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'Airlines terror plot' disrupted

Terrorism UK Scotland Yard 2006 Plot disrupted

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#81 Rhea

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 11:55 AM

View Postscherzo, on Aug 14 2006, 06:18 AM, said:

Quote

please tell me you are joking.
OK I'm joking. :)

But I'm not though. :(

Well above 90% IS practically ALL...really. You're going to have to trust me on this, because honestly...it can't be "proven".  :eh:

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And note, that having asked you to specifically clarify the intent of your posts, you've failed to do so, instead repeating a statement for which you've offered no evidence.
Clarify the intent? Uh Godeskian, I believe you were the one who made the grandstanding pledge to reduce my claim about who "practically all" terrorists are to rubble. I was anxiously waiting for it, but you seem to believe you've already made it happen.

Uh ok. :rolleyes:

You introduced the remarkable revelation that other terror groups do indeed exist, when my use of the word "practically" already indicated as much. Your mission was to prove these other terror group's numbers(and by extension their death tally) reduces to rubble my theory that 90+% of terrorists are Muslim. You haven't done so, and what's really disappointing is, you didn't really seem to try all that hard.  No soup for you.

-scherzo


Already been done. You missed it while you came up with your false and unprovable 90%.

And you have yet to offer any proof for your 90% because it's untrue.

Edited by Rhea, 14 August 2006 - 11:56 AM.

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#82 offworlder

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 01:51 PM

wow there's so much in here one'll forget a couple trying to reply! ;) - first, Bush said Islamic fascists because the right wing press he listens to say islamofascists every week, been hearing the radio?? he just buys into what they say, so he regurgitating that phrase, it's not about all Islamics, it's about those particular extremist ones who'r bombing and they're against democracy and free choice.

Two, Islamic moderates: it's true that most muslems are not in the terrorists, but it's also true that some, some support those groups; not join, not in those groups, not doing terrorist actions, but feel, hearts together, support those groups, believe they believe the right things; and contribute funds, smaller amounts than the real funders, but still, like if you're a normal Lebanese trying to make a living on the street and you support Hezbolah, not in it but support it, because you think they're the only ones not against you, supporting you, your second cousin or uncle is in it, so you like what they do even if you don't join in, but maybe you give them the only forty bucks you can afford, and you wave to them as they go by, and you tell the press you support Hezbolah because they are for you and not against you like the Israel and west seem to be. And there are some moderate muslems in US and Can and UK and europe who feel the same, not in it but support them.

Three, it may not be that almost all terrorists are Muslem but I big part are: I don't believe the Tamils are, havent read up on them but I think they are not, and those ETA or whatever, the Basque terror group in Spain, freedom fighters, they're not Muslem, and the Irish, well goes without saying, them what bombed in Belfast and London et al ... and those kidnapper terrorists in Columbia and Peru and places around there, Guatamala, they're not muslem. - But the ones in Philippinnes and Indonesia mostly are, the ones up in northern India and Pakistan are, the ones in Africa mostly are, the ones in southwest asia, well goes without saying, and the Chechens are though that's as much for freedom as it is for Islam; and most of the ones in europe are ..... and so a great many, most of the active terrorists in the world are muslem.

Actually, if the US and EU and 'the west' didn't support Israel against the righteous oppressed arab muslem palestinians ;) , and if they didn't support the greedy corrupt 'secular' powers of muslem countries with the biz deals, like that Saudi fam, supported instead the Islamic and mullah leaders and groups over there: there would be much less or no terrorist acts against US UK and EU. they mainly think WE 'came over' there and oppressed them, against them, using them, so hey, surprised at their reactions?

:harper:
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#83 tennyson

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 02:22 PM

I think the term fascist does apply when applied to Al-Queda at least, here are the definitions that have been used
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

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Merriam-Webster defines fascism as "a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"[1].

A recent definition is that by Robert O. Paxton:

        * "Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." [2]

Mussolini defined fascism as being a right-wing collectivistic ideology in opposition to socialism, liberalism, democracy and individualism. He said in The Political and Social Doctrine of Fascism:

        * "Granted that the 19th century was the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy, this does not mean that the 20th century must also be the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy. Political doctrines pass; nations remain. We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the 'right', a Fascist century. If the 19th century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the 'collective' century, and therefore
the century of the State." [1]

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Fascism is associated by many scholars with one or more of the following characteristics: a very high degree of nationalism, economic corporatism, a powerful, dictatorial leader who portrays the nation, state or collective as superior to the individuals or groups composing it.

