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Now you must give any speech to Everyone? (the pope)

Religion Catholicism Pope Benedict 2006 Speech

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#21 Lin731

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 11:17 AM

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But as in the Danish cartoon controversy, some people aren't exactly making a case for themselves by essentially saying "Stop saying our religion is violent or things will get violent." With how thin-skinned and perpetually aggrieved these Muslims are, you'd think they were American right wingers

Ya got that right! I can't help but be disgusted by the reaction of Muslims. A cartoon or a quote from a long dead emperor get's them bent out of shape inmasse (protesting, firebombing a couple Catholic churches, demanding apologies) and yet terrorists murdering their fellow Muslims, targeting civilians with suicide bombings, torture, kidnapping and beheadings in the region and in other countries etc....gets no large scale reaction. Gee I wonder why we'd have a negative perspective on Muslims and Islam? Murdering Christians and other Muslims apparently is peachy and if there's any critisism at all it's always along the lines of "Yes that was wrong but...." Yet publish a cartoon that offends them or quote a long dead emperor and you have millions of them marching in the streets. :glare:
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#22 ilexx

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 11:49 AM

View PostMuseZack, on Sep 16 2006, 01:12 AM, said:

The history nerd part of me is just geeking out that we're having an international crisis over the quoting of a 15th Century Byzantine Emperor.  ;)

I was wondering: did Manuel II. say that before or after being forced to accept the Turkish sultan as his sovereign - at gun point?

#23 Rhea

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 01:07 PM

View Postilexx, on Sep 16 2006, 08:53 AM, said:

View PostNonny, on Sep 16 2006, 04:43 PM, said:

About Ratzinger's Hitler youth: he could have said no.  Others did, and they died, of course.  Given the Catholic affection for martyrdom, if he is sincere in his disavowal of Hitler, he might consider beatification for the Swing Kids, the White Rose kids, and the others who gave their lives rather than give in.  

Nonny

Ratzinger's parents could - and should - have said no. The Hitler Youth were the Nazi equivalent of the boy scouts. They were children, it was up to their parents whether they joined or not. If the parents said yes, the children had no means to refuse.

No one German kid ever died because of not joining the Hitler Jugend or the BDM (its counterpart for girls).

The Weiße Rose was a students' organisation. And yes, the Scholls should be considered for beatification. It would be a proper statement from a German pope.

However, with things being the way they are (to this day, former SS members are paid pensions by the state, yet the debate over a pardon for the deserters from the German Army during WW II goes on and on and on... ), I have my doubts about it.

The Hitler Youth weren't just passive Boy Scouts. The Nazis encouraged children to inform on their own families, and many did so.

I'm probably jaundiced on the subject, having had a very enthusiastic former Hitler Youth next door for years, still proclaiming the virtues of der Fuhrer and the fact that the Holocaust never happened. :barf:

Edited by Rhea, 16 September 2006 - 01:13 PM.

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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


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#24 Rhea

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 01:12 PM

View PostHibblette, on Sep 16 2006, 08:54 AM, said:

View PostMuseZack, on Sep 15 2006, 06:12 PM, said:

The history nerd part of me is just geeking out that we're having an international crisis over the quoting of a 15th Century Byzantine Emperor.  ;)


But as in the Danish cartoon controversy, some people aren't exactly making a case for themselves by essentially saying "Stop saying our religion is violent or things will get violent."  With how thin-skinned and perpetually aggrieved these Muslims are, you'd think they were American right wingers... :devil:

:howling:

Yep the history nerd that I am-I'm going, isn't that interesting and...

Folks he's quoting...So we can't quote anything from anyone anymore?


Why would someone who is supposed to be the annointed representative of a man who believed in peace and love deliberately use a quote in public that he knew would inflame a goodly portion of the world? It's just such a no-brainer that the Pope should be promoting peace, not inflaming the Muslims. Have I lost my mind, and while y'all are amusing yourselves will you please explain to me how anything positive could possibly come out of this pronouncement?
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#25 ilexx

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 01:26 PM

View PostRhea, on Sep 16 2006, 08:07 PM, said:

View Postilexx, on Sep 16 2006, 08:53 AM, said:

View PostNonny, on Sep 16 2006, 04:43 PM, said:

About Ratzinger's Hitler youth: he could have said no.  Others did, and they died, of course.  Given the Catholic affection for martyrdom, if he is sincere in his disavowal of Hitler, he might consider beatification for the Swing Kids, the White Rose kids, and the others who gave their lives rather than give in.  

