Hezbollah allowed an Iranian group to launch a guided aircraft at an Israeli warship.

In 1999 the Egyptian Islamic Jihad officially merged with al-Qaeda.

Al-Qaeda, in turn, is a Sunni Muslim paramilitary organisation.

For those of you who don't know, al-Qaeda means "the database".

The name comes from the original CIA computer file that listed the thousands of mujahideen who were trained, with CIA help, to fight the Soviets.

This organisation claims that their raison d'etre is to reduce outside influence on Islamic affairs.

Al-Qaeda was strongly opposed to Iraq's secular regime under Saddam Hussein, and the price to be paid for toppling that regime has been the infiltration of al-Qaeda into Iraq's Sunni population.

Around 90% of the world's Muslims are Sunni. The remainder, mostly Shi'a, make up the remaining 10%.

This is not to say that all Sunnis are extremists- far from it. But their spread and integration into various Sunni communities is a bit like Chinese Triad gangs in Vancouver, Toronto and San Francisco.

And the Shi'as are one of their favourite targets, which would be like recent-immigrant Chinese Triad gang-members terrorising Vancouver, Toronto or San Francisco's China Towns, attacking without warning with guns, machetes and bombs, and melting back into the general population by the time the police have arrived to investigate.

When al-Qaeda states that it wants to reduce outside influence, my understanding is that this means that a small number of extremist Imams are trying to hijack their own people and hold them hostage to what amounts to an ancient narrow and brutal code that has more to do with old tribal ways than Islam. These tribal ways, in turn, are followed by the population's least educated, poorest, and most disenfranshised.

Many of al-Qaeda's leaders are Egyptian, and many experts claim that bin Laden's terror network grew in part out of Egyptian extremist groups.

This means that al-Qaeda has bases in Egypt, Saudi Arabia (all of the 9-11 terrorists were members of the same mosque in Saudi Arabia), Afghanistan, Pakistan (especially Peshawar), the United States (particularly the Alkifah refugee centre in Brooklyn), Morocco, Turkey, Jordan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Syria, Xinjiang in China, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Myanmar, Indonesia, Mindanao in the Philippines, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, Libya, Tunisia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Dagestan, Jammu and Kashmri, Sudan, Somalia, Kenya, Tanzania, Azerbaijan, Eritrea, Uganda, Ethiopia, as also in parts of the West Bank and Gaza.

So, how far could the conflict between Israel and Lebanon spread?

The various extremist organisations are getting bigger and bigger and more organised, and world leaders, in private, are no doubt toying with the idea of allowing this matter to escalate so that they can use the excuse of war to suspend the law of the land in order that their hands will be freed, allowing them to go after these organisations and exterminate them.

At least that is how it would start.

The last Dark Age began with such intentions.
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#89 G1223

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 02:51 AM

View PostRivergirl, on Jul 15 2006, 04:04 PM, said:

Silly as in suggesting that the Lebanese government ever had the ability to disarm Hizbullah.  

At the time Israel withdrew/was forced out by Hizbullah (depending on which side of the border you're on), Lebanon was totally controlled by Syria -- their military and their secret police.  Syria supports Hizbullah.  There is no way that Lebanon could have disarmed them then.  

Even now that the Syrians are gone (at least officially) the government and it's military ( a giant make-work project rather than an effective force) couldn't disarm the militia.  Not without a lot of blood being spilled.

Then it would fair to say that there is no actaul government and that Syria is activly attacking Israel. So whatever Israel is doing is going to be excused as self defense.

I heard s rumor that Iran is asking to have the kidnapped soldier given to them. I wonder,if it's true, what they are going to do with the guy?
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#90 gsmonks

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 03:56 AM

View PostG1223, on Jul 16 2006, 01:51 AM, said:

View PostRivergirl, on Jul 15 2006, 04:04 PM, said:




Silly as in suggesting that the Lebanese government ever had the ability to disarm Hizbullah.  

At the time Israel withdrew/was forced out by Hizbullah (depending on which side of the border you're on), Lebanon was totally controlled by Syria -- their military and their secret police.  Syria supports Hizbullah.  There is no way that Lebanon could have disarmed them then.  

Even now that the Syrians are gone (at least officially) the government and it's military ( a giant make-work project rather than an effective force) couldn't disarm the militia.  Not without a lot of blood being spilled.