Stanley Payne's Fascism: Comparison and Definition (1980) uses a lengthy itemized list of characteristics to identify fascism, including the creation of an authoritarian state; a regulated, state-integrated economic sector; fascist symbolism; anti-liberalism; anti-communism [3]. A similar strategy was employed by semiotician Umberto Eco in his popular essay Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt[4]. More recently, an emphasis has been placed upon the aspect of populist fascist rhetoric that argues for a "re-birth" of a conflated nation and ethnic people[5].

Most scholars hold that fascism as a social movement employs elements from the political left, but many conclude that fascism eventually allies with the political right, especially after attaining state power. This is even more complicated when discussing Nazism, which as a socio-political movement began as a form of National Socialism, but altered its character once Hitler was handed state power in Germany. See: Fascism and ideology.

Fascism has expressed itself through both political and economic practices, and academics have examined these elements both together and in isolation. Hannah Arendt, whose focus is largely political, argues that regimes commonly thought of as fascist, such as Nazism, belong to a larger category of totalitarianisms [6]. Thayer Watkins, a professor of Economics from San José State University, identifies fascism as aligned with corporatism, a form of economic oppression that he argues includes most of the world's governments[7]. Watkins, who some accuse of being out of step with the academic mainstream, considers Mussolini's Fascist regime to be merely one example of the corporatist states that emerged during the Great Depression, including such diverse political systems as that of Spain, Argentina and the United States. See Fascism and ideology and Economics of fascism.

After the defeat of Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany in World War II, the term has taken on an extremely pejorative meaning, largely in reaction to the crimes against humanity committed by the Nazis. Today, very few groups proclaim themselves fascist, and the term is often used to describe individuals or political groups who are perceived to behave in an authoritarian or totalitarian manner; by silencing opposition, judging personal behavior, promoting racism, or otherwise attempting to concentrate power and create hate towards the "enemies of the state". Because of the term's use as a pejorative, there is a great deal of controversy surrounding the question of what political movements and governments belong to fascism.

Al-Queda believes that a corporate entity, the Muslim world is in decline and needs to bring about an internal cleansing of the elements they define as "nonIslamic". It believes in the resestablishment of the Caliphate, where one man rules with all political and religous authority, thus making it an authoritarian movement with the goal of collecting all state power into one person. Thier values completely reject the Enlightenment project, deomcracy and the enfranchisment project of giving more power to every segment of the population that has characterized Western democracries over the last few centuries. Add to this the direct connection between previous fascist organizations and previous Muslim authoritiarian organizations that would eventually provide recruits for Al-Queda and I think fascist does serve as a good description for the stated end goals of Al-Queda.  As for other Muslim groups that use terrorism that remains to be determined.
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#84 scherzo

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 01:10 AM

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hoo boy. You aren't a statistician are you Sherzo, or have had any in depth statistical training?
Nope...not a statistician. I'm relying on common sense, and a basic grasp of elementary school level English and math. And in point of fact, confusing "practically all" with "all" should be embarrassing even for a 4th grader.  :Oo:      

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Because the notion that an undetermined number above an arbitrary percentage is 'practically all' is about as vague as it gets.

Well above could be anything from .01% to 9.99% in this context, and still without any evidence to support it.
This is completely ridiculous. I have no idea what you're complaining about, unless I'm witnessing the launch of some weird unilateral campaign against the use of  imprecise words like "practically", "nearly", approximately"...when identifying murderers. Since when did trivial nonsense like "Well above could be anything from .01% to 9.99%"...become a worthy substitute for an actual counterpoint?  :Oo:

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Actually, as it turned out I didn't have to do anything for that. You've steadfastedly refused to provide any evidence for your above 90% claim while still claiming it as fact. You're the one who claimed 'practically all' terrorists to be Muslims, then claimed that the actuall figure was well above 90% and yet you can't provide any evidence for that assertion.

