Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Should God Be Sent To Jail?

Religion Criticism

  • Please log in to reply
66 replies to this topic

#21 EChatty

EChatty

    Lurker Extaordinaire

  • SuperMod
  • 22,747 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 12:12 PM

Anastashia said:

Roman Catholic tradition maintains that Mary always remained a virgin.
She only remained a virgin until the birth of Jesus. She had other children by Joseph after that.

#22 Anastashia

Anastashia

    Tyrant Matriarch and Pegan Too!

  • Islander
  • 11,777 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 01:51 PM

View PostChatterbox, on Oct 28 2006, 01:12 PM, said:

Anastashia said:

Roman Catholic tradition maintains that Mary always remained a virgin.
She only remained a virgin until the birth of Jesus. She had other children by Joseph after that.

Actually Chatty RC tradition disagrees maintaining that the "brothers and sisters" mentioned in the Bible were in fact cousins as such reference was traditional at the time.

In fact brothers and sisters could also refer to members of one's religious family as in the use of "brethern" when addressing a religious congregation where the people aren't genetically related to each other at all but are "brothers and sisters" in Christ.
The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

Posted Image


#23 Captain Jack

Captain Jack

    Where's the rum?

  • Islander
  • 14,914 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 02:26 PM

View PostCaithness, on Oct 28 2006, 08:03 AM, said:

So we're sending fathers to jail for the sins of their children?

Doesn't make sense, does it?

Quote

Anyhoo, good luck trying to handcuff him.

Heheh.  :howling:  Yup.  That'll go over real well. :D

View PostMurphy575, on Oct 28 2006, 08:58 AM, said:

View PostCaithness, on Oct 28 2006, 04:03 PM, said:

So we're sending fathers to jail for the sins of their children?

No. God was the one who 'makes' you gay (for example) you cant choose if your gay or not, you just are, or your not...

No.  God does not "make" a person gay.  There have been cases where married men would divorce their wives because they found a man they prefer to be with.  Happened to one of my relatives neighbors.  They've been married nearly 10 years and had a young son together.  One day the husband came home and told his wife he decided to he was gay.  Sounds like a choice to me.  After all, whether gay or straight, it doesn't matter.  We ALL choose our mates.  Not God.  And God gave us the freedom of choice because He felt we had a right to choose our own paths in life.  Whether they be right or wrong (in general), it was of our own choice and free will.

View PostChatterbox, on Oct 28 2006, 10:12 AM, said:

Anastashia said:

Roman Catholic tradition maintains that Mary always remained a virgin.
She only remained a virgin until the birth of Jesus. She had other children by Joseph after that.

True.  She did.  But she is still called "Virgin Mary" in reference to her giving birth to Jesus.  Pretty complicated.
Posted Image
689 Reasons to Defeat Barack Obama in 2012:

https://www.national...at-barack-obama

#24 Lin731

Lin731
  • Islander
  • 4,126 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 02:29 PM

Quote

No. God does not "make" a person gay. There have been cases where married men would divorce their wives because they found a man they prefer to be with. Happened to one of my relatives neighbors. They've been married nearly 10 years and had a young son together. One day the husband came home and told his wife he decided to he was gay. Sounds like a choice to me. After all, whether gay or straight, it doesn't matter. We ALL choose our mates. Not God. And God gave us the freedom of choice because He felt we had a right to choose our own paths in life. Whether they be right or wrong (in general), it was of our own choice and free will.

Sounds like someone who was always gay and didn't want to admit it Spidey. Probably because of the way society treats gays. Nature is full of examples of bi-sexual and homosexual animals. I'd also beg to differ with you on the "choice of mates" issue. When you were a child, just becoming aware of sexual feelings, did you "choose" which gender you were attracted to or where you simply attracted to one over the other? I think the whole concept of implying sexual orientation as a "lifestyle choice" or a "choice" of any sort is utter BS and is often used as a dodge of the real issue....Are people born to a particular orientation or not? We don't have to examine it if we merely chalk it up to a "lifestyle choice" do we?


One thing that I've always found interesting...God made Eve from the rib of Adam, correct? So that would mean that Adam and Eve's children would have had to mate with each other to propogate the species, correct? In which they've commited the sin of "incest".

Question, how and why would a perfect being, who has created man in his own image, make that creature capable of (in fact predisposed to) sin? How does a prefect creature make inperfect ones?