Then it would fair to say that there is no actaul government and that Syria is activly attacking Israel. So whatever Israel is doing is going to be excused as self defense.

I heard s rumor that Iran is asking to have the kidnapped soldier given to them. I wonder,if it's true, what they are going to do with the guy?

Behead him on video, what else?

Al-Qaeda would like nothing better than to drag the entire Middle East, if not the entire world, into this.

Israel, on the other hand, are primed to lash out at the extremists on all fronts.

As with all wars, this is a matter of a small number of people holding a lot of innocent people hostage to their private agendas.

As with all wars, expecially committed wars, the highest numbers of casualties are always suffered by innocent civilians.
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#91 andromeda3

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 04:58 AM

Britons prepare to evacuate

Navy ships told to stand by on Lebanese coast


Denis Campbell
Sunday July 16, 2006
The Observer

Two Royal Navy ships are being sent to the coast of Lebanon to help prepare for the possible evacuation of an estimated 10,000 British citizens, whom the Foreign Office has warned to be ready to flee the growing chaos at short notice.
......

The US State Department and the Pentagon are making arrangements to evacuate as many of the 25,000 Americans living or working in Lebanon who want to leave and take them to nearby Cyprus, possibly in a mass airlift.
Around 410 Italians and other Europeans left Beirut in a convoy of vehicles, heading for the Syrian port of Latakia.
.........
One hundred and sixteen Spaniards and 10 others who were driven to Syria from Beirut on Friday landed at an air force base near Madrid yesterday in a military flight from Damascus.
France said it was putting in a place a special ferry to evacuate its citizens from Lebanon, its former colony, to Cyprus. The navy had been alerted and both civilian and military aircraft were ready to help citizens, said the French prime minister Dominique de Villepin. Germany, the Netherlands, Bulgaria, Poland, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates said plans were under way to help their citizens reach Syria or Cyprus.

From:
http://observer.guar...1821770,00.html


No mention of Canada...(((Rivergirl))), I hope you’re safe and find a way to get out of Lebanon.



BTW
There are new posts from inside Lebanon at:
http://lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com/

Edited by andromeda3, 16 July 2006 - 05:00 AM.


#92 Enmar

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 06:33 AM

Hi guys, thanks for caring and my thoughts to all trapped in this Rivergirl and maybe some other silent readers around here. I'll do my best to tell you what I know.

CROWIN: I can't imagine why they wouldn't have had their EWS active... They are lucky that the ship had as little damage and as few casualties as it did.

Yeah the systems were off. No, nobody can tell us why the hell were they off. I heard some stupid explanation that they were operating near Israeli aircraft and didn't want to hurt them – but that's not possible, of course. The whole damn point of those systems is to tell who's your enemy and who's a friend. Another thing told on TV is "we didn't know they have the capability". This is also rather stupid. This it what happens in a war – you don't know everything. Anyway – the systems are now on everywhere, naturally, and those missiles don't stand a chance.

I haven't heard a word here about the missiles being launched by Iranians :eh: I only heard they were of Chinese design, copied and manufactured in Iran.


The Spear was not toed to Isreal, is sailed on it's own and entered Ashdod port last evening. It was broadcast live here and  you couldn't miss the fact they only let the military PR take photos of it and they all showed the "pretty" side – a little black from the fire but unharmed. Of course, this is not the entire picture.

You can see it here (click Ahi Hanit on the bottom) :

http://www1.idf.il/D...p...888&force=1

emsparks: Zack; I have two words for you "Radar Stations."

Perfectly right. The IAF didn't harm a single military Lebanese target until this and haven’t since. But the missile fired on the Spear had to acquire the target with a radar before it was launched. That means active cooperation of one of those military radar stations (or some people in them). And that's why they were destroyed. There's no reason for Israel to hurt anything else in Tripoli because the harbour poses no theat – there's a sea blockade.
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#93 Spectacles

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 06:36 AM

View Postgsmonks, on Jul 16 2006, 02:15 AM, said:

The prevailing wisdom is that Hezbollah allowed an Iranian group to launch a guided aircraft at an Israeli warship.

In 1999 the Egyptian Islamic Jihad officially merged with al-Qaeda.