So just as you can claim it's above 90% without providing evidence I can claim it's below 90% without evidence. (there is plenty of evidence despite the fact that major terrrorist organisations don't exactly have a list of members publicly available)
This is getting surreal. I feel a "based on true events" script bubbling to the surface:
scherzo: practically all terrorists are Muslim.

Godeskian: I'll smash that claim to rubble when I get home!
*flexes*

scherzo: drive carefully.

Later that day:
Godeskian: Alright tough guy, I went home and got googly on yo azz. Turns out the West Carbombian Spitball Alliance has been devastating the local Middle Schools with unhygienic nastiness. An enormous supply of tissue was recently intercepted on it's way from Syria. What do you have to say to that Sherzo?

scherzo: uh...well...I mean I never said there weren't other kinds of terrorists. I realize th...

Godeskian: No way! You're still insisting all terrorists are Muslim? I can't believe my eye!

scherzo: not ALL...but probably above 90%

Godeskian: you said "practically all" before. Now you're changing your story?

scherzo: uh no...just saying it another wa....

Godeskian: Where's the evidence? You've offered no PROOF of these wildly politically incorrect claims young man!

scherzo: You didn't ask for any. And how do you keep managing to interrupt me on a message board?

Godeskian: Yes I know I said I'd reduce your argument to rubble. But after further reflection, and a fruitless hour on CAIR's website, I realized I should have just asked YOU to prove yourself right.  

Rhea: Maaaaatt Damon.


:rolleyes: Y'know Godeskian you could ask me why I believe practically all terrorists are Muslim, without acting like no "statistical evidence" was your premise all along. Simply declaring your case closed based on MY lack of proof, bears a striking resemblance to RETREAT, when the original idea was to disprove what I said all by your lonesome.

-scherzo
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#85 Godeskian

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 01:39 AM

View Postscherzo, on Aug 15 2006, 07:10 AM, said:

I have no idea what you're complaining about, unless I'm witnessing the launch of some weird unilateral campaign against the use of  imprecise words like "practically", "nearly", approximately"...when identifying murderers.

And herein lies the problem. You genuinely don't get it. Whenever people throw out broad and nonspecific claims like 'practically all' and 'well above 90%' I get nervous. Because people who do that tend not to have any real evidence to back up their claims. They want you to accept what they are saying as valid without such evidence.

It's a basically dishonest way of debating, because as soon as someone actually demands the evidence (as i've repeatedly done, and you've repeatedly refused to provide) suddenly the debate is shifted from the original claim that 'practically all terrorists are Muslims' to 'can't you read properly' in an obvious attempt to change the topic.

It won't work. Insult me all you wish, and I will still demand that you either provide evidence and definition for your claim that 'practically all', or admit that you have absolutely no factual basis for it

And if there is one thing I truly hate in this world it's people who throw out percentages as facts without supporting evidence, and then begin with the petty insults to cover that lack of evidence.

Quote

Simply declaring your case closed based on MY lack of proof, bears a striking resemblance to RETREAT, when the original idea was to disprove what I said all by your lonesome.

Hardly. You make a claim, I point out that you've refused consistently to provide evidence in support of that claim and I'm in retreat?

You are the one who has been throwing out percentages and claims without evidence, and i've been pointing that out.

You are the one who has refused to clarify, despite my repeatedly asking you to, what exactly you mean by your vague and indistinct phrases.

You are the one who has tried to change the subject from your claim to insults about my ability to read and interpret data.

A claim without evidence is an opinion, not a fact as you would have people believe. And the fact is that for two pages now you have refused to provide any evidence whatsoever.

Come now Sherzo, you've spent two pages complaining about all those Muslim terrorists, surely you have some evidence to back it up.

Edited by Godeskian, 15 August 2006 - 01:40 AM.

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#86 tennyson

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 01:43 AM

Not meaning to but in but it kind of being my job,would a terrorist group census or link to the US State department's official terrorist organization list help?
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#87 Godeskian

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 01:44 AM

View Posttennyson, on Aug 15 2006, 07:43 AM, said:

Not meaning to but in but it kind of being my job,would a terrorist group census or link to the US State department's official terrorist organization list help?

Doubtfull, I already mentioned lists like that a few posts back but it was cheerfully ignored.

Edited by Godeskian, 15 August 2006 - 01:45 AM.

