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World Trade Center Movie

Media Movie World Trade Center 2006

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#161 Rhea

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 09:04 AM

View Postgsmonks, on Aug 14 2006, 05:16 AM, said:

<<Mark: Beauty, and art are subjective, and therefore in the eye of the beholder, g.s.. <<Come on.

If art were truly in the eye of the beholder, Mark, then there would be no art.

Art is universal, and is about communication, therefore it is not just in the eye of the beholder. It is in the eye of its creator and it is in the eye of the beholder.

And what about people who produce art that speaks to no one in their lifetime? That's happened to many great artists.

And there are mediocre artists who believe they're producing "art," that speaks to no one but them. Is is still art?

You and Mark are saying the same thing, you just have to rephrase to make yourself happy.

If art is about communication, it has to find an audience, doesn't it? It can't exist in a vacuum (although I maintain real artists produce because they have no choice, audience or no).

(Taking that snotty tone with the moderators isn't going to win you any friends, particularly since they were speaking to you as well.)

Edited by Rhea, 14 August 2006 - 09:05 AM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#162 gsmonks

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 01:05 PM

View Posttrikay, on Aug 14 2006, 07:59 AM, said:

I might be warned for this but....When the moderator said 'knock it off'  that included YOU...who made a comment  after the fact ALSO. Goes both ways, you know....

Yes, it does. So how do you explain your infantile behaviour after being warned?
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#163 gsmonks

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 01:06 PM

View PostRhea, on Aug 14 2006, 08:04 AM, said:

(Taking that snotty tone with the moderators isn't going to win you any friends, particularly since they were speaking to you as well.)

Yes, and they were speaking to you as well, and here you are, still at it.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#164 gsmonks

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 01:31 PM

I had intended to start off fresh today. New day, clean slate and all that.

Instead, I come here and find people busily pissing in my Cheerios whilst whining about me.

I don't give a rat's arse whether you agree with me or not, but at some point you are going to have to stop attacking me for expressing an opinion, however unpopular.

This reminds me of when I was a kid, when my grandmother would read something political from the paper in the morning.

Things would always deteriorate from there into, "Oh, yeah! People like you only think that because you're idiots!"

Same deal here. No one's actually talking about the subject. They're just looking at ways to get at the person with the dissenting opinion.

And here you are, still at it, doing the very thing you're criticising.


Not that I'm not, but you pissed in my Cheerios so I'm not inclined to be nice and knock it off.

My take on Oliver Stone is that he's something of a malignant narcissist- that is to say, a person who despite their reasonable talk has a purely self-serving agenda. His sole aim is to make money, and as much of it as possible. And he's found that borderline between exploiting paranoia and heightened emotion, and not appearing as though he's exploiting human misery for profit.

As I was pointing out about the critics, Trikay, those who don't like his product seem not to like him. This was an attitude that was prevalent even in several of the positive reviews as well. There's no getting around the fact that Stone himself puts people off. But as usual, you seem to be only able to see what you want to see in what other people write.

Rhea, there are no examples of art that didn't speak to people in their lifetime. It spoke to them all right. They were either offended by the message, or were unable to admit to the truth inherent in the message, or else social conditions were such that the message was unable to penetrate into the mainstream. And sometimes it just took time for the word to get around.

Beethoven's music wasn't wildly popular in his day for the most part. Reports from his day were often completely skewed by his little claque who faithfully turned out for premier performances of his music. Not many people showed up for the debut of his 9th symphony, and there are well-documented cases of people sitting in the audience noting how few people had turned out, and how poorly the 9th symphony was received. Except for Beethoven's faithful claque who clapped enthusiastically at every opportunity.

Today, many people who are fans of this work love to point out that this is an example of how a great artist was able to triumph over all obstacles.

The fact is, however, that the 9th symphony simply isn't very good. It's very popular, but it certainly isn't a hallmark of quality in the annals of music.

So . . . popularity isn't the best indicator that something is "good".

I'm sure this movie will be very popular.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#165 Rhea

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 01:38 PM

And you're still going in a circular argument:

Oliver Stone makes movies that pander to the masses so it can't be art and anyway movies aren't art.

I think he has great talent, I just don't find his use of it to my taste. But I would still not argue that it's not art just because it's not to my taste. You hold Fellini up as a master and I think he was a horny old goat catering to the masses. See the problem?

If art is what causes communication between the artist and the reader, viewer or listener, then art is different for each person.

Kincaide, for instance, doesn't communicate to me. I think he panders to the masses. But how many millions of people own paintings, reproductions and tchochkes with his art on them?  Is he an artist?  You bet your ass not to me, but if other people find meaning and worth in what he does, who am I to say they're wrong. I think his paintings look like one of Walt Disney's characters threw up on them, but that's just me. People who like him see something else.

And THAT is the elitist attitude I don't care for - that you or anybody else gets to decide what art is and dictate that to the rest of us.

(Don't care for Beethoven, by the way - but I prefer the Russians -Rachmaninoff and Tchaikovsky - and Bela Bartok, lots of others - just not Beethoven - I find him generally depressing).

Edited by Rhea, 14 August 2006 - 01:42 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#166 Josh

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 01:39 PM

Quote

(Don't care for Beethoven, by the way - but I prefer the Russians).
*GASP*

(I'd get whiny and pouty but there is where I admit that I don't care for Bach. :p)
"THE UNICORNS ARE NOT TO BE TRIFLED WITH!" - John Burke.

#167 gsmonks

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 01:47 PM

View PostRhea, on Aug 14 2006, 12:38 PM, said:

And you're still going in a circular argument:

Speaking of circular . . . here you come 'round yet again.