Al-Qaeda, in turn, is a Sunni Muslim paramilitary organisation.

For those of you who don't know, al-Qaeda means "the database".

The name comes from the original CIA computer file that listed the thousands of mujahideen who were trained, with CIA help, to fight the Soviets.

This organisation claims that their raison d'etre is to reduce outside influence on Islamic affairs.

Al-Qaeda was strongly opposed to Iraq's secular regime under Saddam Hussein, and the price to be paid for toppling that regime has been the infiltration of al-Qaeda into Iraq's Sunni population.

Around 90% of the world's Muslims are Sunni. The remainder, mostly Shi'a, make up the remaining 10%.

This is not to say that all Sunnis are extremists- far from it. But their spread and integration into various Sunni communities is a bit like Chinese Triad gangs in Vancouver, Toronto and San Francisco.

And the Shi'as are one of their favourite targets, which would be like recent-immigrant Chinese Triad gang-members terrorising Vancouver, Toronto or San Francisco's China Towns, attacking without warning with guns, machetes and bombs, and melting back into the general population by the time the police have arrived to investigate.

When al-Qaeda states that it wants to reduce outside influence, my understanding is that this means that a small number of extremist Imams are trying to hijack their own people and hold them hostage to what amounts to an ancient narrow and brutal code that has more to do with old tribal ways than Islam. These tribal ways, in turn, are followed by the population's least educated, poorest, and most disenfranshised.

Many of al-Qaeda's leaders are Egyptian, and many experts claim that bin Laden's terror network grew in part out of Egyptian extremist groups.

This means that al-Qaeda has bases in Egypt, Saudi Arabia (all of the 9-11 terrorists were members of the same mosque in Saudi Arabia), Afghanistan, Pakistan (especially Peshawar), the United States (particularly the Alkifah refugee centre in Brooklyn), Morocco, Turkey, Jordan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Syria, Xinjiang in China, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Myanmar, Indonesia, Mindanao in the Philippines, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, Libya, Tunisia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Dagestan, Jammu and Kashmri, Sudan, Somalia, Kenya, Tanzania, Azerbaijan, Eritrea, Uganda, Ethiopia, as also in parts of the West Bank and Gaza.

So, how far could the conflict between Israel and Lebanon spread?

The various extremist organisations are getting bigger and bigger and more organised, and world leaders, in private, are no doubt toying with the idea of allowing this matter to escalate so that they can use the excuse of war to suspend the law of the land in order that their hands will be freed, allowing them to go after these organisations and exterminate them.

At least that is how it would start.

The last Dark Age began with such intentions.

Yep.

And Sunnis and Al Qaeda aside, Hezbollah is Shiite, set up and maintained by Iran, which is largely Shiite, with Syria's help. That's another important piece of this.

It's interesting that there are two rival brands of Islam--Sunni and Shia--who will fight each other (as in Iraq) over theological differences, and yet the issue that has united them and radicalized them is the existence of Israel.

Israel and by extension "the West" (primarily the U.S.) who established the modern state of Israel after WWII is their common enemy. Add to the mix the "Golden Age" theology of returning Islam to a "purer," more fundamentalist state, and the West looks positively evil to them. They're crazed by hatred of Israel and two different strains of wacky Islamic fundamentalism--and though the Sunnis and Shiite hate each other, they're two bristling peas in a pod.

It's no coincidence that the Sunni Palestinian organization Hamas and the Shiite Lebanese organization Hezbollah have either sprouted or crept up to Israel's borders, the better to harrass Israel.

And no peace process will succeed as long as these organizations remain powerful because a peace process depends upon recognizing Israel's borders. They do not recognize Israel's right to exist at all.

So I have no problem at all with Israel's attempt right now to break the backs of Hezbollah and Hamas. And it looks like even moderate Arab nations like Egypt and Jordan and even Saudi Arabia understand that too. (Of course, those moderate governments have to contend with their own strains of Islamist terrorist organizations in their midst.)

But Lebanon is not Hezbollah, and Hezbollah is not Lebanon. Lebanon's government, democratically elected, is in a similar position that Iraq's government is in: some seats are held by secularists who'd like to just have a country, please, and some are held by religious extremists. And the strongest, most effective militia is not run by the government but by the militias controlled by the Shia. This is true in both Iraq and Lebanon.

