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Senator Bill Frist: Let's make nice with the Taliban

Senate 2006 Sen Bill Frist Majority Leader Afghanistan Taliban

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#21 Nonny

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 08:40 AM

 Broph, on Oct 3 2006, 06:28 AM, said:

From their perspective, they thought that they were right and that they should do something about it.
What they are doing is murdering women and girls over independence and education issues.  Is that okay with you?  

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I think that they're wrong and I think that if we do something similar, then we're just as wrong.
If we start murdering women and girls the way the Taliban do, then I won't be here to agree, since I'll be dead.  

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#22 Nonny

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 08:43 AM

 Broph, on Oct 3 2006, 06:38 AM, said:

The last time I checked, the pope didn't get a bunch of planes to fly into buildings.
I didn't say he did.  His predecessor, however, came here and told us to change our laws.  

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#23 Nonny

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 08:51 AM

 Broph, on Oct 3 2006, 06:38 AM, said:

How exactly do you think the Taliban like it when we attack them and try to take them out of power?
I exactly think they don't like it.  How about you?

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Do you really think it makes things any better?
It could have, if we had stayed there and finished the job instead of haring off to Iraq on Bush's little personal vendetta.  

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Iraq isn't much better and when we leave all heck is going to break out.
All heck has already broken out.  

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#24 Lin731

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:18 AM

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Think about it for a minute. That's exactly what they did. We show programs where people commit adultery and drink and do all sorts of nasty stuff. Our music promotes violence and anarchy. These people feared that their followers would learn from our example and start emulating us, thus losing their chance at paradise after death. Their honor and their religious views are more important to them than anything that happens here on earth. And for that, the flew planes into buildings.

Are those movies or real life Broph? Is our news filled with American woman being beheaded, starved, beaten by government sanction? Is our news, our churches filled with radical Christian teachings calling for Americans to rise up and murder those who don't share our faith? If they don't like our culture, don't buy into it. Ban our music, movies etc...but don't fly planes into our buildings killing 3,000 civilians. Don't advocate in your mosques the murders of anyone not sharing your faith. Don't harbor those responsible for the murder of 3,000 people. In the case of Afganistan and the Taliban, they had a choice. They chose to harbor and embrace Al Qaeda. They chose to allow terrorist training camps, they chose to endorse as state policy a philosphy based on a radical, violent concept of Islam that led to the deliberate murder of 3,000 American civilians. They chose to not turn over Bin Laden in the aftermath of 911. We didn't invade Afghanistan based on their faith or how they ran the country. We invaded it based on an attack by those they harbored and endorsed.

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From their perspective, they thought that they were right and that they should do something about it.

Deliberate targeting and murder of civilians is immoral and criminal. Cause and effect in this case led to invasion. Their actions carried consequences for themselves and their fellow citizens. I don't care about their perspective. They had their perspective in their own country but when it spilled over into murder in our country, their perspective be damned.

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I think that they're wrong and I think that if we do something similar, then we're just as wrong.

As I said earlier, their action against us led to the invasion of Afghanistan. Had they not harbored Al Qaeda in the aftermath, I'm sure they'd happily be beheading woman to this very day. They brought our presence down upon themselves. They had the opportunity to head off an invasion, they refused. Our presence in Afghanistan is their own doing.
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#25 Broph

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:23 AM

 Nonny, on Oct 3 2006, 01:43 PM, said:

 Broph, on Oct 3 2006, 06:38 AM, said:

The last time I checked, the pope didn't get a bunch of planes to fly into buildings.
I didn't say he did.  His predecessor, however, came here and told us to change our laws.  

Nonny

Are you advocating telling the Taliban to disband and stop their ways and just leave it at that?

What happened when the Pope told us to change our laws? Pretty much nothing.

What happened when we went to Korea, Vietnam and Iraq and fought against the people there? Pretty much nothing.

The difference is, when the Pope spoke, at least nobody got killed when nothing happened.

#26 Broph

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:26 AM

 Nonny, on Oct 3 2006, 01:40 PM, said:

What they are doing is murdering women and girls over independence and education issues.  Is that okay with you?

It's not my country, so it doesn't really matter whether it's OK with me, is it? Do you remember why we fought the War of Independence? It was so we could govern ourselves without Imperial rule. Why should we think that we can dictate to another country how they should rule themselves. You didn't like it when the Pope told us to change our laws, why should we tell someone else to change theirs?

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If we start murdering women and girls the way the Taliban do, then I won't be here to agree, since I'll be dead.  

Nonny

When I said do as they do, I was talking about taking up arms, flying planes into buildings, etc. That was kind of the gist of my point.

