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Jews and the death of Jesus

Religion Christanity Hate of Jews Death of Christ

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#1 Hambil

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:13 PM

Believe it or not, I only heard that Christian hate of the Jews was routed in the death of Jesus maybe a decade or so ago, despite being raised in a Baptist church. Either they didn't teach it that way, or I missed the message.

I find the hate curious though, for a number of reason.

First, how can you blame ALL Jews for this? Surely that could have been the case.

Second, according to the bible Jesus was *supposed* to die for our sins. It was a good thing. So the Jews where setup by an all powerful all knowing God and really had no choice - in fact they did him a favor.

#2 ArdenCabbel

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:20 PM

I come from a southern baptist church.  I have heard nothing of our members hating the Jews.  I think the problem is with that mass generalization.

As a matter of fact the southern baptist churches I have attended hold the Jews in high regard.

Oh and we all are the cause of the death of Jesus.  'For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.'

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly" - Romans 5:6

While in that verse the term 'ungodly' refers to all of us, the literal application could mean everyone but the Jews (God's chosen people, thus the 'godly').
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#3 Tricia

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:25 PM

Possibly the reason you only heard about this about ten years ago or so was because not all people feel that way.  

I can't speak with any true authority on this subject as this supposed hatred is something I seldom hear mentioned---except say, when someone like drunk Mel Gibson spouts off.

So i can not say how prevalent this hatred is or not. But I think it is a minority opinion and unfortunately those who hate tend to speak or yell the loudest.

Explaining people's prejudices is not easy...some of it comes from what they are taught as children.

You can truly rationally not blame a whole group for the actions of the few....that's like blaming all Americans for the actions of those 5 American soldiers  who raped and murdered that young girl and killed her family.

But that said you will  always have some group of people make a few individuals the representative whole of a country, religion or race and blame all the sins of those few upon the many.  

It's not rational but....

Edited by trikay, 16 August 2006 - 06:27 PM.

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#4 Shoshana

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:41 PM

Unfortunately, I heard it alot growing up. All through school - from first grade until senior year of high school.

At least by high school I was no longer being asked where my horns were ... or to take my shoes off so someone could check for cloven hooves...

But even in college I was still surprised when someone would say "I never met a Jew before!" Like I was a Martian or something. Or friends introducing me to their parents "This is 'shana and she's a Jew!"

It's a wonder I don't have a complex or anything...

#5 Hambil

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:41 PM

My understanding is that much of the persecution of Jews in the past 2000 years has been done over this issue. I've even heard them referred to as 'Christ Killers'. So, it's certainly a wide spread enough belief to have led to a lot of atrocities and the eventual formation of the State of Israel.

Edited by Hambil, 16 August 2006 - 06:42 PM.


#6 offworlder

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 07:45 PM

yeah like when the Spanish Church declared against the Jews in 1492, led by the Inquisition, right after the gains against the Cordova Caliphate and the unification of Aragon and Castile. Jews had a hard time in Spain France and Italy, that's why so many wound up in Germany and Netherlands, the part not ruled by the Spanish king, and eastern europe where the church just wasn't so firebrand against them.

but really I never heard much on that from protestants, mostly from Catholics; it's from back when the church was really trying to flex muscles and take major control, in those times when they became fabulously wealthy and the western world greatest landholders, through putdowns and corruptions and takeovers. I really don't hear much on it nowadays, unless yer in a debate on Mel's Passion movie ;)
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#7 Rhea

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 08:53 PM

View PostHambil, on Aug 16 2006, 04:13 PM, said:

Believe it or not, I only heard that Christian hate of the Jews was routed in the death of Jesus maybe a decade or so ago, despite being raised in a Baptist church. Either they didn't teach it that way, or I missed the message.

I find the hate curious though, for a number of reason.

First, how can you blame ALL Jews for this? Surely that could have been the case.

Second, according to the bible Jesus was *supposed* to die for our sins. It was a good thing. So the Jews where setup by an all powerful all knowing God and really had no choice - in fact they did him a favor.

LOL. Hard to justify considering Christ was a Jew. I heard it as a child but figured only ignorant rednecks would be dumb enough to actually believe it.

Besides, the Romans crucified him. Technically.

Judas and everybody else involved was apparently a catspaw for God's plan. Not sure what happened to free will there. :p :p

Edited by Rhea, 16 August 2006 - 08:55 PM.

