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Sexual Orientation and Pedophelia

Sexual Orientation Pedophilia Discussion Differences Sex

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#1 Rhea

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 08:29 PM

I wanted to pull this discussion out of the Foley thread, since Foley isn't technically a pedophile nor has he committed a violent crime against a child that we know of.

Statistics come from http://www.prevent-a....com/stats2.htm

Their stats come from the Department of Justice:

Quote

For offenders imprisoned for violent crimes against victims younger than 18 (1991):
  Almost 10 percent were convicted of murder or manslaughter of a child;.
  Fifteen percent were convicted of forcible rape;
  Fifty-seven percent were convicted of other types of sexual assault (statutory rape, lewd acts or forcible sodomy, etc.);
  Approximately 10 percent had beaten or threatened their young victims;
  About 30 percent reported attacks on more than one child;
  Children younger than 18 were the victims in almost 20 percent of the violent crimes; and
  More than half of the child victims were 12 or younger.

Inmate interviews in 277 prisons in 45 states, conducted during 1991, revealed:
  [Of all prisoners convicted of rape or sexual assault, two-thirds victimized children;
  Three out of four child victims were female;
  Offenders typically preyed on children they knew, not strangers;
  Eighty-eight percent had a prior relationship with their victims;
  Prisoners convicted of attacking children were mostly male (97 percent);
  Almost 70 were percent white;
  Sixty-four percent were married or divorced;

  Child victimizers were generally five years older than those who victimized adults;
  About 22 percent of the child sex offenders reported having been sexually abused themselves during childhood; and
  Three out of four prisoners who victimized a child reported the crime took place in their own home or in the victim's home.

Basically pedophiles more likely to be heterosexual than homosexual. The other interesting statistic I saw on another page is that 90-some-odd percent of children sexually abused and/or assaulted knew their assaulter. And, if you read further down the page, you're most likely to be assaulted and/or killed by a family member.

Sort of puts paid to the fundie view of gay males as pedophiles, doesn't it?  :blink:  :Oo:  :wacko:

Edited by Rhea, 15 October 2006 - 08:31 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#2 Nonny

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 08:58 PM

View PostRhea, on Oct 15 2006, 06:29 PM, said:

Sort of puts paid to the fundie view of gay males as pedophiles, doesn't it?  :blink:  :Oo:  :wacko:
You'd think so, wouldn't you, but folks who want excuses to hate gays, or any other group, for that matter, don't pay much attention to facts.   :(  :angry:

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#3 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 11:50 PM

Why Nonny, You wouldn't want to confuse the dire warnings of a true patriot like Dick Cheney with some facts and figures - OBVIOUSLY someone in the "Lavender Mafia" came up with these numbers to discredit the GOP - because everyone knows that "The Gays" have to recruit the young - where else would they go to get new members? After all since we managed to squash their attempts to destroy the institution of Marriage through hard work and patriotic speeches they are working especially hard to dress us all in ugly colors and design our houses to have bad feng shui......


Oh, I can't even continue - it hurts too much! Anyone who doesn't know, in this day and age that its the married father of three down the street with the swimming pool and the tall shrubs that touches the little ones, not the fabulous gay couple from across the street is an idiot.

But I've said for a long time that  - Oh never mind......

Even trying to be tongue-in-cheek - or just plain cheeky - is so offensive to me I start to reject myself. :suspect:
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#4 BklnScott

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 07:17 AM

Agreed, Nonny & Gefiltefishmon--Hate defies facts.  There are people who will still tell you, unironically, that the Jews harvest the blood of Arab (and Christian) children for passover.  

This is no different: a despised minority group will always be said by its enemies to prey on "the children."