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#88 scherzo

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 03:54 AM

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Come now Sherzo, you've spent two pages complaining about all those Muslim terrorists, surely you have some evidence to back it up.
To be completely honest with you Godeskian, I'm confused as to how anyone even paying casual attention to current events could even see this as a debatable point. You want evidence...turn on the news...read TIME, NEWSWEEK...take your pick...then explain where and how these "other" terror groups are keeping par with radical Islam's reign of terror.(the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka will have to step it up considerably)  Pick ANY month of ANY year, and simply take a look at what's happening in the name of Islam. We're 15 days into August 2006...lets see what I managed to find in about 15 minutes:

UK bomb suspect is a football fan, devout Muslim
AFP
Friday, August 11, 2006  16:49 IST
http://www.dnaindia....?NewsID=1046677

Kidnap Gang in S. Philippines Behead Captive
Al Jacinto, Arab News
http://www.arabnews....o...;m=8&y=2006

Mackinac Bridge; Alleged Target Of Terror
Aug 14, 2006 12:08 PM
http://www.wnem.com/...y.asp?S=5269589

Three of Hindu family killed
Associated Press
Friday , August 11, 2006 at 1707 hours IST
http://www.kashmirli...?...286&type=ei

Survey reveals backing for 7/7 attacks
8.36, Mon Aug 7 2006
http://www.itv.com/n...26156668c7.html

I gave myself 15 minutes for 15 August days,(pretty much the absolute limit of effort I'll ever put into a mostly useless debate like this one) so it's fairly slim pickings compared to what a truly dedicated search would turn up. But I assure you it would be child's play to find crimes of Islamic militants documented in stories on the web and elsewhere DAILY. All that being said, I've really seen no concerted effort to convince me my pov is wrong. Your best move might be to blow off the fact that the perpetrators of these crimes are Muslim at all. Call them "youths" or "British Nationals" or something equally misleading.

-scherzo
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#89 Godeskian

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 04:28 AM

View Postscherzo, on Aug 15 2006, 09:54 AM, said:

To be completely honest with you Godeskian, I'm confused as to how anyone even paying casual attention to current events could even see this as a debatable point.

Mostly because I get my news from more than one perspective. Time, Newsweek, most national newschannels only offer a single view, even if they differ in the interpretation of that view. There is vastly more happening in the world, vastly more terror being comitted than that which makes it onto a 30 minute national news segment.

I'm not so blinkered as to assume that because Muslim terrorists are the hot topic at the moment, and that they have achieved the spectacular and messy results they have, that they are the sole perpetrators of terrorist violence.

To me, and frankly to any thinking person, there is no difference between a terrorist who kills three people, and a terrorist who kills three thousand, because ultimately all we're talking about is scale, not intent. It is still the intent to murder civilians to achieve an agenda, be it political, religious or economic.

Muslims may make up the majority of terrorists, but even that is doubtful given the sheer number of non-muslim terrorist organisations in the world. What is certain, is that results notwithstanding, they certainly don't comprise 'practically all,' 'almost all', 'well over 90%' or whatever indistinct claim you are making now  of all terrorists world-wide.

If one wants to solely talk about how effective they are compared to other groups then I suppose that's a different matter, but then that wasn't what you said in your opening post.

And frankly your continued obfuscations are beginning to bore me. I'll grant you that of the five articles you presented 4 appear to be directly relating to Muslim terrorists, but that doesn't prove in and of itself that 90% or more of all terrorists, or even 90% or more of all terrorist acts are comitted by Muslims. The plural of anecdote is not data.

So in light of your continued refusal to present evidence for your preposterous claim that 90% or more of the worlds terrorists are Muslims, I'm strongly considering leaving the discussion because of it.. You'll no doubt claim that as a 'retreat' on my part, while heroically continuing to refuse to provide evidence for your claim, and demanding that others do your legwork.

Well, if that's the tack you want to take, feel free. It will remain as unconvincing an argument as it was the first time.

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#90 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 08:38 AM

I’d like to remind everyone at this time to keep the topic of conversation on the arguments being presented and not on the people who are presenting them.  Please do not belittle, dismiss, or mock your fellow posters because they happen to disagree with you.