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#8 tennyson

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 09:48 PM

Anti-Semitism is an unfortunately lasting opinion and it has flared up for various reasons throughout the centuries. Of course in the beginning Christians were all Jews,forming a sort of schismatic minority group within Judiasm and many of the debates you see in the later books of the New Testament revolve around who Jesus's message was for, the Jewish people only or everyone, with everyone winning out and the Jewish element becoming a minority within the movement.
Then you have the three Jewish revolts against the Romans that result in the destruction of the Temple in Jersusalem and the Diaspora, the scattering of the Jewish people to all corners of the known world to escape the death and destruction at home.
Then flash forward as Jews have made thier homes in many places and through hard work and perservence have become a sucessful urban elite in Europe, the Middle East and other regions. With the usual exceptions for any generalization the Jews were wealthier and more prosperous than thier nieghbors and had thier own unique traditions that set them apart from thier nieghbors.
This made them an easy target for those who saw them as easy scape goats. (and here much of my information comes from the works of Carlo Ginzburg, I'd recommend his book Ecstacies as a starting point.) When the Black Death ravaged Europe many blamed the Jews, saying they poisoned wells and so forth and across Europe gangs of roving citizens attacked the communities of Jews in thier midst. A lot of it was religous-based violence but one of the worst incidents was a conspiracy carried out by the king of France in the early 14th century where heand his ministers fabricated evidence of a vast Jewish conspiracy to poison Christian wells with the aid of the lepers. Using these charges and liberal doses of torture to get the right confessions the king then confiscated all the various hospitals that had been established to help the lepers and all the property and wealth of the Jews in his lands and starting a series of pogroms that would kill thousands.
This greed can be seen in the Spanish crown's expulsion of the Jews as well. A certain strata of the Jewish families of Europe had become very wealthy and since giving loans or charging interest was officially banned to Christians the Jewish families provided many loans to the local rulers, especially the Italian and Iberian  powers and rather than pay them back the rulers expelled or converted them.  
At the local level this same resentment came into play, this combination of envy and need forcing the Jewish communities into certain roles.
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#9 Shalamar

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 09:56 PM

I was raised Roman Catholic, I went to parochial school through eightth grade, and over 95% of the teachers were nuns.

I never heard anything like that in school, from my school mates, their parents, or from any one while I was a part of the Roman Catholic Church.

I never directly heard it from any one after I left either.

Sorry the Jews didn't kill Christ and only an ignorant person contuines that fallacy.

Edited by Shalamar, 16 August 2006 - 09:57 PM.

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#10 Cardie

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 10:31 PM

Whether you've heard that the Jews killed Christ or not depends on how old you are.  Like 'shana, I certainly heard it enough in the 50s and 60s and it was in fact a part of official Catholic doctrine until John the 23d got it taken out among his many "modernizing" reforms.  I know there are passages in one of the Gospels about the perfidious Jews being responsible, because my sixth-grade teacher read them in class during our Easter party.

Of course, it could be worse.  Besides poisoning wells, according to medieval Europeans, Jews were also supposed to go out every Passover eve and kill a young child and use its blood to make Matzo.  (Believe me, if these goys had ever tasted matzo, they would know there wasn't a drop of blood in it!)

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#11 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 10:49 PM

The Catholic Church isn't the only church responsible for fueling the anti-Semitism that was rampant in Europe during the Middle Ages on through the 1800's.  Martin Luther, when he broke off from the Catholic Church, believed that the Jews would embrace what would become the Protestant Movement.  However, they didn't.  As a result, Luther grew furious and even wrote sermons and posting calling for the Jews all the typical anti-Semitic names and blaming them for killing Christ.  His words, in the hands of the middle class and peasants who followed him, caused a lot of trouble in the German Confederated States.  William Shirer, in "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," spent about 100 pp on the roots and continuance of the anti-Semitism that served as the fuel to drive Hitler's "Final Solution."  It's a little dry, but it can be interesting when put into its context within the study of the rise of Nazi Germany.

As for me, personally, I hold to Genesis 12:1-3:

"Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

The above combined with the fact that Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, and nearly all the New Testament writers (except for Luke) were Jews, anti-Semitism does not conform with what I believe.

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#12 tennyson

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 11:40 PM

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Besides poisoning wells, according to medieval Europeans, Jews were also supposed to go out every Passover eve and kill a young child and use its blood to make Matzo.

Yeah I was aware of but really didn't want to mention that particular  disgusting piece of blood libel that still shows up even today in Muslim media.
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#13 Bobby

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 09:06 AM

I don't think it's the killing of Jesus alone that lead to people being hateful of Jews, although that was probably the start of it.  What does the expression Jewing someone down mean?  Years ago, I heard a teacher use it and that's when I decided to look into why people had such a problem with Jews.   I took it to mean haggling.  Even today you still hear about the Jews in control of Hollywood and other things, implying that all Jews are greedy.  

