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'Airlines terror plot' disrupted

Terrorism UK Scotland Yard 2006 Plot disrupted

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#41 Themis

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 03:41 PM

View PostLyric Z D, on Aug 11 2006, 02:22 PM, said:

Actually, I have a fun story about my violin and planes, too. I was on the ramp leading to the plane...on the ramp!...and some guard ripped my violin case out of my hands, threw it to the ground, and roughly opened it up, taking the violin out straight into the path of people...I hate that guard to this day. He ruined my $400 bow by touching it with his oily fingers. Because horsehair can definitely be used as a weapon, especially if used with pickles.

I'm afraid film may become more and more endangered on flights and I'll have to go digital.  Or FedEx is going to be making a lot of money from me.

(That's it - it's really a terror plot to get everyone to ship everything instead of taking it on passenger flights!!!)

I don't know how photographers who need to fly will have to manage right now in the UK.  Or professional musicians who normally carry guitars.  I know ice skaters can't take skates on board and often ship them.  Frankly, I'd ship that violin!  There are a lot of times when you need to be absolutely sure the tools of your non-violent trade will arrive with you, and those who can't afford FedEx or private planes are going to have lots of problems... I heard someone on the morning news say they flew to Paris and took the Chunnel to London, which was very crowded...  There are boats over the Channel too - but to get from North America to Europe or Asia in less than a week definitely involves flying.  Not to mention across America or Canada in less than 4 days...  Somehow the airlines are going to HAVE to make provisions for people who need the tools of their trade with them... I'd be fine if they were locked up on board and not around my feet as long as I could visually assure myself they were on the same plane I was... But no airline is going to give up seat space to do that...

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#42 Lyric of Delphi

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 03:58 PM

I know I should ship it...but there's so many other things that have to be shipped, and my violin is my baby and if anything happened to it I might die. I obviously can't check it on the plane with me, they don't treat luggage well at all. This basically just sucks. :(

It may be as you say...it's a plot to give shipping companies more business.

I just don't get why they have to blow up/crash/hijack/whatever to airplanes. Why airplanes?

#43 Themis

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 04:15 PM

View PostLyric Z D, on Aug 11 2006, 08:58 PM, said:

I just don't get why they have to blow up/crash/hijack/whatever to airplanes. Why airplanes?

The drama?  

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#44 Lyric of Delphi

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 04:23 PM

I'm just thinking, if I were a terrorist, that's not what I would be terrorizing.

#45 Palisades

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 04:45 PM

View PostLyric Z D, on Aug 11 2006, 03:23 PM, said:

I'm just thinking, if I were a terrorist, that's not what I would be terrorizing.

While terrorist groups have different goals and ideologies, one thing most of them share is the belief that their enemy's civilians are culpable along with the enemy's military and government. By blowing up airplanes bound for the U.S., this terrorist group kills some of its enemy, it makes the news, and it inflicts terror. The terror is presumably intended to cause their enemy to give into their demands or cause the enemy to behave in a self-destructive fashion. Regardless of the condemnable nature of the tactics employed, the terrorists' demands may or may not be reasonable.

Edited by Solar Wind, 11 August 2006 - 04:51 PM.

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#46 Cardie

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 05:07 PM

Airplanes contain lots of people who can't very well get out if something goes wrong.  It is the easiest way to trap hundreds of people and kill them efficiently.  Air travel is also central to business and commerce and all the other things about modernity and the West that the terrorists hate.  Plane crashes are always big news and occupy the airwaves.

For trips of a day or less, I usually drive or take the train.  The only security check-in procedures on Amtrak are when the conductor says "Welcome aboard!" ;)

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#47 tennyson

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 05:30 PM

Quote

The drama?

That is definitely part of it. The orginal airline hijacking were done either to get the plane to go where the person wanted to go or to make some political statement in a dramatic fashion. But in the early days for example the PLO would hijack planes, fly them somewhere, get news teams to come and cover them and then let the passangers go and then they might just stop or maybe just blow  up the empty plane.
Then they discovered they could get more attention if they started killing people on the plane. and it then went from there into the various things Cardie and Solar Wind mentioned to justify just simply blowing up the plane or trying to use it as a missile.
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#48 MuseZack

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 05:48 PM

On one level, this was a scary plot.  The scariest thing-- that apparently, 24 British citizens were willing to become suicide bombers.  

But on another level, it was completely idiotic.  The bigger a conspiracy is, the harder for everyone involved to keep their mouths shut (as apparently happened here.)  And airlines are exactly where Western security agencies are looking for terrorism.  It's the terror equivalent of fighting the last war.

The hypothetical plot that keeps American counterterror authorities up nights is a lot simpler and lower-tech.  Simultaneous suicide bombings of (to pick three examples out of a hat) Mall of America, the Las Vegas strip, and Branson, Missouri could kill as many people and do a hell of a lot more to cripple the consumer spending-driven American economy.

That we haven't seen something like that since 2001 is primarily for two reasons-- tighter travel restrictions and the fact that for all of our faults, the United States has done a much better job than Europe of making Muslim immigrants feel welcome.  The United States simply doesn't have the large numbers of angry, unassimilated young Muslim men that Britain and France do.   America's real best defense against terrorism has been the patriotism of American Muslims, and it's something to be proud of.  In retrospect, Bush's post September 11th visit to a mosque was probably the single best thing he's ever done to fight terrorism.
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#49 Delvo

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 06:03 PM

View PostCardie, on Aug 11 2006, 06:07 PM, said:

Airplanes contain lots of people who can't very well get out if something goes wrong.
...which they coincidentally have in common with large skyscrapers/towers.