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You know if I had a couple spare million this would be the perfect time to buy up the SS United States and start transatlantic service again for those people who want to avoid the hassle of flying. ;)  

In all seriousness though as Zack stated this bomb plot is pretty scary.  The one thing that puts me a little at ease is these liquid explosives are pretty exotic.  I have a feeling cooking them up, smuggling them in, and getting them to actually work without blowing yourself up before you get to the airport might be harder than the media makes it sound. The scary thing about it though is I doubt that bomb dogs are trained to sniff for the type of components that we are talking about in these cases.
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#91 scherzo

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 01:33 PM

Quote

Mostly because I get my news from more than one perspective. Time, Newsweek, most national newschannels only offer a single view, even if they differ in the interpretation of that view. There is vastly more happening in the world, vastly more terror being comitted than that which makes it onto a 30 minute national news segment.

I'm not so blinkered as to assume that because Muslim terrorists are the hot topic at the moment, and that they have achieved the spectacular and messy results they have, that they are the sole perpetrators of terrorist violence.
Surely one could be forgiven for getting that impression under the circumstances. Maybe you could table your outrage long enough, to present information compelling enough to dissuade me from this theory. Tell me why I should believe as you do.

Getting "news" from more than one perspective is admirable, and you'll note not one of the links I posted earlier are from Time or Newsweek. If there's "vastly more terror being committed" by non-Muslim groups, it shouldn't be all that hard to give some weight to your argument. I'll say it again: explain where and how these "other" terror groups are keeping par with radical Islam. What are they doing...where are they doing it...how many people have they killed?

A year ago Abdel Rahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al- Arabiya news channel wrote the following essay.(click the link to read in it's entirety) He's a Saudi national, with an unfailing grasp of the obvious:
http://www.arabnews....ticle=32&part=2  

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It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims.

The hostage-takers of children in Beslan, North Ossetia, were Muslims. The other hostage-takers and subsequent murderers of the Nepalese chefs and workers in Iraq were also Muslims. Those involved in rape and murder in Darfur, Sudan, are Muslims, with other Muslims chosen to be their victims.

Those responsible for the attacks on residential towers in Riyadh and Khobar were Muslims. The two women who crashed two airliners last week were also Muslims.

Osama bin Laden is a Muslim. The majority of those who manned the suicide bombings against buses, vehicles, schools, houses and buildings, all over the world, were Muslim.

What a pathetic record. What an abominable "achievement." Does all this tell us anything about ourselves, our societies and our culture?

These images, when put together or taken separately, are shameful and degrading. But let us start with putting an end to a history of denial. Let us acknowledge their reality, instead of denying them and seeking to justify them with sound and fury signifying nothing.

For it would be easy to cure ourselves if we realize the seriousness of our sickness. Self-cure starts with self-realization and confession. We should then run after our terrorist sons, in the full knowledge that they are the sour grapes of a deformed culture.
-scherzo
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#92 Julianus

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 03:25 PM

Hi Scherzo,
thanks for the link to Jihad du Jour.
Julianus

#93 Palisades

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 03:42 PM

View Postscherzo, on Aug 15 2006, 12:33 PM, said:

A year ago Abdel Rahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al- Arabiya news channel wrote the following essay.(click the link to read in it's entirety) He's a Saudi national, with an unfailing grasp of the obvious:
http://www.arabnews....ticle=32&part=2  

Quote

It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims.

<snip>

For it would be easy to cure ourselves if we realize the seriousness of our sickness. Self-cure starts with self-realization and confession. We should then run after our terrorist sons, in the full knowledge that they are the sour grapes of a deformed culture.

Abdel Rahman al-Rashed's willingness to criticize his religion and culture is commendable; however, he's being overly hard on them. Most terrorists aren't Muslim. Here is Wikipedia's list of terrorist organizations. There are a fair number of Muslim terrorist organizations, but well over half of the terrorist organizations listed are not classified as Muslim.

Edited by Solar Wind, 15 August 2006 - 03:53 PM.

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#94 Shalamar

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 03:47 PM

I have to agree that most terrorist organizations aout there are not Muslim.

However no one can deny that those that are, are in the news these days - and that I think is where the perception that most terrorists are muslims comes from

Plus the added psycho drama of their tendency to kill people messily on veido tape.