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#5 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 08:42 AM

Hmmm, math isn't my forte, but don't you have to look at the proportion of homosexuals existing that are pedophiles vs. the proportion of heterosexuals?  (the two separate pops. to compare, vs just looking at the one stat.)
Since there are fewer homosexuals in the general population, let's say 10% - then if 36% of offenders are gay, that's a higher proportion ... at least of those caught.
And that's assuming the married or divorced offenders answering this survery are in fact hetero - as we know, there are closeted men that marry.
But we also shouldn't assume the single men are by default gay.  
The relevent #'s seem to me to be that almost 100% of pedophiles are male and a quarter of their targets are male.
I wonder why they didn't ask the prisoners their sexual orientation directly - though I'd be hard pressed to give much weight to their answers.

Edited by Nittany Lioness, 16 October 2006 - 02:11 PM.

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#6 QueenTiye

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 09:37 AM

View PostRhea, on Oct 15 2006, 09:29 PM, said:

Basically pedophiles more likely to be heterosexual than homosexual. The other interesting statistic I saw on another page is that 90-some-odd percent of children sexually abused and/or assaulted knew their assaulter. And, if you read further down the page, you're most likely to be assaulted and/or killed by a family member.

Sort of puts paid to the fundie view of gay males as pedophiles, doesn't it?  :blink:  :Oo:  :wacko:

There are some of us who can tell you these statistics by personal experience.  I recall the predatory males in the near environments or schools when I was growing up, and if I recall 5 of them (a pretty darned high number, and I'm betting if I think about it enough, I knew more than that.) only one was preying on boys.  I didn't know ANY predatory females, but then maybe I was the wrong gender to happen to notice such a creature.

The most dangerous thing about the story being told that pedophiles are gay (and this, despite the perpetual news reports that keep telling us the exact opposite) is the risk it puts children in.  Its like repeatedly stating that the only way to get AIDS is to be gay... the false sense of security it engenders in anyone else is inherently dangerous.

QT

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#7 QueenTiye

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 09:38 AM

View PostNittany Lioness, on Oct 16 2006, 09:42 AM, said:

And that's assuming the married or divorced offenders answering this survery are in fact hetero - as we know, there are closeted men that marry.
I wonder why they didn't ask the prisoners their sexual orientation directly - though I'd be hard pressed to give much weight to their answers.

I think the statistics explain Rhea's statement.  70% of offenders are male, 75% of victims are female.  That means that the majority of these offenses are heterosexual in nature.

QT

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#8 Rhea

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 09:49 AM

Also, if you'd read the whole thing, not all of the stats come from the prisoner survey (that would be downright stupid). Some derive from other compiled statistics.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#9 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 11:05 AM

I'm seeing 97% male offenders, not 70%.
And if 25% of the victims are little boys, that's, what - over double the proportion of homosexuals in the general population;
so, going by these numbers, does that mean then that there is roughly twice the chance if you are a male homosexual that you rape boys than than if you're a hetero man that you rape girls?

Edited by Nittany Lioness, 16 October 2006 - 12:15 PM.

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#10 QueenTiye

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 11:21 AM

View PostNittany Lioness, on Oct 16 2006, 12:05 PM, said:

I'm seeing 95% male offenders, not 70%.
And if 25% of the victims are little boys, that's, what - over double the proportion of homosexuals in the general population;
so, going by these numbers, does that mean then that there is a roughly twice the chance if you are a male homosexual that you rape boys than than if you're a hetero man that you rape girls?

You're right. I picked up the 70% from the quote "70% were white."

However - the 97% mentioned refers to prisoners.  Which means that the majority of pedophiles being successfully prosecuted for their crimes are male.  That isn't surprising... consider the news stories we've heard about women pedophiles.

I just read a story in the news about the neigbhoring town next to mine... a female teacher with a 15 year history of preying on little boys, including getting pregnant by one of her students, etc. - never got kicked out of the school system, despite the ongoing documentation of her offenses.

People think that boys can "take it" when its dished out by women, but get it that its "rape"when its done by men.

QT

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#11 SparkyCola

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 11:37 AM

QT- it is a FACT that women commit far less crime than men, and a fact that has remained remarkably consistent through time. It's not just the fact that men can't get pregnant. I think it's far to say that men are more sexually charged than women, in general, don't you?