#27 Broph

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:28 AM

 Nonny, on Oct 3 2006, 01:51 PM, said:

It could have, if we had stayed there and finished the job instead of haring off to Iraq on Bush's little personal vendetta.

OK, you lost me. Stayed where and finished what job? It didn't work in Korea and it didn't work in Vietnam.

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All heck has already broken out.  

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It'll be worse when we leave and there's nobody to separate the sides.

#28 Lin731

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:33 AM

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OK, you lost me. Stayed where and finished what job? It didn't work in Korea and it didn't work in Vietnam.

Stayed in Afghanistan and secured the country instead of sending the bulk of our troops to Iraq. Most of our troops were redeployed to Iraq when Afghanistan hadn't really been secured. The tribal warloards still controlled most of the country when we left and many of them where in cahoots with the Taliban and Al Qaeda. We secured Kabul and that was about all. In pulling out to invade Iraq we left the country vulnerable to a resurgence of the Taliban which is exactly what happened. Some of us have been commenting on that for well over a year.
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#29 Nonny

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:34 AM

 Broph, on Oct 3 2006, 07:23 AM, said:

What happened when the Pope told us to change our laws? Pretty much nothing.
You're kidding, right?  Just in case you're not, let me tell you that in fact Congress and various state governments are falling all over themselves to accommodate him and his successor.  I fear that the Supreme Court will follow next.  

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The difference is, when the Pope spoke, at least nobody got killed when nothing happened.
That's only because the Inquisition has been declawed.  I sure haven't heard any apologies for the millions of women his predecessors killed all those centuries ago.  

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#30 Broph

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:36 AM

 Lin731, on Oct 3 2006, 02:18 PM, said:

Are those movies or real life Broph?

It doesn't matter to them. They think that having sinful thoughts is as bad as doing the sinful deed. It's their religion. It's what's important to them.

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If they don't like our culture, don't buy into it.

It's great to say that, but with satellite, it's hard to keep it out. Saying "don't buy into it" hasn't helped the war on drugs, has it? Don't we try to stop the supply of drugs as much as we tell people not to take drugs? The Taliban figure that if they can cut off the source that there won't be the influence to lead people down the wrong path.

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Don't advocate in your mosques the murders of anyone not sharing your faith. Don't harbor those responsible for the murder of 3,000 people. In the case of Afganistan and the Taliban, they had a choice.

And what, exactly, is their incentive for this course of action?

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We didn't invade Afghanistan based on their faith or how they ran the country. We invaded it based on an attack by those they harbored and endorsed.

Do you realize how many countries hate the US because we endorse Israel? Does it make it right for them to hate and attack us for this?

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Deliberate targeting and murder of civilians is immoral and criminal. Cause and effect in this case led to invasion.

To them, the ends justify the means. You talk of cause and effect, but they would argue the same way - if the girls followed the law, they wouldn't have been punished. That's how they think.

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I don't care about their perspective.

That is exactly why the US continues to enter in engagements that we have no chance of winning.

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They brought our presence down upon themselves.

That's the same reasoning Al Queda used to fly planes into buildings.

#31 Broph

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:38 AM

 Lin731, on Oct 3 2006, 02:33 PM, said:

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OK, you lost me. Stayed where and finished what job? It didn't work in Korea and it didn't work in Vietnam.

Stayed in Afghanistan and secured the country instead of sending the bulk of our troops to Iraq. Most of our troops were redeployed to Iraq when Afghanistan hadn't really been secured. The tribal warloards still controlled most of the country when we left and many of them where in cahoots with the Taliban and Al Qaeda. We secured Kabul and that was about all. In pulling out to invade Iraq we left the country vulnerable to a resurgence of the Taliban which is exactly what happened. Some of us have been commenting on that for well over a year.

So we should have secured the whole country just because we think that Bin Laden and maybe a couple of other people may be there. Just like we went to Iraq because someone thought that some weapons of mass distruction might be there.

Sounds like a lot of work and effort and killing on a lot of mights.

#32 Broph

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:39 AM

 Nonny, on Oct 3 2006, 02:34 PM, said:

 Broph, on Oct 3 2006, 07:23 AM, said:

What happened when the Pope told us to change our laws? Pretty much nothing.
You're kidding, right?  Just in case you're not, let me tell you that in fact Congress and various state governments are falling all over themselves to accommodate him and his successor.  I fear that the Supreme Court will follow next.  

I don't see laws on stem cell research. What other laws did he insist on that are now in place?

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That's only because the Inquisition has been declawed.  I sure haven't heard any apologies for the millions of women his predecessors killed all those centuries ago.  

Nonny

And now we talk about centuries-old history. OK. Yeah.

#33 Nonny

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:40 AM

 Broph, on Oct 3 2006, 07:36 AM, said:

 Lin731, on Oct 3 2006, 02:18 PM, said:

Are those movies or real life Broph?