The government of Lebanon has not disarmed Hezbollah not because they like Hezbollah, but because Hezbollah is more powerful that the Lebanese Army. In addition, as in Iraq, the Lebanese Army is composed of Sunnis and Shiites, and some of the Shiites won't fight Hezbollah.

So the parallels to Iraq are disturbing: a weak (as in no solid security apparatus and firm legal system to support it) democracy contending with well-armed, Islamic extremist militias. In Iraq, the situation is even shakier because the Sunnis and the Shiites are at each others' throats.

I agree with the Bush administration that we have to somehow break Islamist extremism. But the problem is that the Bush administration has attempted to do this as it has done most things, putting the cart before the horse and using PR to convince people that something solid has been accomplished. You can't roll out the "democracy" tent if there are no poles to support it. And those poles are a sound defense and legal system that the majority of the people adhere to.

So, you end up with paper democracies, as in Lebanon and Iraq and Palestine. If all "democracy" is is a vote, then you'll have voted into your democracies extremists. This has happened in Lebanon (Hezbollah), Palestine (Hamas), and Iraq (assorted Shia parties with ties to Iran).

A democracy is a reflection of the ideologies of its people. If a country is home to extremist ideologies, it will elect representatives of that extremist ideology. If that ideology is completely intolerant of others, then it will work against the foundation of democracy and attempt to impose its will, by force, regardless of the government.

That's what has happened in Lebanon and is likely to happen in Iraq.

So, this is a long way of saying, what a helluva mess.

But all of Lebanon is NOT responsible for the actions of Hezbollah. There's a difference between endorsing something and being physically unable to disarm it.

So while I don't mind one bit if Israel pounds the hell out of Hezbollah and Hamas, I hope they exercise discretion and don't make the innocent  people of Lebanon pay for the actions of an organization that is beyond their control.
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#94 andromeda3

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 07:28 AM

View PostEnmar, on Jul 16 2006, 01:33 PM, said:

CROWIN: I can't imagine why they wouldn't have had their EWS active... They are lucky that the ship had as little damage and as few casualties as it did.

Yeah the systems were off. No, nobody can tell us why the hell were they off. I heard some stupid explanation that they were operating near Israeli aircraft and didn't want to hurt them – but that's not possible, of course. The whole damn point of those systems is to tell who's your enemy and who's a friend. Another thing told on TV is "we didn't know they have the capability". This is also rather stupid. This it what happens in a war – you don't know everything. Anyway – the systems are now on everywhere, naturally, and those missiles don't stand a chance.

I haven't heard a word here about the missiles being launched by Iranians :eh: I only heard they were of Chinese design, copied and manufactured in Iran.


That reminds me of something I read in the Jerusalem Post:

From the Jerusalem Post:

Jul. 16, 2006 12:04 | Updated Jul. 16, 2006 14:34
Iran denies having soldiers in Lebanon
By ASSOCIATED PRESS
TEHERAN, Iran

.....
Israel said Saturday that 100 Iranian troops from the elite Revolutionary Guards were in Lebanon, and that they helped Hizbullah fire a sophisticated radar-guided missile at an Israeli warship blockading the Lebanese coast late Friday.
Initially, it was believed that an unmanned drone laden with explosives had hit the Israeli warship, but it later became clear that Hizbullah had used what Israel described as an Iranian-made, radar-guided C-802 missile

from
http://www.jpost.com.....icle/ShowFull


Also from The Jerusalem Post:
. ...
Senior naval officers admitted Saturday night that they were taken completely by surprise by the missile attack, claiming that they did not know that Hizbullah possessed such advanced capabilities. The missile has a 100-kilometer range.
...
Officials confirmed that the anti-missile detection systems were not operating at the time of the attack since the navy was apparently unaware that Hizbullah had such capabilities.

from
http://www.jpost.com.....icle/ShowFull


Stay safe, Enmar!

#95 Delvo

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 08:49 AM

View PostSpectacles, on Jul 16 2006, 07:36 AM, said:

It's interesting that there are two rival brands of Islam--Sunni and Shia--who will fight each other (as in Iraq) over theological differences, and yet the issue that has united them and radicalized them is the existence of Israel.