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#12 QueenTiye

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 11:40 AM

Erm... no... I don't!

I think women and men express their sexuality differently, but I think its an unfair stereotype both on men and women to say that men are more sexually charged.

And while violence is typically perpetuated by men more often than women, this crime doesn't require "violence." Contact at all is a crime.  And - women caught for the crime don't get into as much trouble as men do.  So - what I'm saying is not that the number of men perpetuating the crime isn't higher than the number of women - but that prison statistics are probably inflated somewhat.

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#13 enTranced

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 12:16 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Oct 16 2006, 04:37 PM, said:

I think it's far to say that men are more sexually charged than women, in general, don't you?

Sparky

Negative.

Talk to any guy who is married and ask him which partner it is that initiates sex more often and come back here and try to say that with a straight face! :D

At best both genders are "sexualy charged" about the same, however I would guess that if it's not equal I would say WOMEN are charged more then men if only slightly.

We guys get a bad rap just because we are louder and more in your face about it (we also get our charge on differently then women do).

Basicaly, our side gets charged faster and it goes away almost completly after we are satisfied.

The female side (and this is only from observation from three years of marrage mind you) takes a little longer to get going but is MUCH more intense and more aggresive to *ahem* satisfy the appetite. ;) and even afterwords asks for seconds more then her male partner.

Reminds me of a favorite scene from Species :

Quote

We made it female to be more docile and controllable.
*beat*
You guys don't get out much do you?

Ben Kingsly and Michael Madison from Species

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EDITED to create a nifty quote box and add actors names.

Edited by enTranced, 16 October 2006 - 02:35 PM.

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#14 Cait

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 12:54 PM

^ You are a wise man eT.  Wise indeed. :D

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

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#15 enTranced

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 02:32 PM

View PostCait, on Oct 16 2006, 05:54 PM, said:

^ You are a wise man eT.  Wise indeed. :D

I'm going to have to print this out for Bossy...

....after I copy it a few times for evidence of course.  :whistle:

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#16 Rhea

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 03:04 PM

View PostCait, on Oct 16 2006, 10:54 AM, said:

^ You are a wise man eT.  Wise indeed. :D


What Caid said.  That's our eT. :love:
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#17 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 04:44 PM

View PostNittany Lioness, on Oct 16 2006, 12:05 PM, said:

I'm seeing 97% male offenders, not 70%.
And if 25% of the victims are little boys, that's, what - over double the proportion of homosexuals in the general population;
so, going by these numbers, does that mean then that there is roughly twice the chance if you are a male homosexual that you rape boys than than if you're a hetero man that you rape girls?


Well you still have to take into account personal orientation. The majority of pedophiles who molest boys are not interested in men or even teenaged boys - and in fact most identify themselves as Heterosexual and many have families - Molestation and pedophilia is USUALLY not about sex (Neither - for that matter - is Rape, but, there are exceptions), its about power and control. That doesn't care about orinentation it only cares about someone vulnerable and easy to hurt - while forcing them to 'trust' and do other things - spend time talking to foster kids and it'll give you the heebie jeebies!

Edited by Gefiltefishmon, 16 October 2006 - 04:48 PM.

"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce

#18 SparkyCola

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 07:41 PM

It depends, I suppose, on your definition of 'sexually charged'. I think it's very significant that men are "stirred" very rapidly. It takes more than a bit of flirting or something erotic to turn on a woman, for a man it's easier. It's the same principle as the rape of adults. Men rape more women than women rape men.