It doesn't matter to them. They think that having sinful thoughts is as bad as doing the sinful deed. It's their religion. It's what's important to them.
Did they get that from Catholicism?  That is exactly what I was taught in Catholic school when I was a small child.  "Thought, word and deed."  

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#34 Godeskian

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:43 AM

 Lin731, on Oct 3 2006, 03:18 PM, said:

Is our news, our churches filled with radical Christian teachings calling for Americans to rise up and murder those who don't share our faith?

I'd say folks like Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps come very close. And don't forget, that it was the current President's father whom, back in the late eighties went on national TV to remind everyone that he felt that Atheists could not be considered patriots, and should not even be considered Americans. Need I remind you of the lynching of a young homosexual guy by radical religious people.

America as a country has no innocence to speak from, and in days where prisoners, i'm sorry enemy combatants are routinely mistreated under presidential fiat, and foreign nationals are arrested and shipped to Syria to undergo 'rigorous questioning' that is little better than torture, America has no moral highground to judge other nations from.

Edited by Godeskian, 03 October 2006 - 09:45 AM.

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#35 Nonny

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:47 AM

 Broph, on Oct 3 2006, 07:39 AM, said:

 Nonny, on Oct 3 2006, 02:34 PM, said:

 Broph, on Oct 3 2006, 07:23 AM, said:

What happened when the Pope told us to change our laws? Pretty much nothing.
You're kidding, right?  Just in case you're not, let me tell you that in fact Congress and various state governments are falling all over themselves to accommodate him and his successor.  I fear that the Supreme Court will follow next.  

I don't see laws on stem cell research. What other laws did he insist on that are now in place?
Check out the verb form indicating action in progress.

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#36 Broph

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:53 AM

 Nonny, on Oct 3 2006, 02:47 PM, said:

Check out the verb form indicating action in progress.

Nonny

He's been gone almost, what, 2 years now? And when was his last visit to the US? And what laws are in the process of being enacted that he insisted on?

Saying that we're right for telling others what they should and shouldn't do while saying that the Pope was wrong sounds rather, again, hypocritical.

#37 Lin731

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:03 AM

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It doesn't matter to them. They think that having sinful thoughts is as bad as doing the sinful deed. It's their religion. It's what's important to them.

Good for them, just keep your religious doctrine out of the side of our buildings.

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It's great to say that, but with satellite, it's hard to keep it out. Saying "don't buy into it" hasn't helped the war on drugs, has it? Don't we try to stop the supply of drugs as much as we tell people not to take drugs? The Taliban figure that if they can cut off the source that there won't be the influence to lead people down the wrong path.

So it's our fault that their citizens chaffed under their repression and sought out Western culture? Sounds like their problem, not ours. How exactly would slamming a couple planes into the Twin Towers "cut off the source"? Sounds more like trying to stop a flood with a wisk broom. If they blew up the US tomorrow, would that cut off the source or just redirect their violence toward Europe? If they can't maintain their faith on the values it expouses, they surely can't by killing outsiders. as to the drug issue (using your analogy) I guess we should just blow up some well populated town to "cut off the source" nevermind whether the people we killed deliberately had any part in the drug trade.

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And what, exactly, is their incentive for this course of action?

Self preservation maybe? You don't want to be bombed for the actions you advocate, you don't want to be occupied (hense bringing more exposure to those evil western infidel) than don't preach a philosphy that will bring that about.

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Do you realize how many countries hate the US because we endorse Israel? Does it make it right for them to hate and attack us for this?

Nope but then we're not attacking them for hating Israel are we? We retaliated against them for the attack launched against us....BIG difference. Worlds and attitudes don't kill 3,000 people, terrorists acting on them do.

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To them, the ends justify the means. You talk of cause and effect, but they would argue the same way - if the girls followed the law, they wouldn't have been punished. That's how they think.

And they'd no doubt be happily beheading all the woman they felt like if they hadn't harbored and refused to turn over Bin Laden, correct? Oh btw...let's look at "the law". Young man has sex with the daughter of a rival warlords clan, apparently the "the law" allows the other clan to gang rape the offending young man's sister. Now exactly what law did she break Broph? How about this "law" woman must be escorted by a male relative to be out on the streets. To do otherwise results in beheading. Unfortunately though, the womans male relatives have all been killed in the various tribal and numerous other wars. She follows the law, she starves. She disobeys the law and is caught, she's beheaded.

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That is exactly why the US continues to enter in engagements that we have no chance of winning.