Nonny

Ratzinger's parents could - and should - have said no. The Hitler Youth were the Nazi equivalent of the boy scouts. They were children, it was up to their parents whether they joined or not. If the parents said yes, the children had no means to refuse.

No one German kid ever died because of not joining the Hitler Jugend or the BDM (its counterpart for girls).

The Weiße Rose was a students' organisation. And yes, the Scholls should be considered for beatification. It would be a proper statement from a German pope.

However, with things being the way they are (to this day, former SS members are paid pensions by the state, yet the debate over a pardon for the deserters from the German Army during WW II goes on and on and on... ), I have my doubts about it.

The Hitler Youth weren't just passive Boy Scouts. The Nazis encouraged children to inform on their own families, and many did so.

I'm probably jaundiced on the subject, having had a very enthusiastic former Hitler Youth next door for years, still proclaiming the virtues of der Fuhrer and the fact that the Holocaust never happened. :barf:

Rhea, you have my sympathy because of your neighbour.
And no, the Hitler Youth weren't 'passive' boy scouts. But they were boys - up to the age of 15, I believe (after that there were other organizations they could/should join - but I'm not sure about them). The point I'm trying to make is that it is a brainless thing to blame a child for joining such an organization like the Hitler Youth (or the Pioneers in former Communist countries etc.). One should lay the blame with the parents and teachers who were responsible for them.

#26 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 01:59 PM

View PostRhea, on Sep 16 2006, 02:12 PM, said:

Why would someone who is supposed to be the annointed representative of a man who believed in peace and love deliberately use a quote in public that he knew would inflame a goodly portion of the world? It's just such a no-brainer that the Pope should be promoting peace, not inflaming the Muslims. Have I lost my mind, and while y'all are amusing yourselves will you please explain to me how anything positive could possibly come out of this pronouncement?

That's you're mistake. You're asking a question about why the Pope didn't use common sense. What made you think the boy had any common sense to begin with?

Personally I don't care if Muslims are offended. Muslims, just like everyone else, have no right not to be offended.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#27 ilexx

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 02:09 PM

View PostRhea, on Sep 16 2006, 08:12 PM, said:

View PostHibblette, on Sep 16 2006, 08:54 AM, said:

View PostMuseZack, on Sep 15 2006, 06:12 PM, said:

The history nerd part of me is just geeking out that we're having an international crisis over the quoting of a 15th Century Byzantine Emperor.  ;)


But as in the Danish cartoon controversy, some people aren't exactly making a case for themselves by essentially saying "Stop saying our religion is violent or things will get violent."  With how thin-skinned and perpetually aggrieved these Muslims are, you'd think they were American right wingers... :devil:

:howling:

Yep the history nerd that I am-I'm going, isn't that interesting and...

Folks he's quoting...So we can't quote anything from anyone anymore?


Why would someone who is supposed to be the annointed representative of a man who believed in peace and love deliberately use a quote in public that he knew would inflame a goodly portion of the world? It's just such a no-brainer that the Pope should be promoting peace, not inflaming the Muslims. Have I lost my mind, and while y'all are amusing yourselves will you please explain to me how anything positive could possibly come out of this pronouncement?

Because in our society even the supposed annointed representative of whomever is allowed to speak his mind.
Because he quoted both Manuel Paleologos and Ibn Hazn's reply to him, and he did it  not in a speech directed to the general public but in a scientific theological lecture about the unity between Greek philosophical ratio and the Christian beliefs as represented in the Bible, held in front of the students of the Theological Faculty at the University of Regensburg.
Because he tried to also explain why the Muslim point of view on this - while diametrically opposed to both Greek rationalization and the image of God as it is shown in both the Old and New Testament - still has some valid aspects to it in this respect.
Because before quoting Manuel, the pope offered in extenso an 'apology of Mohammed', saying that the emperor knew, that Mohammed had also stated in Sure 2,256 that religious beliefs should not be imposed by force, yet still elaborated on the Djihad, because he wanted to hear Ibn Hazn's answer to that.
Because - in all fairness - the Muslims have no reason to be offended by any of this.

