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Sexual Orientation and Pedophelia

Sexual Orientation Pedophilia Discussion Differences Sex

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#21 scherzo

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 03:29 AM

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I'm seeing 97% male offenders, not 70%.
And if 25% of the victims are little boys, that's, what - over double the proportion of homosexuals in the general population;
so, going by these numbers, does that mean then that there is roughly twice the chance if you are a male homosexual that you rape boys than than if you're a hetero man that you rape girls?
Only if you're not prepared to accept the argument that a man who's turned on by boys ISN'T homosexual. Since that particular argument requires me to pretend the word "homosexual" means something other than what it does...I would answer your question "yes". Just going by these numbers of course. ;)

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Well you still have to take into account personal orientation. The majority of pedophiles who molest boys are not interested in men or even teenaged boys - and in fact most identify themselves as Heterosexual and many have families - Molestation and pedophilia is USUALLY not about sex (Neither - for that matter - is Rape, but, there are exceptions), its about power and control. That doesn't care about orinentation it only cares about someone vulnerable and easy to hurt - while forcing them to 'trust' and do other things - spend time talking to foster kids and it'll give you the heebie jeebies!
Yeah we usually see the "molestation is about power not sex" angle appear mere moments after "uncomfortable" statistics about the proportion of male on male pedophilia are pointed out. When it was flatly stated above that pedophiles are more likely to be straight than gay, no one found it necessary to downplay the sexual component of pedophilia with this argument. Then again, anyone who has casually made such a charge against Hetero men, has already permanently disqualified themselves from saying "sex" isn't the issue.

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#22 Nikcara

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 03:49 AM

Sex isn't really the issue in rape.  If it were, chemical castration and such treatments would actually work, since they decrease sex drive.  However, it has been shown that they don't make a bit of difference in how likely they are to rape - they just make the perpitator not want to have sex.

Now yes, I understand that there are many ways to have power over a person.  But can you think of any way more initimate and therefore powerful than rape?  If you hit a person, they are not in control of the situation.  If you rape a person, they're not even in control of their own body.

Also, there appears to be the assumption that a child molestor will only target one gender.  The fact is there are child molesters who target both genders - that it's more a question of opportunity than anything else.  So would you really classify a man with a wife, kids, and convicted of molesting both girls and boys of being homosexual?
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#23 Spectacles

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 05:40 AM

If you do some browsing on the (upsetting and depressing) topic of child molestation, you'll find repeated references to the study by Abel and Harlow.

Now, since this is an underreported crime, I think it's hard to say that an extrapolation from any set of data on it is definitive. Still, this is interesting:

http://www.goodtouch...abousefacts.php

And this bit goes to the discussion here:




Quote

The Perpetrator

Offenders are not usually strangers to children. Approximately 90% of offenders are known to the child victim (Finkelhor, 1994).

There is no specific profile for a child molester. A child molester matches the US population in education, ethnicity, percentage married or formerly married, and religious observance (Abel & Harlow, 2001).

In one study, researchers found that 68% of molesters sexually abuse children in thier own families (Abel & Harlow, 2001).

It is estimated that approximately 3% of child molesters get caught (Abel et. al, 1987). Fewer than 1% are arrested, convicted and imprisoned (Russell, 1984).

According to Abel and Harlow (2001) in a study of 4000 child molesters, they found that the child molester who was severely sexually abused (50+ times), committed well over 100 more acts of child molestation than the never-abused molesters.

Abel et al. (1987) found that 377 extrafamilial child molesters sampled committed 48,297 acts against a total of 27,416 victims. Those who molested female children averaged 19.8 victims and those who molested boys averaged 150.2 victims. The 203 incest offenders in the group committed 15,668 acts against 361 victims. The 377 extrafamilial child molesters sampled committed 48,297 acts against a total of 27,416 victims.

Adolescent sex offenders commit 30-50% of child molestations and 20% of rapes (Murphy & Page, 2000). 1/3 to 1/2 began offending in adolescence (Prentky et al., 2000). 46% of juvenile sex offenders began offending under age 12 (Burton, 2000).

Of the pedophiles who molest girls, 21% also molest boys. Of those pedophiles who molest boys, 53% also molest girls (Abel & Harlow, 2001).

Studies have revealed that 60-80% of adult sex offenders begin offending as adolescents. Adolescents perpetrate 50% of sex offenses against boys, and 15-20% of offenses against girls. (Rasmussen, Buton, Chrisopherson, 1992)

70% of the men who molest boys rated themselves as heterosexual in their adult sexual preferences. These men are married, divorced, widowed, or living with an adult partner. 9% of those molesters who molest boys are equally heterosexual and homosexual and only 8% reported themselves as being exclusively homosexual (Abel & Harlow, 2001).