Edited by Lin731, 28 October 2006 - 02:36 PM.

Posted Image
Posted Image

#25 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 02:39 PM

Quote

Sounds like a choice to me.


Wrong.

The guy was gay  (or bi) all along.  Given the intense anti-gay pressure in American society, it's not surprising that many LGBT people don't honor their inherent sexuality until they've made a desperate effort to conform to society's expectation.  MY cousin and her wife have four children and three heterosexual marriages between them--and she and I have both known she was gay since we were teenagers.  

As to your next question--NOYGDB.   :angel:
Posted Image

#26 Caithness

Caithness

    Nemo me impune lacessit.

  • Islander
  • 4,941 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 02:50 PM

View PostMurphy575, on Oct 28 2006, 11:58 AM, said:

View PostCaithness, on Oct 28 2006, 04:03 PM, said:

So we're sending fathers to jail for the sins of their children?

No. God was the one who 'makes' you gay (for example) you cant choose if your gay or not, you just are, or your not...

that's debateable.
Posted Image

#27 Captain Jack

Captain Jack

    Where's the rum?

  • Islander
  • 14,914 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 02:56 PM

How can you acuse him of being bi or gay all along when you don't even know him?  He's dated many women, and even had girlie posters in the garage before he and his wife had a son.  You can't just assume a man was "hiding" he was gay by marrying a woman and having a child.  

The only point I was trying to make was that God does NOT decide who we are, how we live, or who we choose to partner up with.  We do.  I'm not going to debate, or discuss my views about gays on this or any other forum because it is too hot of an issue, and I don't want to go that deep into it.  

What I see more and more in society is that people do not want to take responsibility for their OWN actions.  Excuses like "God made me do it, or "It's not my fault" is just a way of avoiding guilt or self admission of a personal choice.  We all make choices every day.  Ultimately, we are responsible for our own actions.  Not God, not the devil, no one.  We choose our friends, our lovers, what we eat, say and do.
Posted Image
689 Reasons to Defeat Barack Obama in 2012:

https://www.national...at-barack-obama

#28 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 03:06 PM

Quote

How can you acuse him of being bi or gay

Why is that statement that someone is bi or gay an accusation?  An accusation is an assertion that someone has engaged in wrongdoing.

Quote

I'm not going to debate, or discuss my views about gays on this or any other forum because it is too hot of an issue, and I don't want to go that deep into it.


You're deeper than you know.  And there ain't no pony at the bottom.

Edited by waterpanther, 28 October 2006 - 03:15 PM.

Posted Image

#29 Anastashia

Anastashia

    Tyrant Matriarch and Pegan Too!

  • Islander
  • 11,777 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 03:15 PM

I'm game to continue the Virgin Mary discussion, which at least has less chance of personally upsetting a board member. But to do so we need our Greek and Aramaic scholars. I think we do actually have some of them aroung here somewhere.

Edit - It would probably also be helpful to have the perspective of some Jewish people in determining what paths Joseph and Mary might have taken re the consumation of their marriage in the light of their son's identity.

Edited by Anastashia, 28 October 2006 - 03:34 PM.

The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

Posted Image


#30 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,681 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 03:21 PM

View PostSpidey, on Oct 28 2006, 03:09 AM, said:

Humans have no right to judge God, and God can not be judged.  He is all-knowing, all-powerful, and pure good.  But He is also not one to be messed with.

That is your belief, and I'm going to try and be respectful of that...as respectful of it as I can, since I don't buy one word of it.

No right to judge GOD? Oh HELL NO! FTS! That's like saying children have no right to judge their parents...even the ones who get abused by their parents. They have no right to judge their parents, cause their parents made them...Don't buy it.

All-Knowing, powerful, ect...Reminds me of another person who thought that, and probably thought himself a GOD as well...Hitler. If GOD was all powerful he would've destroyed satan long ago, the fact that he hasn't means one of 2 things: Either he can't, in which case the all powerful is out, and he is in a fight for his life. Or he won't...in which case he is one sadistic SoB.

And as for now messing with him.

I fully intend, if I ever see the boy, to try my best to knock his block off. Like I said, Heaven itself will shake. Not mess with the boy....Bring him on. I got his all powerful right here.

Sorry, that didn't come out very respectful. But to say we should be mindless drones, cause he is all powerful, not to be questioned, or messed with...just didn't sit well with me.