And because - again, in all fairness - Manuel had every reason to ask a Muslim scholar those questions, with Bayazed in front of his gates. And because we should be able to speak about those questions, even publicly, no matter who we are, because 1453 in the immediate aftermath of these questions a large part of Christianity fell under Muslim rule and stayed there until 1918; and because some repercussions of this are still economically, socially, culturally - and sadly also in terms of civil war active today in those parts of the world.

#28 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 02:19 PM

View Postilexx, on Sep 16 2006, 04:53 PM, said:

View PostNonny, on Sep 16 2006, 04:43 PM, said:

About Ratzinger's Hitler youth: he could have said no.  Others did, and they died, of course.  Given the Catholic affection for martyrdom, if he is sincere in his disavowal of Hitler, he might consider beatification for the Swing Kids, the White Rose kids, and the others who gave their lives rather than give in.  

Nonny

Ratzinger's parents could - and should - have said no. The Hitler Youth were the Nazi equivalent of the boy scouts. They were children, it was up to their parents whether they joined or not. If the parents said yes, the children had no means to refuse.

Ratzinger's parents wouldn't have had a choice in the matter- service in the Hitler Youth was compulsory for all young men after 1938.
Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

#29 ilexx

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 02:50 PM

View PostTalkie Toaster, on Sep 16 2006, 09:19 PM, said:

View Postilexx, on Sep 16 2006, 04:53 PM, said:

View PostNonny, on Sep 16 2006, 04:43 PM, said:

About Ratzinger's Hitler youth: he could have said no.  Others did, and they died, of course.  Given the Catholic affection for martyrdom, if he is sincere in his disavowal of Hitler, he might consider beatification for the Swing Kids, the White Rose kids, and the others who gave their lives rather than give in.  

Nonny

Ratzinger's parents could - and should - have said no. The Hitler Youth were the Nazi equivalent of the boy scouts. They were children, it was up to their parents whether they joined or not. If the parents said yes, the children had no means to refuse.

Ratzinger's parents wouldn't have had a choice in the matter- service in the Hitler Youth was compulsory for all young men after 1938.

Actually, I was wrong in an earlier post. The 'Deutsche Jungvolk' was meant for boys up to te age of 14. The HJ was for boys between 14 and 18. Still no adults, but not as young as I originally thought.
What was compulsory starting from March 25th, 1939 was the 'Jugenddienstpflicht'; even so, there were ways of avoiding it that were perfectly legal and did not result in repercussions for the parents. Still, the vast majority of both parents and kids had no objection to it.

Most children took pride in belonging to it.
And most parents, even the ones who were not convinced of the Nazi ideology, did want their children in, as it was the only way to have them take part in the so-called 'Kinderlandverschickung', that took the children away from the bombarded cities into the country side.

#30 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 03:04 PM

My understanding is that the Hitler Youth became obligatory and membership was required by law (Gesetz über die Hitlerjugend) from December 1936. This obligation was affirmed in 1939 with the Jugenddienstpflicht. AFAIK membership could be enforced even against the will of the parents; although as my understanding of this is largely based on wikipedia I'll be happy to be corrected
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#31 Hibblette

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 04:32 PM

View PostRhea, on Sep 16 2006, 01:12 PM, said:

View PostHibblette, on Sep 16 2006, 08:54 AM, said:

View PostMuseZack, on Sep 15 2006, 06:12 PM, said:

The history nerd part of me is just geeking out that we're having an international crisis over the quoting of a 15th Century Byzantine Emperor.  ;)


But as in the Danish cartoon controversy, some people aren't exactly making a case for themselves by essentially saying "Stop saying our religion is violent or things will get violent."  With how thin-skinned and perpetually aggrieved these Muslims are, you'd think they were American right wingers... :devil:

:howling:

Yep the history nerd that I am-I'm going, isn't that interesting and...