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#24 Chakoteya

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 05:52 AM

View PostNonny, on Oct 16 2006, 02:58 AM, said:

View PostRhea, on Oct 15 2006, 06:29 PM, said:

Sort of puts paid to the fundie view of gay males as pedophiles, doesn't it?  :blink:  :Oo:  :wacko:
You'd think so, wouldn't you, but folks who want excuses to hate gays, or any other group, for that matter, don't pay much attention to facts.   :(  :angry:

Nonny


What is says to me is that there is a small but sadly significant number of men who cannot control their urges.....

That makes me sad, as this usually leads to the victims being blamed for 'leading them on' if they are older. Obviously, little children cannot be blamed for adult behaviour.

What is it about the male design that makes it difficult for some to not act on their sexual impulses? Or is it nurture that makes them behave like that? And is there anything we can do to help them stop it?
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#25 Nittany Lioness

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 09:20 AM

!!! :lol: !!!  
The dog-earred ~not about sex~ mantra makes an appearance.
Good gravy, is that old canard still being trumpeted?
I thought that feminist bologny got relegated back to the bowels of "Women's Studies"  :sarcasm:  courses at Bryn Mawr once we hit the '80's.

And, you betcha, Scherzo - the thread's purpose and initial posts were entirely about pointing at the sexual orientation of the offenders.  Oopsie.   :Oo:

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#26 enTranced

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 09:25 AM

View PostSparkyCola, on Oct 17 2006, 12:41 AM, said:

It depends, I suppose, on your definition of 'sexually charged'. I think it's very significant that men are "stirred" very rapidly. It takes more than a bit of flirting or something erotic to turn on a woman, for a man it's easier. It's the same principle as the rape of adults. Men rape more women than women rape men.

Rape is a violently twisted sex drive. I have a pretty healthly sex drive but that doesn't mean I want to go out on a rape binge. Rape is about power and being sexualy turned on by your power over another human being a human being of either gender, that is why men will rape other men if there are no handy women available.

But sex drive? Healthy normal health drive? Men are like gas guzzling sports cars, we are sprinters blowing our *cough* wad in a fast burst of speed. Women are the hybrid sedan who can go miles and miles but just take a little longer to get there and half the fun is helping them get there and enjoying the fireworks at the end of the trip.

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#27 enTranced

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 09:30 AM

View PostCait, on Oct 17 2006, 05:09 AM, said:

QT said:

If it isn't about sex why is sex a part of it? There are lots of ways to exert power over people, and children are pretty powerless.


No it *is* about sex.  It is usually about a "power" fetish.  Those that need to feel powerful in order to become sexually aroused.  

It's complicated, as most fetishes are, but it is definitely about sex.

But they need the violence and the power to get to the sex. THAT is the twisted and downright nasty part.

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#28 Godeskian

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 09:38 AM

View PostenTranced, on Oct 17 2006, 03:25 PM, said:

Men are like gas guzzling sports cars, we are sprinters blowing our *cough* wad in a fast burst of speed. Women are the hybrid sedan who can go miles and miles but just take a little longer to get there

To paraphrase, there's some disagreement on that point

http://www.cbsnews.c...in2059405.shtml

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If you think sexual arousal happens faster for men than women, you might want to think again.

Healthy young men and women take the same amount of time — about 11-12 minutes -- to become sexually aroused, Canadian researchers report.

Quote

the researchers used thermal imaging cameras to read participants' genital temperature from a distance.

Unlike other techniques used to measure sexual arousal, thermal imaging technology doesn't require genital contact. It measures infrared radiation given off by the body.

Participants' genital temperature didn't change as they watched the neutral or funny videos. But their genital temperature increased as they watched the sexually explicit videos.

Men and women reached peak genital temperature while watching the sexually explicit videos in almost the same amount of time: about 11 minutes for men and 12 minutes for women.

The time difference is so small that it might have been due to chance, the study shows.

Genital temperature matched participants' subjective ratings of sexual arousal. That is, the higher their genital temperature, the more sexually aroused participants said they were.

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#29 Godeskian

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 09:41 AM

View PostenTranced, on Oct 17 2006, 03:30 PM, said:

But they need the violence and the power to get to the sex. THAT is the twisted and downright nasty part.

I'm not suggesting it's of the same level, but some forms of SM and bondage could be seen as the need for violence or power to achieve arousal.