The mere fact that we have free will, means we have the RIGHT to question, and if we so desire, to Judge....
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#31 Lin731

Lin731
  • Islander
  • 4,126 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 03:33 PM

Quote

How can you acuse him of being bi or gay all along when you don't even know him? He's dated many women, and even had girlie posters in the garage before he and his wife had a son. You can't just assume a man was "hiding" he was gay by marrying a woman and having a child.

"Accuse" implies wrongdoing Spidey, so I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm merely looking at what you wrote and what I've seen firsthand. My sister dated guys too but guess what? She's gay and I knew she was gay when we were kids. One of my best guy friends growing up sent me presents and cards and asked me out regularly but guess what? He was actually gay and trying NOT to be. We all knew he was gay and he knew we knew, he simply didn't want to deal with the fallout of it, so he dated girls for years until he finally couldn't stand living a lie anymore.

Quote

The only point I was trying to make was that God does NOT decide who we are, how we live, or who we choose to partner up with. We do. I'm not going to debate, or discuss my views about gays on this or any other forum because it is too hot of an issue, and I don't want to go that deep into it.

Really, did God tell you that personally? If not, than you really don't know what God did or didn't "make" people one way or another. Does God make people tall or short? Blonde or brunette, blue-eyed, green-eyed or brown-eyed or did we "choose" that as well? Why is it when I ask the simplest question of those that claim that sexual orientation is a "choice" they invariably refuse to answer it? Did you pick your sexual preference or where simply attracted to one gender and not the other?

Quote

What I see more and more in society is that people do not want to take responsibility for their OWN actions. Excuses like "God made me do it, or "It's not my fault" is just a way of avoiding guilt or self admission of a personal choice. We all make choices every day. Ultimately, we are responsible for our own actions. Not God, not the devil, no one. We choose our friends, our lovers, what we eat, say and do.

I find this comment highly ironic coming from the habitual defender of other people's bad behavior...Oh and BTW...I think "taking responsibility" is a two-way street. Personally, I think some hetrosexuals need to take responsibility for their irrational fear, hatred etc....of gays. Even if being gay was a choice they made, who am I or anyone else to force our lifestyle choices off on others?

Edited by Lin731, 28 October 2006 - 03:35 PM.

Posted Image
Posted Image

#32 Rhea

Rhea

  • Islander
  • 16,433 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 03:37 PM

View PostSpidey, on Oct 28 2006, 12:56 PM, said:

How can you acuse him of being bi or gay all along when you don't even know him?  He's dated many women, and even had girlie posters in the garage before he and his wife had a son.  You can't just assume a man was "hiding" he was gay by marrying a woman and having a child.  

The only point I was trying to make was that God does NOT decide who we are, how we live, or who we choose to partner up with.  We do.  I'm not going to debate, or discuss my views about gays on this or any other forum because it is too hot of an issue, and I don't want to go that deep into it.  

What I see more and more in society is that people do not want to take responsibility for their OWN actions.  Excuses like "God made me do it, or "It's not my fault" is just a way of avoiding guilt or self admission of a personal choice.  We all make choices every day.  Ultimately, we are responsible for our own actions.  Not God, not the devil, no one.  We choose our friends, our lovers, what we eat, say and do.

And yet, I'm pretty sure that you don't pay a penalty for "choosing" to be a hetersexual, do you? Or are you just more "loved" by God than homosexuals?  :eek2: And has God personally spoken to you? And has he confirmed this for you, or does God speak to other people with a different message?

Edited by Rhea, 28 October 2006 - 08:24 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#33 Mr Dust

Mr Dust
  • Islander
  • 2,200 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 03:54 PM

A little off topic entertainment, to help break any tension

Attached File  Friday_and_Monday.wmv   779.94K   226 downloads
[Insert Signature Here]

#34 BklnScott

BklnScott

    FKA ScottEVill

  • Islander
  • 18,142 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 03:56 PM

View PostLost Cause, on Oct 28 2006, 11:01 AM, said:

^Ditto.  Seen too much in my life to know that we're all chance happenings and that this existance is all there is.

Whereas I've seen too much in my life to believe in supernatural explanations for natural phenomena.  Nothing exists beyond nature -- only beyond our understanding of nature.  