Israel and by extension "the West" (primarily the U.S.) who established the modern state of Israel after WWII is their common enemy.
That place has been under Occidental influence and/or control since long before that. Before it was called Isreal and the Jews started moving in, it was a part of the British Empire. But you never hear Arabs complaining about that part prior to the Jewish immigration, and the British controllers at the time didn't want Jews moving there because they knew the Jews' presence would drive the Arab population berserk when they were otherwise fairly stable. So it's not political for them; it's religious.

View PostSpectacles, on Jul 16 2006, 07:36 AM, said:

So I have no problem at all with Israel's attempt right now to break the backs of Hezbollah and Hamas. And it looks like even moderate Arab nations like Egypt and Jordan and even Saudi Arabia understand that too... I don't mind one bit if Israel pounds the hell out of Hezbollah and Hamas...
The main problem is going to be the same thing it always has been: holding back because supposedly it would look bad to others if they/we really seriously hit them for a change. News flash, people: they're going to yap about how evil whatever you did was regardless of what you really did!

#96 Spectacles

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 09:11 AM

Quote

Delvo: The main problem is going to be the same thing it always has been: holding back because supposedly it would look bad to others if they/we really seriously hit them for a change.

I honestly don't think so. I think most of the world, including many in the Arab League, are fed up with Hezbollah and Iran and extremists in general.  Few tears would be shed for Hezbollah. But if Israel goes after all of Lebanon, which is unnecessary, that will erode support. They need to be very, very careful about that.
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#97 Enmar

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 01:08 PM

OK – I will now officially try to answear the big question of "what the hell is Israel trying to do and everything"

It goes, more or less, like this.

Israel has withdrawn from its occupation in south Lebanon about 6 years ago. The border was ceremonially measured, marked and confirmed by UN officials. The UN published a decision that calls the Lebanese government to send its army to the border with Israel.

But the Lebanese government haven't – being under Syrian control, it was really an imaginary demand to make – they couldn't do it. Then Syria "left" Lebanon, and with time Lebanon is growing more and more independent (with the occasional assassination :ninja: ) . But it never grew strong enough to confront the Hezbollah. Because unlike what the western press would like you to believe, it is not "just" a terror organization. It also gives many community services – health care, child care, religious services and so on. They're well funded by Iran and they collect huge donations because of their activities "for the good of the people". This is how they managed to run to Lebanese parliament and become members of the current government. The Lebanese government can not face them – not in battle (this country can not afford another civil war) and not in public opinion (because they do help poor people and because they "defeated" Israel by driving it away from Lebanon).

The aim of the Israeli attack is to change that. Historically – I don't think anything good ever happened to anyone trying to influence the balance of powers within this country. But honestly – I do believe it's worth trying and it seems to be working, at least for now.

Israel's attacks are not random – they are all accurate and well connected to terror activities. And it is constantly being explained to the population. It makes the population angry at the terrorists and it changes the balance of power so that the weakened Hezbollah will be no real enemy to the Lebanese army.

View PostSpectacles, on Jul 16 2006, 04:11 PM, said:

I think most of the world, including many in the Arab League, are fed up with Hezbollah and Iran and extremists in general.  Few tears would be shed for Hezbollah.

That is correct. Listen to the overwhelming silence around this. The big forces of Islam would like the moderate government of Lebanon to come out of this conflict stronger. They like what is being done. The most stunning reaction is the Saudi:

Comments from a Saudi official made Thursday that the people should distinguish between legitimate resistance and dangerous adventurism by some parties without cooperation from their governments and the Arab states represented a major shift in the kingdom's position regarding the escalating violence in Lebanon.
http://www.dailystar...rticle_id=73983
Don't let "the source" trick get you – this is as official as it gets.