I realise that rape is to SM what an blizzard is to an ice-cream cone, but there is a signifigant minority of people who have non-standard sexual kinks, including but not limited to violence and dominance.

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#30 enTranced

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 10:59 AM

^ Thanks for the link Gode, interesting stuff. I don't know if I agree with this study from my own (very much non-scientific) experience but it is a fun topic. :)

As to S&M Vs. Rape I agree with your blizzard and ice cream cone image. I have to say I am completly in the dark about S&M stuff. I haven't had any dealings with that stuff I don't have any objections to those who do choose travel those dark allys but I have no desire to explore them myself but I would point out that going to far down them could lead to criminal activity like rape.

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#31 Godeskian

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 11:17 AM

View PostenTranced, on Oct 17 2006, 04:59 PM, said:

^ Thanks for the link Gode, interesting stuff. I don't know if I agree with this study from my own (very much non-scientific) experience but it is a fun topic. :)

Agreed, maybe men just show their arousal more.

Quote

I have to say I am completly in the dark about S&M stuff.


As are most people. Unfortunately far too many people's sole exposure to the practice comes from shows like CSI which hardly portray the practice in an unbiased light.

Quote

but I would point out that going to far down them could lead to criminal activity like rape.

I'm not going to pretend to have any figures on the amount of people who do BDSM who are also rapists, but i'd be very surprised if the number was anythign above average.

People who engage in BDSM, from the mildly playfull to the extremely creepy are looking for a thrill, not a violation. The entire reason for the existence and cast iron obedience to things like safewords is to stop things from going too far.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me that the percentage was lower than average, as they've found a safe outlet for their urges with willing and consensual partners.

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#32 Cait

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 12:02 PM

View PostenTranced, on Oct 17 2006, 07:30 AM, said:

View PostCait, on Oct 17 2006, 05:09 AM, said:

QT said:

If it isn't about sex why is sex a part of it? There are lots of ways to exert power over people, and children are pretty powerless.


No it *is* about sex.  It is usually about a "power" fetish.  Those that need to feel powerful in order to become sexually aroused.  

It's complicated, as most fetishes are, but it is definitely about sex.

But they need the violence and the power to get to the sex. THAT is the twisted and downright nasty part.

enTranced

Well, yeah, that is part and parcel of a fetish.  A rapist can have any number of fetishes.  Seeing blood on the victim, or a black eye, or the marks on a woman's throat.. any number of things can be the trigger for sexual arousal.

Power isn't a fetish in the strict sense, but it certainly can fall under the umbrella of psychological states that are needed to induce arousal.

It's the same process for a Peeping Tom who needs to be peeping to get aroused.  Or an exhibitionist who needs to expose him/herself to become aroused.  A man who can't become aroused with his wife, and needs a prostitute.  This list is endless.  

Sexual deviancy can range from keeping your socks on during sex up to and including needing to kill your partner.  It's sick and twisted, but that is the nature of deviancy.

Pedophiles [I believe] are aroused by children for more than gender.  I think that's why there is so much cross over with offenders.  I think it has to do with the age of the victim not the gender at all.   That's probably why we get numbers like this and we don't make any accurate assumptions regarding what the numbers mean.  We're hung up in gender and orientation, while we leave aside the real common denominator in offenders--age of the victim.  The answer is in the age, not the gender of the victim.

Rape is another one of those things that our culture gets caught up in.  The old saying that it is not about sex and all.  It is about sex because sex is being forced.  It has to be about sex.  Violent sex to be sure, but it is sex.

Non-consent fantasies are among the most prevalent in our culture.  The ability of a man to simply 'take' what he wants without consideration of consequence for another human being is potent stuff.  Ask any Porn viewer.  

Sex is one of the most complex things we do when it comes to the psychology of it.  What triggers arousal in people is still a mystery to me and I've made a sort of study of the phenomena.  Rape is about sex and the power to take what is wanted.  There can be other fetishes associated with the non-consent, blood, bruises, screams, pleading, begging, humiliation of the victim, etc.. but it is all about sex and what turns the rapist on.

One of the mistakes we've made as a society is to deny this.  We deny it is about sex and so no one has studied the mechanism of arousal and what triggers it.  What makes some things more arousing than others?  Why do some men like big breasts and blondes, while others like Asian women.  It's a preference, but how are these preferences developed?  It's what triggers arousal, but no one wants to dissect this and get to there heart of the matter.  Some of it is benign to the object of arousal, but some of it is deadly.  

But make no mistake, it is all about sex.