As far as "chance" goes -- The religious tend to see nihilism in the universe as revealed through science.  I don't.  I see a great deal of meaning, and beauty, in a universe that seems to exist to evolve complicated systems from simpler ones.  Then again, I place a premium on believing things for which there is objective evidence, and not much on blind faith.  

spidey said:

No.  God does not "make" a person gay.  There have been cases where married men would divorce their wives because they found a man they prefer to be with.  Happened to one of my relatives neighbors.  They've been married nearly 10 years and had a young son together.  One day the husband came home and told his wife he decided to he was gay.  Sounds like a choice to me.  After all, whether gay or straight, it doesn't matter.  We ALL choose our mates.

Who we mate with (aka, have relationships with) is a choice, you're right about that.  What gender we are attracted to is not.  

And the only way you could know it was, Spidey, is if that was a choice you, yourself, made.  Did you choose to be hetero, Spidey?  Because that would mean that, if you so chose, you could will yourself to be attracted to members of the same-sex.  Do you believe that's possible?  Or is your attraction to the opposite sex hard-wired (excuse the pun)?

I know I didn't make a choice to be gay.  I know none of my friends made the choice to be gay.  On the contrary, several of us chose to fight the hand we were dealt, because we didn't want to have the shame, and the discrimination that go along with being gay heaped on us.  

But that doesn't work.  No matter how hard you fight your orientation, you can't change it... and trying hurts not just yourself, but those you enlist to help you perpetrate the fraud (e.g., your friend's wife... my ex-fiance... etc.)

Does that help you understand?

Edited to make correction indicated down-thread by Tennyson

Edited by ScottEVill, 29 October 2006 - 02:47 PM.

Quote

There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#35 ilexx

ilexx
  • Islander
  • 2,791 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 06:52 PM

I have this strange feeling that somewhere within the original question itself there is a misconception:

Whether or not there is God, a God, gods, some sort of allmighty or just very impressive spirituality or another is debateable as long as there is no solid proof for either theory.

That there most certainly is not any supernatural universal power acting according to the ideas, principles or demands of any kind of religion made by men is however not debateable.

Most religious texts from antiquity to modern times are nothing else but compilations of ideologies delivered in the hope to make human society work a little bit better. Most - no, scratch that and make it rather all of them have failed sooner or later, some more, some less, but they failed in achieving this high ideal, probably because it simply is not achieveable.

So: aside from the technical difficulties in sending an entity/being/power that is clearly out of your league to jail... Why should you condemn or blame anyone/anything/whatever for the ideas of mankind?

As to God's portray in the Old or New Testament: it was made by people living in their own times. Their moral conceptions, beliefs and needs were definitely not ours. People and societies evolve - and so does their image of God...
While the Greek gods quite clearly had no problems whatsoever with homosexuality, the monotheistic god of Hebrew, Christian and Muslim religion has some issues with it. That doesn't say anything about homosexuality being good, bad, natural, unnatural etc., it only says something about the way the Greek and  societies of the Near East were functioning at one point in history.
And whether or not we applaud the one or other model says something about us.

#36 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 06:54 PM

View Postilexx, on Oct 28 2006, 04:52 PM, said:

While the Greek gods quite clearly had no problems whatsoever with homosexuality, the monotheistic god of Hebrew, Christian and Muslim religion has some issues with it. That doesn't say anything about homosexuality being good, bad, natural, unnatural etc., it only says something about the way the Greek and  societies of the Near East were functioning at one point in history.
And whether or not we applaud the one or other model says something about us.

What a fantastic way of putting it!   :cool:
Posted Image

#37 Captain Jack

Captain Jack

    Where's the rum?

  • Islander
  • 14,914 posts

Posted 28 October 2006 - 08:34 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Oct 28 2006, 01:21 PM, said:

View PostSpidey, on Oct 28 2006, 03:09 AM, said:

Humans have no right to judge God, and God can not be judged.  He is all-knowing, all-powerful, and pure good.  But He is also not one to be messed with.

That is your belief, and I'm going to try and be respectful of that...as respectful of it as I can, since I don't buy one word of it.

No right to judge GOD? Oh HELL NO! FTS! That's like saying children have no right to judge their parents...even the ones who get abused by their parents. They have no right to judge their parents, cause their parents made them...Don't buy it.

All-Knowing, powerful, ect...Reminds me of another person who thought that, and probably thought himself a GOD as well...Hitler. If GOD was all powerful he would've destroyed satan long ago, the fact that he hasn't means one of 2 things: Either he can't, in which case the all powerful is out, and he is in a fight for his life. Or he won't...in which case he is one sadistic SoB.