I stop giving a damn about their POV when they launch an attack on civilians in my country. Let's be honest here, we could wipe the Middle east off the face of the map if we wanted to, so let's not compare and contrast Jesus and Spiderman here. We were attacked and we retaliated. Had they not harbored Bin Laden, we'd not be there today. They were running the country as they saw fit but when they tried to export their POV at the nose of airplanes, killing 3,000 people, they've infringed on my country and it's beliefs.

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That's the same reasoning Al Queda used to fly planes into buildings.

Oh please....They attacked us, we retaliated, pure and simple. Quite different than plotting to deliberately kill civilians because you hate our culture, religion and values.
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#38 Lin731

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:11 AM

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I'd say folks like Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps come very close. And don't forget, that it was the current President's father whom, back in the late eighties went on national TV to remind everyone that he felt that Atheists could not be considered patriots, and should not even be considered Americans. Need I remind you of the lynching of a young homosexual guy by radical religious people.

No need to remind me as I loathe Robertson, Falwell, Phelps etc...I'm just pointing out that they are the exception here, not the rule. I have yet to go to a church here preaching "Hate Muslims, strap a bomb on your chest and walk into a deli, Mall, bar etc.... and randomly kill as many people as you can.

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America as a country has no innocence to speak from, and in days where prisoners, i'm sorry enemy combatants are routinely mistreated under presidential fiat, and foreign nationals are arrested and shipped to Syria to undergo 'rigorous questioning' that is little better than torture, America has no moral highground to judge other nations from.

Which is percisely why I dispise Bush, He's turned my country into something I'm ashamed of. We've had our moments in history (past and present) that we should hang our heads in shame about but Bush has taken it to new depths. I agree we don't have any moral highground to stand on now, again why I've opposed all the actions this administrations taken since 911.
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#39 Broph

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:20 AM

 Lin731, on Oct 3 2006, 03:03 PM, said:

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It doesn't matter to them. They think that having sinful thoughts is as bad as doing the sinful deed. It's their religion. It's what's important to them.

Good for them, just keep your religious doctrine out of the side of our buildings.

And they want us to keep our hedonistic ways away from their people. Hard to do in today's world.

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So it's our fault that their citizens chaffed under their repression and sought out Western culture?

That's their perspective; the one you want to ignore.

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How exactly would slamming a couple planes into the Twin Towers "cut off the source"?

Hey, I didn't come up with the plan.

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as to the drug issue (using your analogy) I guess we should just blow up some well populated town to "cut off the source" nevermind whether the people we killed deliberately had any part in the drug trade.

I don't recall advocating any particular course of action.

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And what, exactly, is their incentive for this course of action?

Self preservation maybe? You don't want to be bombed for the actions you advocate, you don't want to be occupied (hense bringing more exposure to those evil western infidel) than don't preach a philosphy that will bring that about.

But that's exactly what they think they're doing. They think that they're protecting themselves and their way of life by doing this.

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Nope but then we're not attacking them for hating Israel are we? We retaliated against them for the attack launched against us....BIG difference. Worlds and attitudes don't kill 3,000 people, terrorists acting on them do.

When did Afghanistan attack us? Go back and read the thread again. Check out what I replied to.

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And they'd no doubt be happily beheading all the woman they felt like if they hadn't harbored and refused to turn over Bin Laden, correct? Oh btw...let's look at "the law". Young man has sex with the daughter of a rival warlords clan, apparently the "the law" allows the other clan to gang rape the offending young man's sister. Now exactly what law did she break Broph?

You're comparing apples and oranges again. Go back and really read what I wrote.

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How about this "law" woman must be escorted by a male relative to be out on the streets. To do otherwise results in beheading. Unfortunately though, the womans male relatives have all been killed in the various tribal and numerous other wars. She follows the law, she starves. She disobeys the law and is caught, she's beheaded.

And if she's not beheaded, she is attacked by others and brings shame on her family; in their eyes, that is worse than the alternative.

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I stop giving a damn about their POV when they launch an attack on civilians in my country.

The thing that you're still not seeing is that in their POV, we're the ones who attacked first.

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They were running the country as they saw fit but when they tried to export their POV at the nose of airplanes, killing 3,000 people, they've infringed on my country and it's beliefs.

Read the last thing you wrote again. Infringed on your country and its beliefs. Now do you understand that they see it as us attacking first?

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Oh please....They attacked us, we retaliated, pure and simple. Quite different than plotting to deliberately kill civilians because you hate our culture, religion and values.

Did they attack us or did they harbor someone who attacked us (which, so far, nobody has proven)? You keep going back and forth on that idea.

#40 Godeskian

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:28 AM

 Broph, on Oct 3 2006, 04:20 PM, said:

When did Afghanistan attack us?

My question also. Wasn't it members of Al-Quada, mostly from Saudi Arabia that flew the planes that hit the Towers and the pentagon?

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