Folks he's quoting...So we can't quote anything from anyone anymore?


Why would someone who is supposed to be the annointed representative of a man who believed in peace and love deliberately use a quote in public that he knew would inflame a goodly portion of the world? It's just such a no-brainer that the Pope should be promoting peace, not inflaming the Muslims. Have I lost my mind, and while y'all are amusing yourselves will you please explain to me how anything positive could possibly come out of this pronouncement?

They want his head on a chopping block.  That's a bit on the violent side.

I believe in free speech and if this Pope wants to quote something from the past that shows how it's been for mannnnny years then, is this not enlightenment?

As Zack is pointing out here these guys do get mad and why?  Because we point out that they are violent?  That their religion seems to have violent tendency's if not based in violence.  And rather then prove this wrong-they just turn around and prove it to be correct.

I don't believe in tiptoeing around these people just because they may start a Jihad.  They can get over it.

And I am not a fan of the Pope-actually not any Pope.  I'm not Catholic.  

But I do see the Pope as a power in this world were a lot of people listen to him.  And there comes a time when we have to stand and look at these Moslim extremist and tell them to back off.

Telling the Pope to shut up is allowing these extremist to win.  And right now by my estimate they are way ahead and I'm sick of it.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

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#32 Rhea

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 09:29 PM

I despise the militant Islamic folks who go crazy every time a slur is made against their religion.

I question the intelligence of a pope who made a remark that generally trashes the entire religion of Islam and now acts surprised that there was a reaction to it.

As far as I'm concerned, they're all wrong.

He should not have denigrated someone else's religion.  The pope is supposed to represent something more civilized and noble than that. He is supposed to be a uniter, not a divider. Gee, maybe he's been hanging around with Bush! Ya think?  :p :p

I can't help thinking of Anne Richards' old saw about Dubya -  "Poor George just cain't help it........he was born with a silver foot in his mouth."

This pope also has foot in mouth disease. I hope he does better. The last pope certainly did.

Why do they get so mad? Because unlike Western civilization, their religion is so embedded in their culture you can't separate out one from the other - when you insult their religion you insult the basis of their culture as well. It's not a culture I'm fond of, but dear God, the Pope is supposed to have half a brain, you know?

Edited by Rhea, 16 September 2006 - 09:31 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#33 Hibblette

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 10:58 PM

I know that there are some good Moslims out there-I realize that.

But....

I will admit it-I just do not hold much esteem for this religion.

Their attitude towards women is the number one reason that I will always be very wary of this religion.  Also the fact that there are certain factions of this religion that are not held accountable for this relentless pursuit to destroy another group of people who have a different religion.

Since we have brought the Nazi's into this discussion due to the Pope and his history I am going to add this.  A lot of Hitler's rise to power had to do with the bullying that happened among his supporters and things like the Hitler Youth.  People were to afraid to stand up against it and fight it.

Well speaking up against these extremist and saying (even using a quote) what seems to be a general feel from this religion due to the extremist is something that maybe needed to be said.

Of course the Pope has come out and said he's sorry this was all taken the wrong way.  Well was it?  They reacted just the way it could be predicted.  And then people questioned the Pope's sanity.  Why?  So do we live in fear of saying anything about this religion?

I'm not going to.

I think they are very wrong with their attitude about Jihad and their attitude towards women.

:glare:
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#34 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 11:39 PM

View PostRhea, on Sep 16 2006, 10:29 PM, said:

He is supposed to be a uniter, not a divider.

Kind of hard to be a uniter with a religion that would have it's followers slit your throat as soon as look at you. And as Hibblette pointed out, it's attitudes towards women definately make it hard to deal with.

And since Hitler was brought into this...it would be like worrying whether or not a speech would offend Hitler himself. Who really cares if it offends hitler; same for radical muslims, IMO.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#35 BklnScott

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Posted 17 September 2006 - 12:23 AM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Sep 17 2006, 12:39 AM, said:

View PostRhea, on Sep 16 2006, 10:29 PM, said:

He is supposed to be a uniter, not a divider.