So while perception wise, and known activity wise, they do seem to be the sole, or nearly sole fount of terrorism, they simply, in fact and mostly ignored evidence, are not the only terrorists out there - not by a long shot.
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#95 MuseZack

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 04:40 PM

There are some very nasty groups out there who use extreme interpretations of Islam to justify horrifying violence against civilians.  Some of these groups consider themselves to be at war with the United States, for a variety of reasons, and are trying very hard to hurt and kill Americans in large numbers.  All of those things are a given.

So what's the most effective way of preventing them from committing violence against innocent civilians?  Tarring the 1 billion plus Muslims with the same broad brush doesn't seem like a very productive way to do it.  The British airline plot was foiled by a concerned member of the Muslim community tipping off the authorities.  Making all Muslims feel unwelcome in the West and tarring them as the practitioners of a barbaric religion-- as the website scherzo links to does-- doesn't seem like a very effective way to encourage more tipsters to come forward.  

It's bizarre to me that the Little Green Footballers of the world freak out when George Bush visits a mosque or says a kind word about Islam, when those are the things that have been most effective in keeping Muslims in America from feeling disenfranchised and alienated from the American mainstream the way many of their European counterparts do.  

A lot of Muslims realize that their religion has a problem with its own fanatics.  It would seem a lot more useful to support and encourage them rather than to paint an entire religion as inherently evil.

And don't even get me started on racial profiling of Muslims.  Profiling wouldn't have caught shoe bomber Richard Reid-- a half English, half Jamaican convert to Islam.  Nor would it have nabbed Jose Padilla.  Native born Muslims come in all ethnicities, from black Africans to Chinese Uighurs to southeast Asians to European Bosnians and Albanians.  And a lot of Levantine Muslims could easily pass as European.
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We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
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#96 Bobby

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 04:53 PM

John Walker Lindh was white wasn't he?  I remember watching a documentary a few years ago about an Australian guy who had converted to Islam and was being held in as a prisoner.  So even if they did decide to go with the all "non white's" on seperate planes thing that was joked about, it wouldn't work.

And I think the Columbine kids qualify as terrorists, so does that guy who went into a gay night club with a hatchet a few months ago.  Strangley, he wasn't Muslim, just racist...


Edited to add: http://www.sfgate.co...MNGR1H3GI61.DTL

And let's not forget Eric Rudolph's take on "love thy neighbor":

http://www.adl.org/e...ackgrounder.asp

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Rudolph has had connections since childhood to a number of anti-Semitic, racist and anti-government movements or groups, especially Christian Identity, a virulently anti-Semitic "religious" sect that preaches that Jews are descended from Satan and that God made non-whites inferior to whites, who were made, "in his image." Identity believers are also fiercely opposed to race-mixing, abortion and homosexuality. While Rudolph frequently espoused these views, he never officially joined the ranks of the hate groups he followed, and is believed to have acted alone in the bombings he is accused of committing.

Edited by Life for Rent, 15 August 2006 - 05:45 PM.


#97 scherzo

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 12:24 AM

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Hi Scherzo,
thanks for the link to Jihad du Jour.
Julianus
Ave Julianus.

The pleasure was all mine. :)

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So what's the most effective way of preventing them from committing violence against innocent civilians? Tarring the 1 billion plus Muslims with the same broad brush doesn't seem like a very productive way to do it. The British airline plot was foiled by a concerned member of the Muslim community tipping off the authorities. Making all Muslims feel unwelcome in the West and tarring them as the practitioners of a barbaric religion-- as the website scherzo links to does-- doesn't seem like a very effective way to encourage more tipsters to come forward.
I get your point, but this really isn't about tarring a group of people. What we need is at the very least, a willingness to be honest in identifying the problem. You're asking that we basically ignore the common thread fueling an incredible amount barbarism and repression. I'm personally not prepared to do that, and I PRAY our government won't either.

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It's bizarre to me that the Little Green Footballers of the world freak out when George Bush visits a mosque or says a kind word about Islam, when those are the things that have been most effective in keeping Muslims in America from feeling disenfranchised and alienated from the American mainstream the way many of their European counterparts do.
Maybe under the circumstances the pressure should be on Muslim's to worry about alienating Americans. If recent marches in support of Hezbollah are any indication, our Muslim populace feels less
disenfranchisement than entitlement. How do you actively alienate people from a mainstream they already want no part of?