#50 Norville

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 10:36 PM

Hambil said:

How about seperate planes for non-white people?

I'm sure that this is sarcasm about the unfairness of racial profiling, and I'd agree, but isn't it unfortunate when the racial profiling actually turns out to be necessary?

Anyway, perhaps we should outlaw air travel entirely until we can get people not to blow up planes or use them as weapons... (Yeah, that's really likely. Oh well.)

Lyric Z D said:

I know I should ship it...but there's so many other things that have to be shipped, and my violin is my baby and if anything happened to it I might die.

I understand that so completely, it's scary; I used to play violin and protected that instrument like a mother bear. It's still in my possession, though I haven't been playing it lately, but yeah... it wouldn't take much to cause that feeling to recur.

Cardie said:

business and commerce and all the other things about modernity and the West that the terrorists hate.

I'm amused that a suprising number of these "modernity-hating" terrorists are rather clever in their use of the Internet. "I hate modernity, but don't take away my computer!" ;)
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#51 Raina

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 04:48 AM

View PostShaun, on Aug 11 2006, 04:43 AM, said:

The rules are affecting pilots as well - they're not being allowed to bring on board their safety and aircraft operations manuals and have to carry their documents in clear bags.
Really?

But if a pilot wanted to bring down a plane, they wouldn't need bomb-making materials. Unless the plane's got sophisticated enough systems to prevent a pilot from pointing it at the ground.

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#52 Anastashia

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 06:53 AM

Plus not having access to their manuals could very well negatively affect their ability to react in a crisis situation.
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#53 QueenTiye

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 02:12 PM

View PostHambil, on Aug 10 2006, 06:07 PM, said:

View PostThemis, on Aug 10 2006, 03:05 PM, said:

I've always contended that the only answer is to replace stewardi with anesthethists and nurses and put every passenger to sleep.  

Themis
How about seperate planes for non-white people?

Presumably, this is a joke, and somehow related to Themis's, but I didn't get it. :(

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#54 Palisades

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 02:33 PM

View PostHambil, on Aug 10 2006, 12:55 PM, said:

Quote

U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said the plans were "suggestive of an al Qaeda plot," and President Bush said the arrests are a "stark reminder" that the U.S. is "at war with Islamic fascists."

Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Well, America's moderate Muslims do know what "fascism" means. And they're pissed.

Edited by Solar Wind, 12 August 2006 - 02:39 PM.

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#55 Tricia

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 03:53 PM

^^^

I imagined they would be as I found that usage to be offensive and I am not Muslim.

I have to admit that I found myself questioning whether he read it wrong as he has a tendency to do and meant "fanaticism"  (defined as Excessive, irrational zeal).....or

But his continued use of it makes me believe that is exactly the word he meant to say.

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#56 Shaun

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 07:52 PM

View PostRaina, on Aug 12 2006, 10:48 AM, said:

View PostShaun, on Aug 11 2006, 04:43 AM, said:

The rules are affecting pilots as well - they're not being allowed to bring on board their safety and aircraft operations manuals and have to carry their documents in clear bags.
Really?



Really. There was a pilot having a good rant on the news about it. They're not allowed to bring onboard any liquids either - however some pilots are armed and they're still being allowed to carry their weapons. As you say if a pilot wanted to bring a plane down they'd hardly need to use a weapon in any case.
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#57 Raina

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 12:59 AM

^
*scratches head*
Wow I wonder whose brilliant idea that was.

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#58 scherzo

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 03:45 AM

Quote

Well, America's moderate Muslims do know what "fascism" means. And they're pissed.
Of course they are. It's the emotion they spend the most time cultivating. You'd think they could direct a LITTLE of that anger towards coordinated mass murder in the name of their religion, but as usual a perceived slight against Islam is the only way to get the juices going.  

As for the word "fascist", while most lazy leftists have convinced themselves it's nothing more than a sinister sounding shorthand for "conservative", it's actually a far more appropriate way to describe radical Islam. I suspect Bush, like everyone else has always been able to identify the problem. I consider it a good sign he's now willing to say what it is.

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#59 Godeskian

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 03:52 AM

View Postscherzo, on Aug 14 2006, 09:45 AM, said:

Of course they are. It's the emotion they spend the most time cultivating. You'd think they could direct a LITTLE of that anger towards coordinated mass murder in the name of their religion, but as usual a perceived slight against Islam is the only way to get the juices going.

In that Muslims are hardly unique. No religion likes to be judged by it's dingbat members, and Pat Roberts is no more the final word on Christianity than Osama Bin Laden is on Islam. And I'll note that none of the major religions do a very good job of keeping their own houses in order.

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#60 Palisades

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 04:31 AM

View Postscherzo, on Aug 14 2006, 02:45 AM, said:

Quote

Well, America's moderate Muslims do know what "fascism" means. And they're pissed.
Of course they are. It's the emotion they spend the most time cultivating.
Having known some moderate Muslims, I have to disagree. They seemed quite well-balanced and mellow.


Quote

You'd think they could direct a LITTLE of that anger towards coordinated mass murder in the name of their religion, but as usual a perceived slight against Islam is the only way to get the juices going.
Actually, it was moderate Muslims who tipped officials off to the liquid-explosives plot.

While Bush and the neoconservatives may not be fascists, they share some traits:
- Demagoguery
- Exploiting disaster and fear
- Usurpations of individuals' freedoms by the State
- Expansion of governmental powers
- Transference of Congressional Powers to the Executive
- Ultra-nationalism
- Promising some sort of great rebirth (i.e. in the Middle East)
- Reliance on aggressive military force to achieve goals

Edited by Solar Wind, 14 August 2006 - 04:43 AM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

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