The attacks
1. You can not hunt down over 10,000 missiles.
2. Hezbollah hid many of them out of range, for the fear of the usual Israeli air strikes. That is why the first targets were the bridges. All bridges connecting south Lebanon and north were completely destroyed – to trap as much of the ammunition in the north where it's useless.
3. Bombing all missile shelters in the south and mostly in the east (near Syria) where the logistic centers are.
4. Bombing the HQs in Beirut. What you see on TV is a little misleading – a part of Beirut is totally wiped out – but everything else is almost untouched.
5. Closing supply roots. Airport has been shut down. There's naval blockade. The roads to Syria have been bombed and are unusable. Gas stations in South Lebanon have been bombed (I'm not sure that's smart – that stops civilians from getting out of there and the terrorists probably have some stored :eh: )
There have been more then 1000 air strikes until now against about 500 targets. About 20 civilians killed in ONE of them while trying to leave the fighting zone. If you do the math – amazingly low body count – or maybe there are more dead but Hezbollah doesn't want the world to know? I've no idea.
This ambitious plan seems to be working. There's already negotiation between Israel and Lebanon through the Italian government. The Lebanese PM said in a press conferences last night he is willing to send his army to the border. Now, it's just a game of precious time –time  to work out a formula that won't hurt anybody's pride and time to do as much damage as possible to the Hezbollah – to wipe it out as a militant organization and leave only the charity organization.
Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings.

#98 Enmar

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 01:23 PM

Wow – updates.

1. The arrow has been deployed. This means the assumption is the Hezbollah has combat ready long range missiles and there's a good chance they'll use them on central Israel. Scary.
2. The IDF started using MLRS firing from Israel on South Lebanon. I'm not really sure what this change tells us :eh:
3. the G8 released a statement that practically allows Israel to go on doing exactly the same :
http://today.reuters..._0_US-GROUP.xml
Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings.

#99 emsparks

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 01:33 PM

View PostEnmar, on Jul 16 2006, 02:23 PM, said:

Wow – updates.

1. The arrow has been deployed. This means the assumption is the Hezbollah has combat ready long range missiles and there's a good chance they'll use them on central Israel. Scary.
2. The IDF started using MLRS firing from Israel on South Lebanon. I'm not really sure what this change tells us :eh:
3. the G8 released a statement that practically allows Israel to go on doing exactly the same :
http://today.reuters..._0_US-GROUP.xml

Enmar, Shalom.

Please excuse that that is about the only herbrew I know…

The MlRS is highly accurate, and very good for counter battery fire.
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#100 offworlder

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    pls don't kick offworlders, we can find a place too

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 02:00 PM

oh great, another war killing civilians - yes IDF are mostly targeting what they think is paramilitary, but on both sides the military arent dying, it's the civilians, and mums and kids; just today it's reported by AP that five of the civilian dead carry Canadian passports .......... and on it goes, rockets and choppers and jets and 155 artillary oh my ........
>Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah said Sunday that his fighters still have plenty of weapons and the will to keep fighting. ... "Our fighters are ready, and they love the confrontation and have the determination to defeat," he said in a televised address in Arabic to the Lebanese people. ... "And as we surprised [Israel] in the sea, and as we surprised them in Haifa, we will surprise them with what's beyond Haifa," Nasrallah said. ... He accused Israel of attacking civilian targets, while insisting that Hezbollah was patient and has aimed its rocket attacks only at the Israeli military. --CNN<

oh sure, they love it, they aren't related to the civilians killed - we keep having these wars wherein more civilians die than military .. how can Hez say what they say? those rockets arent accurate and they know it, they just shoot at a town and hope it hits something .. they consider all soldiers and townsmen the same, all defiling their land, all equal, all targets, even the kids. And almost everyone dying in the IDF attacks, three quarters, are civilians, families ... just like Africa, three quarters or more of all killed are non military. .. and on it goes, round and round >

This does bring up a good question: does Lebanon deserve to have its own sovereignty? a nation so weak as to have no control over it's country, it's lands within borders, its people, as to have a terrorist sect there wielding so much power that they can just build and train at will where they want when they want, backed by a more powerful neighbor Syria, and Little Leb can do nothing about it, so Israel comes up and in; now I don't agree with the wild way Israel is killing civilians, but is there a better solution than they come up? is anyone else gonna stop those rockets ? who else will fight the Hez? Little Leb won't do it, god knows Syria won't, Jordan is not strong enough to fight terrorists outside their own borders, they won't invade Lebanon... who else can do this? UN is not strong enough to fight terrorists, and we sure as heck don't want USA going in anywhere else (enough is enough) ... so what better way is there than this IDF way? if they leave it just goes on, the Hez builds, does terror, "loving it" ...

Edited by offworlder, 16 July 2006 - 02:01 PM.

"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D



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