This is actually a commonly asked question.  "If God is so good, great, and powerful, why doesn't he just destroy Satan?  The answer is he CAN, but he WON'T.  He chose not to.  Why?  Because in order to better know love, you need to know hate.  In order to know a lot of things means that life can not be one sided.  I have a link for you if you would like that better explains things than I can about this.  Some good questions, and logical answers:

http://www.boundless...s/a0000754.html

To compare God to Hitler thinking he is a god, is in err.  Hitler is man, and Man can NOT be God.  Why?  Because Man is flawed, imperfect.

Quote

And as for now messing with him.

I fully intend, if I ever see the boy, to try my best to knock his block off. Like I said, Heaven itself will shake. Not mess with the boy....Bring him on. I got his all powerful right here.

It's obvious you have some deep and personal issues with Him.  And I'm no therapist.  LotS, I like you and respect you, so what I say, I'm not trying to piss you off at all.

I too have had issues with God.  Why did He let my dad die a long, and painful death?  Why couldn't I have had a better relationship with my dad?  Why did God let me be born with underdeveloped eyes?  Why doesn't God help me and my family?  Etc.

My personal experience has found that it is not good to fight with God.  Question Him?  Yes.  It's better to let Him decide than it is for me.  And thiat didn't happen for me over night either.

Quote

Sorry, that didn't come out very respectful. But to say we should be mindless drones, cause he is all powerful, not to be questioned, or messed with...just didn't sit well with me.

Ah, but you see, God does not want us to be mindless drones.  That's why He gave us freedom, and the ability to choose.  And you can mess with God, or at least you can try.  But you won't win.  It's His universe after all. :D

Quote

The mere fact that we have free will, means we have the RIGHT to question, and if we so desire, to Judge....

Yes you can.
Posted Image
689 Reasons to Defeat Barack Obama in 2012:

https://www.national...at-barack-obama

#38 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,302 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 12:58 AM

I won't debate Christian theology, since there are many here who will do that, and since I don't feel it my place when there are others more suited to that task.

However - on the question of God crushing Satan... He cannot, if His purpose of guiding us to our own "godhood" is to be fulfilled.  LoTS has a signature stating his absolute belief in the devil's reality. The reality is (imho) that the devil is none other than our own weaker natures, and those obstacles in life that we don't like for whatever reason.  The obstacles in life - natural disasters and disease - are checks against our arrogance, and reminders of the balance and preciousness of life.  All other obstacles are ones human ingenuity can defeat if we willed to do so... Murder, hate, envy, thievery, predatorialness... these are imps of humanity - not a devil from somewhere else, but a devil in our own  natures - defeatable by our own selves. Before we complain about God's capriciousness let's look at our own. Do we give ourselves permission to be harsh and unforgiving, hateful, envious, self-abusing? Do we avoid causing harm to others through uncommitted sex? Do we prevent our own demise by avoiding cigarettes and drugs and alcohol? Do we respect our interdependence on other life on the planet?  If we don't crush that inner demon that tells us to do even ONE of these things, why do we suppose that God will crush the devil for us? Why do we believe that He is God and fail to remember that we are created to be in His image?  Yes - God is strong enough to crush the devil anytime he wants.  But that would mean crushing US - since it is we ourselves that create the devil and give him life. God doesn't want to crush US... so instead, from time to time he sends someone to help us figure out new ways to crush that ole devil ourselves. God does His part... when do we do ours?

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#39 Mark

Mark
  • Islander
  • 5,269 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 01:07 AM

Mark: ^ (Bows to the Queen once again) Dang, those are profound thoughts, QT.
We do our part when we do what we know deep in our hearts is the right thing. We do our part when we share our profound beliefs with others (as you've just done) We do our part when we help people (including ourselves, but not too much so) in everyday life. We do our part by living our lives the best we can, and trying to make the world a better place for those around us by our actions.

There are a thousand ways we CAN do our part. The question is...will we?



(more to come on this by me, I'm sure)

Edited by Mark, 29 October 2006 - 01:09 AM.

Mark
Discussion is an exchange of knowledge: argument is an exchange of ignorance.
Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to cope with it.
APOGEE MESSAGE BOARD

#40 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,302 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 01:37 AM

*curtsies to Mark for his wise response*

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght




Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Religion, Criticism

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users