Do you have any evidence I can take a look at, or is it just your feeling on it? I would have thought a woman would be dealt with more harshly, if anything, because women are stereotyped as trustworthy and maternal, and that image is broken. In the past that was always the misconception - that women got off lightly, when in fact they were often treated more harshly, and that's why I'm skeptical now  - but you could be right, of course :)

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#19 QueenTiye

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 08:16 PM

View PostGefiltefishmon, on Oct 16 2006, 05:44 PM, said:

Well you still have to take into account personal orientation. The majority of pedophiles who molest boys are not interested in men or even teenaged boys - and in fact most identify themselves as Heterosexual and many have families - Molestation and pedophilia is USUALLY not about sex (Neither - for that matter - is Rape, but, there are exceptions), its about power and control. That doesn't care about orinentation it only cares about someone vulnerable and easy to hurt - while forcing them to 'trust' and do other things - spend time talking to foster kids and it'll give you the heebie jeebies!

If it isn't about sex why is sex a part of it? There are lots of ways to exert power over people, and children are pretty powerless.

View PostSparkyCola, on Oct 16 2006, 08:41 PM, said:

It depends, I suppose, on your definition of 'sexually charged'. I think it's very significant that men are "stirred" very rapidly. It takes more than a bit of flirting or something erotic to turn on a woman, for a man it's easier. It's the same principle as the rape of adults. Men rape more women than women rape men.

I understand you better now. :)  I think I understood 'sexually charged" differently.  I don't know if men are more easily or rapidly aroused than women - I do know that women's sex drive is just as strong or stronger in some cases as men, and I can almost predict that there are timing issues that make that more true at some ages and less true at others.  

Quote

Do you have any evidence I can take a look at, or is it just your feeling on it?

I don't - but this isn't just my feeling on the matter... as I mentioned, there are articles we can find in the news of women carrying on like this and still getting a chance to do it again and again and again... the same factors that make women "not supposed to do this" are the ones that make people believe that it hasn't happened.  Plus, there are a lot of factors that go into women getting off more often than men with a crime like this.  One is boys being made to feel like its unmanly to reject comeons from women - even inappropriate ones (how many times do we hear how cool its supposed to be for older women to come on to boys?)

Here's an upsetting website - I haven't investigated it much to find out why all the criminals on the site are female - but anyway - they seem to be determined to ferret out those kinds of stories - and there are a bunch of them here:

http://www.pkblogs.c...ed-participant/

This story from the NY Times is listed amongst those, and is the one that has my ire right now:

http://www.nytimes.c...amp;oref=slogin

Quote

A History of Sex With Students, Unchallenged
Mary DiBiase Blaich for The New York Times

Diane Cherchio West had sexual relationships with two teenage boys who were students at Bayonne High School, where she was a guidance counselor. She retired in 2002 after she was charged with statutory rape.


By DAVID KOCIENIEWSKI
Published: October 10, 2006

BAYONNE, N.J. — Many in this gray, insular city are at a loss to explain why Diane Cherchio West was allowed to continue working in the public school system for two decades after she was caught in 1980 kissing and groping a 13-year-old student at an eighth-grade dance.

Why, after her promotion to guidance counselor at Bayonne High School, no one alerted social services, school officials or the police when she became pregnant by an 11th grader she supervised, Steven West, and married him upon his graduation in 1985.

Or why, when that baby, Steven Jr., grew to be a teenager, no one balked as his 15-year-old friend moved in with Ms. West, who then seduced the friend with Scooby-Doo boxer shorts and evening jaunts to sports bars and used her school authority to rearrange his classes around their secret trysts.

It was not until 2001, when relatives of the boy, Christopher Castlegrande, filed a complaint with the police of statutory rape against Ms. West, that she left her $74,000-a-year job and lost her unfettered access to Bayonne High School’s students.

The italicized part is a small print caption from the article - and it talks about this woman RETIRING, instead of being outright fired.

QT

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#20 Cait

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 12:09 AM

QT said:

If it isn't about sex why is sex a part of it? There are lots of ways to exert power over people, and children are pretty powerless.


No it *is* about sex.  It is usually about a "power" fetish.  Those that need to feel powerful in order to become sexually aroused.  

It's complicated, as most fetishes are, but it is definitely about sex.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html




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