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#33 Cait

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 12:09 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Oct 17 2006, 09:17 AM, said:

I'm not going to pretend to have any figures on the amount of people who do BDSM who are also rapists, but i'd be very surprised if the number was anythign above average.

I don't have any studies on it either, but my guess is this is another area where the archetype of the nasty Dominant who tortures his partner is just as inaccurate as the "all gays are pedophiles".

Not that it doesn't exist, but no more than in vanilla circles.  But I'll look around for some studies.  If I find any, I'll post a link.

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#34 enTranced

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 01:27 PM

View PostCait, on Oct 17 2006, 05:09 PM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Oct 17 2006, 09:17 AM, said:


I'm not going to pretend to have any figures on the amount of people who do BDSM who are also rapists, but i'd be very surprised if the number was anythign above average.

I don't have any studies on it either, but my guess is this is another area where the archetype of the nasty Dominant who tortures his partner is just as inaccurate as the "all gays are pedophiles".

Not that it doesn't exist, but no more than in vanilla circles.  But I'll look around for some studies.  If I find any, I'll post a link.

Please do. My wife and I like to play but not with this stuff* so I would be interested in a little education! :)

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#35 enTranced

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 01:31 PM

View PostCait, on Oct 17 2006, 05:02 PM, said:

Sexual deviancy can range from keeping your socks on during sex up to and including needing to kill your partner.  It's sick and twisted, but that is the nature of deviancy.

Excellent post! And I agree with all of it. However....about the socks...

Uh-Oh!  :blush:

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#36 Spectacles

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 01:44 PM

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enTranced: * - Our kink is more along the lines of Captain Kirk and the Green Skinned Orion Slave Girl stuff on even numbered days and Evil Wizard and Nubile Young Princess on odd numbered days. Trust me, once you've had geek you never go back!  :ninja:


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#37 Rhea

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 01:57 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Oct 17 2006, 11:44 AM, said:

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enTranced: * - Our kink is more along the lines of Captain Kirk and the Green Skinned Orion Slave Girl stuff on even numbered days and Evil Wizard and Nubile Young Princess on odd numbered days. Trust me, once you've had geek you never go back!  :ninja:


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#38 emsparks

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 02:02 PM

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#39 Cait

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 02:13 PM

View PostenTranced, on Oct 17 2006, 11:27 AM, said:

View PostCait, on Oct 17 2006, 05:09 PM, said:


I don't have any studies on it either, but my guess is this is another area where the archetype of the nasty Dominant who tortures his partner is just as inaccurate as the "all gays are pedophiles".

Not that it doesn't exist, but no more than in vanilla circles.  But I'll look around for some studies.  If I find any, I'll post a link.

Please do. My wife and I like to play but not with this stuff* so I would be interested in a little education! :)

enTranced

Well, I'll be honest I'm not sure if discussing sexual lifestyles and psychology is allowed around here.  But if I find any studies I'll link them.  So far, all I've found are blogs where power, rape and BDSM are talked about--but no actual studies.

Quote

* - Our kink is more along the lines of Captain Kirk and the Green Skinned Orion Slave Girl stuff on even numbered days and Evil Wizard and Nubile Young Princess on odd numbered days.

Well, since you bring it up-- [whether you were kidding or not  :devil: ]

There is an element of power even in such role playing.  One of the partners has power and the other tries to seduce the powerful one.  Or, the powerful one acts all powerful [LOL] over the young and innocent one.  

It's a power drama of sorts, and very much within the bounds of what is loosely under the umbrella of BDSM nowadays.  It's a physiological drama where partners assume certain roles, but the eroticism is in the fact that there is a power dynamic between the roles.  

Even the Knight in Shining Armour rescuing the Damsel in distress is all about the power of the Knight to actually rescue the Princess.  Power is, under most circumstances, potent and erotic.  We just don't recognize it as power in many cases.  


Rape and pedophilia take this concept of power to the extreme, but it is but one variation on a familiar theme.  Something went wrong in the wiring of these abusers.  They can't separate the role from reality any longer and are driven by the need to exercise power to feel the arousal they now crave.

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Oddly enough, I believe you!   :angel:

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Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
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#40 Godeskian

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 02:16 PM

View PostCait, on Oct 17 2006, 07:13 PM, said:

There is an element of power even in such role playing.  One of the partners has power and the other tries to seduce the powerful one.  Or, the powerful one acts all powerful [LOL] over the young and innocent one.

Oddly enough I was about to make a post pointing out that in both scenarios there are power games (Kirk and the Wizard being the most obvious 'powerful' characters)

Ah well, great minds and all  :cool:

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