I wasn't holding Fellini up as anything. I don't like his work. But his works are generally held up as an example of art. So, once again, you're shooting the messenger.

Edited by gsmonks, 14 August 2006 - 01:49 PM.

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#168 Rhea

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 02:01 PM

View Postgsmonks, on Aug 14 2006, 11:47 AM, said:

View PostRhea, on Aug 14 2006, 12:38 PM, said:

And you're still going in a circular argument:

Speaking of circular . . . here you come 'round yet again.

I wasn't holding Fellini up as anything. I don't like his work. But his works are generally held up as an example of art. So, once again, you're shooting the messenger.

Then express your own opinion, not somebody else's. When it's got your name on it, we assume it's your opinion.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#169 Rhea

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 02:02 PM

View PostJosh, on Aug 14 2006, 11:39 AM, said:

Quote

(Don't care for Beethoven, by the way - but I prefer the Russians).
*GASP*

(I'd get whiny and pouty but there is where I admit that I don't care for Bach. :p)

Me neither. Bach is all mathematical precision and I prefer passion. I *hated* playing Bach - I could never work up any feeling for him, for the most part. I think I liked singing classical better than playing it on the piano, anyway. I mostly sang and acted. Maybe we both did too much Bach as practice pieces. ;)

And even then, some of the classical stuff they have you sing is heartbreakingly beautiful, and much of it is ridiculous. You'd go from something gorgeous like Bartok's "Silver Moonbeams" to something gorgeous like Scarlatti's "O cessate di piagarmi" to something absolutely ludicrous like Schubert's "My Days Have Been So Wondrous Free." Ick. Warbling on about little birdies. :p :p :p And I LOATHED singing Robbie Burns. Rather read his poetry than sing it, thank you.

Edited by Rhea, 14 August 2006 - 02:11 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#170 Chipper

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 02:17 PM

Round and round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows.

And no, I wasn't talking about intelligence.  More about stubborness.

:rolleyes:  

(not about the music -- I personally prefer Beethoven, but then again I hate piano with a passion now...)

That said, art...

Everything is subjective in society.  Sure, you lose something when you try and capitalize on it financially, but in our society, that's the reality.  Unless you've won the lottery and don't care anymore, you need to sacrifice some of your dreams for reality.

Edited by Chipper, 14 August 2006 - 02:18 PM.

"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?"

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#171 waterpanther

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 02:27 PM

Third person here who finds Bach a cold  fish--much prefer Handel.  

Oh, but wait--he did it for money!  He even took commissions for specific occasions!  He must be wothless!   :p
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#172 Rhea

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 02:32 PM

View Postwaterpanther, on Aug 14 2006, 12:27 PM, said:

Third person here who finds Bach a cold  fish--much prefer Handel.  

Oh, but wait--he did it for money!  He even took commissions for specific occasions!  He must be wothless!   :p

Panderer to the masses! Off with his head!!! :p :p
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#173 Nonny

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 03:24 PM

View PostJosh, on Aug 14 2006, 11:39 AM, said:

Quote

(Don't care for Beethoven, by the way - but I prefer the Russians).
*GASP*

(I'd get whiny and pouty but there is where I admit that I don't care for Bach. :p)
I like his alto parts.   :)  

View Postwaterpanther, on Aug 14 2006, 12:27 PM, said:

Third person here who finds Bach a cold  fish--much prefer Handel.  

Oh, but wait--he did it for money!  He even took commissions for specific occasions!  He must be wothless!   :p
:lol:
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#174 Nonny

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 03:27 PM

View PostRhea, on Aug 14 2006, 12:02 PM, said:

And I LOATHED singing Robbie Burns. Rather read his poetry than sing it, thank you.
:eek4:   So probably I shouldn't count on you for a duet of " Ye Banks and Braes"?   :pout:  

:p  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#175 Bobby

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 03:41 PM

View PostRhea, on Aug 14 2006, 02:32 PM, said:

View Postwaterpanther, on Aug 14 2006, 12:27 PM, said:

Third person here who finds Bach a cold  fish--much prefer Handel.  

Oh, but wait--he did it for money!  He even took commissions for specific occasions!  He must be wothless!   :p

Panderer to the masses! Off with his head!!! :p :p

  :devil:  :artist: :shakespeare:  :nono:  :bash:   :whip:   :silenced:  :thumbs-down:  :violin:  :sadwalk:  :giljotiini:  :turn:    :devil1:

#176 Hambil

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 03:44 PM

I like Mannheim Steamroller.

#177 Rhea

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 03:45 PM

View PostNonny, on Aug 14 2006, 01:27 PM, said:

View PostRhea, on Aug 14 2006, 12:02 PM, said:

And I LOATHED singing Robbie Burns. Rather read his poetry than sing it, thank you.
:eek4:   So probably I shouldn't count on you for a duet of " Ye Banks and Braes"?   :pout:  

:p  

Nonny

::Rhea whacks Nonny with a wet noodle::

AGH! Bite your tongue!!! :p :p :p All that spitting and gurgling is too much for me. ;)
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#178 Nonny

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 03:47 PM

But it's a fabulous alto part!   :pout:
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#179 Rhea

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 03:53 PM

View PostNonny, on Aug 14 2006, 01:47 PM, said:

But it's a fabulous alto part!   :pout:

But I'm not an alto!!! I'm a mezzo. You sing it and I'll listen. :p :p :p Oh, maybe one time just for you, but then no more. I hate all that spitting and hacking! :p

Edited by Rhea, 14 August 2006 - 03:55 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#180 Rhea

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 03:59 PM

View PostHambil, on Aug 14 2006, 01:44 PM, said:

I like Mannheim Steamroller.


LOL!  :D
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH



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