Kind of hard to be a uniter with a religion that would have it's followers slit your throat as soon as look at you.

I'm sure that somewhere in the vast Islamic world there is a man not unlike yourself thinking the exact same thing about Catholicism.  And he has evidence to back him up, too.  So let's not pretend that there's something inherently wrong with Islam that isn't wrong with Catholicism, Judaism or, for that matter, scientology.  Every religion on the face of the planet is misused more often than not.  Which is why I'm not such a big fan of religion.  (Also 'cause they're not true.)

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#36 Mark

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Posted 17 September 2006 - 12:52 AM

Mark: Just in from the wonderful war'ld of Islam...
AP VATICAN CITY -        

Quote

Pope Benedict XVI "sincerely regrets" offending Muslims with his reference to an obscure medieval text that characterizes some of the teachings of Islam's founder as "evil and inhuman," the Vatican said Saturday.

But the statement stopped short of the apology demanded by Islamic leaders around the globe, and anger among Muslims remained intense. Palestinians attacked five churches in the West Bank and Gaza over the pope's remarks Tuesday in a speech to university professors in his native Germany.

An Iraqi insurgent group threatened the Vatican with a suicide attack over the pope's remarks on Islam, according to a statement posted Saturday on the Web.

"We swear to God to send you people who adore death as much as you adore life," said the message posted in the name of the Mujahedeen Army on a Web site frequently used by militant groups.
Associated Press

Mark: If this is the way Islam is going to react to someone quoting words spoken by someone from another time, it's time to end their religion. Any religion that kills for any reason similar should be ended also.
I guess this really is WWIII, and here we are right in the middle of it.  :unsure:
Mark
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#37 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 17 September 2006 - 12:56 AM

View PostScottEVill, on Sep 17 2006, 01:23 AM, said:

I'm sure that somewhere in the vast Islamic world there is a man not unlike yourself thinking the exact same thing about Catholicism.  And he has evidence to back him up, too.  So let's not pretend that there's something inherently wrong with Islam that isn't wrong with Catholicism, Judaism or, for that matter, scientology.  Every religion on the face of the planet is misused more often than not.  Which is why I'm not such a big fan of religion.  (Also 'cause they're not true.)

You know, you're right. Cause earlier today, on the news, they had a story about a suicide bomber that was catholic. And everybody knows that if a catholic wanted to switch religions the members of his community, who are also catholics, would cry for his beheading.

As for catholics abusing women...I'm quite sure that somewhere some do. So you do have a point there.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#38 Mark

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Posted 17 September 2006 - 01:15 AM

View PostScottEVill, on Sep 17 2006, 12:23 AM, said:

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Sep 17 2006, 12:39 AM, said:

View PostRhea, on Sep 16 2006, 10:29 PM, said:

He is supposed to be a uniter, not a divider.

Kind of hard to be a uniter with a religion that would have it's followers slit your throat as soon as look at you.

I'm sure that somewhere in the vast Islamic world there is a man not unlike yourself thinking the exact same thing about Catholicism.  And he has evidence to back him up, too.  So let's not pretend that there's something inherently wrong with Islam that isn't wrong with Catholicism, Judaism or, for that matter, scientology.  Every religion on the face of the planet is misused more often than not.  Which is why I'm not such a big fan of religion.  (Also 'cause they're not true.)

Mark: But there are differences...big differences. At this point in time, the only religion I see killing people indiscriminately in the name of itself is, Islam.
Mark
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#39 Rhea

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Posted 17 September 2006 - 02:56 AM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Sep 16 2006, 09:39 PM, said:

View PostRhea, on Sep 16 2006, 10:29 PM, said:

He is supposed to be a uniter, not a divider.

Kind of hard to be a uniter with a religion that would have it's followers slit your throat as soon as look at you. And as Hibblette pointed out, it's attitudes towards women definately make it hard to deal with.

And since Hitler was brought into this...it would be like worrying whether or not a speech would offend Hitler himself. Who really cares if it offends hitler; same for radical muslims, IMO.