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A lot of Muslims realize that their religion has a problem with its own fanatics. It would seem a lot more useful to support and encourage them rather than to paint an entire religion as inherently evil.
I'll make it official...Abdel Rahman al-Rashed has my full support. :)

As for Muslims? Well, they hardly need MY support as they have the distinction of being the ONE major religion...liberals instinctively jump to the defense of. The enemy of my enemy as they say... :whistle:

-scherzo
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
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#98 Palisades

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 08:26 AM

View Postscherzo, on Aug 15 2006, 11:24 PM, said:

I get your point, but this really isn't about tarring a group of people. What we need is at the very least, a willingness to be honest in identifying the problem.
Cool. So let's all take a good, hard, long look at our government's (the U.S.'s) long history of misbegotten foreign policies in the Middle East.

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You're asking that we basically ignore the common thread fueling an incredible amount barbarism and repression.
You might want to take another look at our own society. We have one of the most violent societies in the Western world, and we could give many in the non-Western world a run for their money. We have schoolchildren mowing down their classmates.

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Maybe under the circumstances the pressure should be on Muslim's to worry about alienating Americans.
The Muslims in the Middle East have concluded that at best we don't care about them and at worst we're against them so they're not going to change their behavior just because it hurts your feelings. (BTW, I love how you've ignored the Muslims who ARE Americans.)

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If recent marches in support of Hezbollah are any indication, our Muslim populace feels less disenfranchisement than entitlement.
Newsflash: Well, considering what we've done to Iraq and considering that our government has said that the devastation and suffering in Lebanon are the "birth pangs" of a New Middle East... How do you think Americans would react if a foreign government said something like that about the twin towers?

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How do you actively alienate people from a mainstream they already want no part of?
The Muslim Americans would like to be welcomed as a valued part of American society. As for how to further alienate those in the Middle East: watch Bush. He and his Administration are masters of getting people who already hate us to hate us even more.

Edited by Solar Wind, 16 August 2006 - 09:22 AM.

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#99 offworlder

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 11:17 PM

Update: now they're saying the head plotter on this UK airline liquid thing is: a son in law of Zawahri the big al Qaeda cahuna ............ http://www.ctv.ca/se...hub=CTVNewsAt11

This does bring up two big issues though: that part in there about them all hiding up in the Pak/Afg border .......... I'm still wondering, with all the resources, no matter how big and rough the area is, in today's modern time, why can't they get enough men, and casholo, and infiltration, and treachery, and bribery, and catch those guys? that part they say Zawahri is up there, and we still think bin Ladin is up there : why is 'up there' soooooooooo 'bad'?! is Mushareff on the take r what? with the USA and UK and Can and Pak battalions and prolly even 'mountain goat corps' they have rummaging around, why can't they after all this time and money root out something, someone, get to the meat of it, the very heart of it .......... the 'heart of darkness' ?? ................. I got it!! yeah : we need The Great Game up there, like in the 1880s, spies and Kipling's Kim, and bearded surveyors and all that :D

And the other one- this Pak network of expats and inpats too, people flow and casholo flow all around the world ....... and some o these are in your province or county in UK or USA or Austr or Can ...... but: plenty of ordinary Pak fams working and living in those places too ........ are they affected by this? anyone look at them funny, readin in papers all around of these Pak networks linked with al Qaeda so we give some fam the evil eye? hhhmmm , jus wondrin ;)
"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#100 SparkyCola

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 08:17 PM

I'm afraid I'm too tired to read all this through, and having skim read Scherzo and Gode's little 90% or otherwise argument I can't say i've learnt much lol.

I just wanted to say that it's notable, I think (and forgive me if it's been said already), that just the threat of terrorism, a tip-off, a word in someone's ear, is enough to cause pandemonium (sp?) in all our airports, cause yet further strife between communities and stress out our people.

Next time they might never intend to do any such attack, just a tip-off- when no one gets caught in connection they can cause more fear by the implication that they are 'still at large'.

Sparky
Able to entertain a thought without taking it home to meet the parents



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Terrorism, UK, Scotland Yard, 2006, Plot disrupted

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