And then there's the fact that if the Jews are god's chosen people and they don't believe Jesus was the messiah/son of god and one would assume that they'd be the ones to know.

Edited by Life for Rent, 17 August 2006 - 09:07 AM.


#14 enTranced

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 10:13 AM

View PostLife for Rent, on Aug 17 2006, 02:06 PM, said:

What does the expression Jewing someone down mean?  Years ago, I heard a teacher use it and that's when I decided to look into why people had such a problem with Jews.   I took it to mean haggling.

I was talking about this with Bossy when the Mel thing happened. My wife's family is from the midwest and some of them use that expression. She used an example of one of them saying they "Jewed down" the price of a car. So yes it means you haggled down the price in a fairly racist sort of way...

Being from the Northeast I have NEVER heard that expression, but i understand it is pretty common in the more roural areas of the midwest.

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Edited by enTranced, 17 August 2006 - 10:13 AM.

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#15 Rhea

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 10:15 AM

View PostenTranced, on Aug 17 2006, 08:13 AM, said:

View PostLife for Rent, on Aug 17 2006, 02:06 PM, said:

What does the expression Jewing someone down mean?  Years ago, I heard a teacher use it and that's when I decided to look into why people had such a problem with Jews.   I took it to mean haggling.

I was talking about this with Bossy when the Mel thing happened. My wife's family is from the midwest and some of them use that expression. She used an example of one of them saying they "Jewed down" the price of a car. So yes it means you haggled down the price in a fairly racist sort of way...

Being from the Northeast I have NEVER heard that expression, but i understand it is pretty common in the more roural areas of the midwest.

enTranced

A traditional occupation for European Jews was as moneylenders.  Some of them, like the Rothschilds, became major powers as bankers. Hence that particularly repulsive expression.

Come to think of it, it makes Mel Gibson's antisemitic remarks particularly ironic, since he did one of the best performances of Shylock's "If you prick me, do I not bleed?" speech from Merchant of Venice I've ever seen in "Man Without a Face."

Edited by Rhea, 17 August 2006 - 02:13 PM.

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Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#16 Cardie

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 11:42 AM

In early modern Europe, usury was considered a sin for Christians.  While Jews were expressly prohibited from owning land or entering certain professions, this left money-lending as one of the few ways to accumulate any sort of wealth.  Having been essentially forced to become experts for generations at this trade and other mercantile pursuits, Jews were then identified with and blamed for any kinds of clever business practices that maximize retail profits.

A colleague here in South Carolina whose wife is Jewish told me they were about to purchase thousands of dollars of furniture for their new house at a store when the salesperson used the term "Jew me down."  They walked out and took their business elsewhere.

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#17 Bobby

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 11:48 AM

^Good for them.  I couldn't believe the teacher used it that day but given the fact that none the students were Jewish I think she felt safe using the phrase.  And the sad thing about it she was a penny pincher herself with a big car and huge house so I found it a little hypocritical.   I think some people don't really think about what they are saying, or worse, don't care.

Edited by Life for Rent, 17 August 2006 - 11:50 AM.


#18 Kosh

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 03:42 PM

I'm getting the image of Elim Garak, hands in the air, "Lets Haggle"!
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#19 SparkyCola

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 06:46 PM

I think that's a pretty scathing and unjustified mass generalisation. I'm Christian and have heard nothing of my apparent 'hatred' for Jews. As has been pointed out already- the irony that Jesus Christ was Jewish is almost too obvious to be pointed out - yet apparently not.

It comes down to the fact that people will take any reason whatsoever to hate others. Ironic, since Christianity is about loving all people.

I was going to say more but I got too distracted by Shoshana's avatar.... :drool:

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#20 Lin731

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 07:41 PM

Coming from the mid west, I've heard the phrase "jewed down" many times. To be honest, I don't think alot of the people using it even connect it to being a racist remark. I've heard it used many times over the years but never by anyone that ever voiced or acted in any way that indicated they had any hatred for jews. Funny how phrases can often be divorced from their original underpinnings by those who use them but that's been my experience with that particular phrase. People use it without ever thinking about it's meaning in more specific terms. To them "jewing down" simply means haggling, without any subtext or intent to insult, as weird as that may sound.

As to this hate for jews, I grew up going to Baptist and to protestant churches and neither ever expressed such views regarding jewish people. The Baptist churches I attended (as another poster mentioned) viewed them with respect, high regard and as "God's chosen people". The protestant churches I attended, while not showing that special regard and respect, didn't ever have anything bad to say about jews. So when I hear about Christians that hate jews, I've always found it strange. For many who express such feelings, I believe it boils down to stereotyping and envy. They precieve jews as having all the power, money and control, so they use the "You killed Jesus" argument to justify their envy.
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