Once again mischaracterizing an entire religion based on the actions of  some fanatics. How would YOU like it if all Christians were tarred with that inbred no-neck Phelps family's brand of fanaticism? Or if people confused all Mormons with the numbnut who just got arrested for plural marriage and child molestation?

SOME Muslims are fanatics. It does not follow that ALL Muslims are fanatics, any more than it follows that all Southern Baptists are pinheads because the Phelps creep claims to be a Southern Baptist.

Should Christianity be judged on the 5,000,000 women who were burned at the stake over a century in the name of God during the Inquisition? Should all Christians be judged by the Crusades (which were SO not about religion as much they were about money and power)?

Should every Catholic be judged by an idiot who bombs an abortion clinic and murders people?

You would not want to be judged by the same sweeping generalizations you are using to characterize Muslims. There is an enormous Muslim population in this country and by and large they are law-abiding citizens.

Hell, people who think the same way you do keep killing Sikhs in this area, and Sikhs aren't even friggin' Muslims. The boneheads don't even know the difference - they see a guy in a turban and shoot or stab the guy thinking he's a Muslim.

Edited by Rhea, 17 September 2006 - 03:00 AM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#40 ilexx

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Posted 17 September 2006 - 04:07 AM

I wonder: could we all step back a little on this one, please?

1. The Hitler Youth was a youth organization, a dreadful one, granted, but a youth organization, nonetheless. After 1939 it was compulsory to be in the 'Jugendersatzdienst' and the HJ became sort of an elite group heading the JED. So actually, it was considered to be an honour - and I suppose that most of the boys tried to be accepted into it. It was stupid, but they were boys and no, they can't be blamed for it.
Their parents can be blamed for it, but - as I said: you could only send your children out of the cities if they were in these organizations. Regardless of their political views and moral standards, most parents would favour saving their children's lives instead of proving a point. Pathetic, I know, but it IS biology...

2. The Pope didn't quote Manuel. He quoted a conversation between Manuel and a Persian scholar. It wasn't about the Djihad, it was about different conceptions of God. In his lecture Benedict made it very clear indeed that he didn't think this quote from Manuel to be correct. He also quoted the Muslim scholar's reply to it and explained why there might be some valid aspects to this - very particular - point of view.
No one in his right mind could be offended by it. And no one could - in all fairness and in good faith - just take the one quote and neglect the other, when reporting about the speech. Suppressing facts when reporting about them is just as much of a lie as altering them.
Yesterday morning the Vatican expressed the Pope's regrets about the misunderstanding. A Hamas-representant then called him an 'agent of George W. Bush' (surprising, really, considering the Vatican's attitude towards the policies of the US for the past years) and churches were set on fire in the Palestinian territories. Yesterday afternoon the Pope expressed his regrets anew; in reaction to that they attacked some more churches. All churches were Greek Orthodox, all Christians attacked or molested were Arabs belonging to Christian communities (there are about 100 000 Christian Arab Palestinians, of whom about 2000 are Catholics).

3. 5 million women burned at stake, Rhea? Forgive me, the Inquisition was one of history's and Christianity's darkest moments. But 5 million women? I do not have the numbers of the people killed by the Inquisition, but I doubt it very much that the whole amount of people from all the centuries, including the victims of the Albigense crusade, the religious wars in 15th century-France etc., would add up to this. And it doesn't help in such matters to  come with such figures, if they aren't thoroughly checked. Furthermore: as far as I know (and I will try to check it), most women accused, convicted and executed by fire on witch-charges were victims not of the Inquisition, but of Puritan, Calvinist etc. sectarians, who were Protestants - sort of. It started late in the 15th century and merrily went on in Switzerland, England, parts of France, the Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia and even the United States as late as the beginning of the 19th century.


3. Last, not least: religion in general and monotheism in particular is a bad idea. But since we can't start prosecuting some Egyptian scholars or others from around the 13th century BC for instigating violence by preaching monotheism, I am afraid that we will have to put up with it for a little while longer.



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Religion, Catholicism, Pope Benedict, 2006, Speech

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