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Should God Be Sent To Jail?

Religion Criticism

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#41 tennyson

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 02:21 AM

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And the only way you could know it was, G, is if that was a choice you, yourself, made. Did you choose to be hetero, G? Because that would mean that, if you so chose, you could will yourself to be attracted to members of the same-sex. Do you believe that's possible? Or is your attraction to the opposite sex hard-wired (excuse the pun)?

ScottEVill, that wasn't anyone with a G in their name, that was Spidey.

Edited by tennyson, 29 October 2006 - 02:22 AM.

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#42 Hibblette

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 09:41 AM

The biggest misconception here is that God is being seen in human form.  To me this is always a misstep for mankind and it's because of that one line "Created in his image."

I have always took that to mean the one thing that is important to the Almighty in regards to we humans and that is our souls.

So beings I see the Almighty as a powerful force of nature, which includes the itty bitty Atom and the things that make it up I would say I don't want to blame the Almighty for things that we humans do.  Typical case of a pre teen not taking responsibility.

In regards to the devil I have always contended that the devil is only as strong as we allow.  

A lot of the stories in the bible are stories that are of examples-a guideline if you will of how one should try to live their life.  The serpant is punished for what he/she did but Eve is punished because she didn't have to do it.  Same applies to Adam.

I do not discount the bible for it's validity of how one should strive towards the worshipping of God for one-It has been a great moral compass for a very long time through very bad times and it has survived.  And again the misinterpretations of ignorant lowly humans of these tomes (the old and the new) is usually when Religion (man made by the way) goes awry.  Cases in point-Spanish Inquisition, The Roundheads of England, the Puritans of the Colonies and our current atmosphere here in the good ol' USA.
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#43 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 11:04 PM

View PostSpidey, on Oct 28 2006, 08:34 PM, said:

This is actually a commonly asked question.  "If God is so good, great, and powerful, why doesn't he just destroy Satan?  The answer is he CAN, but he WON'T.  He chose not to.  Why?  Because in order to better know love, you need to know hate.  In order to know a lot of things means that life can not be one sided.

An interesting answer, but the logic behind it seems flawed to me. In order to know, or appreciate good, one must be exposed to evil? Sounds good in theory, but that's about it. It's like telling a child: "We're going to let this child molestor rape you now, so that you know evil and can really know good and appreciate it. I don't buy it.

Or telling parents that just lost their child: "Well now you can truly appreciate life, cause you've experienced death."

Yes, some parents might let their child touch a hot stove...so that the child learns not to do that again. But I would rather they merely demonstrated the danger, perhaps by letting the child feel the heat from the stove, and let him see the water boiling.

And if this was just humans we were talking about, I might be able to buy that logic...since human's are imperfect, and let's face it...some are just downright messed up. But GOD is suppose to be better then that.


Quote

It's obvious you have some deep and personal issues with Him.  And I'm no therapist.

Was I THAT obvious about it? lol.  ;)

Quote

I too have had issues with God.  Why did He let my dad die a long, and painful death?  Why couldn't I have had a better relationship with my dad?  Why did God let me be born with underdeveloped eyes?  Why doesn't God help me and my family?  Etc.

Sorry to hear about your dad.

Quote

My personal experience has found that it is not good to fight with God.  Question Him?  Yes.  It's better to let Him decide than it is for me.  And thiat didn't happen for me over night either.

I guess that's my main problem. I don't like letting ANYONE decide things for me. I like making up my own mind, and my own decisions. I bow down to no man, woman, or GOD. What you see is what you get. And the one person I would've bowed down for has long since been gone, and yes I do hold GOD responsible for that.

Quote

Ah, but you see, God does not want us to be mindless drones.  That's why He gave us freedom, and the ability to choose.  And you can mess with God, or at least you can try.  But you won't win.  It's His universe after all. :D

I'll be sure to remind him of that, if I ever see the boy. And as for not wining...I've heard that before. Sometimes it comes true, other times I've surprised those that have said it. I might not win a confrontation between me and Him...But I'll say this. If He thought he had a problem with Lucifer, He hasn't seen anything yet.

lol. Probably not a real good thing to be associating myself in the same category as Satan...Not saying I would try and rebel and cause evil...I just want to have a word or two with the boy...and as I said before, it won't be pretty.
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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#44 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 11:09 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on Oct 29 2006, 12:58 AM, said:

The reality is (imho) that the devil is none other than our own weaker natures, and those obstacles in life that we don't like for whatever reason.  The obstacles in life - natural disasters and disease - are checks against our arrogance, and reminders of the balance and preciousness of life.  All other obstacles are ones human ingenuity can defeat if we willed to do so... Murder, hate, envy, thievery, predatorialness... these are imps of humanity - not a devil from somewhere else, but a devil in our own  natures - defeatable by our own selves.

QT

A very interesting idea. And for all I know it could be true. But if we are made in GOD's image, then that would mean that GOD also has these imps...Not a very pleasant thought.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#45 Mark

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 11:49 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Oct 29 2006, 10:09 PM, said:

View PostQueenTiye, on Oct 29 2006, 12:58 AM, said:

The reality is (imho) that the devil is none other than our own weaker natures, and those obstacles in life that we don't like for whatever reason.  The obstacles in life - natural disasters and disease - are checks against our arrogance, and reminders of the balance and preciousness of life.  All other obstacles are ones human ingenuity can defeat if we willed to do so... Murder, hate, envy, thievery, predatorialness... these are imps of humanity - not a devil from somewhere else, but a devil in our own  natures - defeatable by our own selves.

QT

A very interesting idea. And for all I know it could be true. But if we are made in GOD's image, then that would mean that GOD also has these imps...Not a very pleasant thought.

Mark: We may be God-like...but we ARE NOT God.  :look:
Mark
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#46 MuseZack

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 12:07 AM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Oct 30 2006, 04:09 AM, said:

View PostQueenTiye, on Oct 29 2006, 12:58 AM, said:

The reality is (imho) that the devil is none other than our own weaker natures, and those obstacles in life that we don't like for whatever reason.  The obstacles in life - natural disasters and disease - are checks against our arrogance, and reminders of the balance and preciousness of life.  All other obstacles are ones human ingenuity can defeat if we willed to do so... Murder, hate, envy, thievery, predatorialness... these are imps of humanity - not a devil from somewhere else, but a devil in our own  natures - defeatable by our own selves.

QT

A very interesting idea. And for all I know it could be true. But if we are made in GOD's image, then that would mean that GOD also has these imps...Not a very pleasant thought.

LotS.  This may help explain a few things.

http://www.theonion....tent/node/28484
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#47 Mark

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 12:24 AM

View PostMuseZack, on Oct 29 2006, 11:07 PM, said:

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Oct 30 2006, 04:09 AM, said:

View PostQueenTiye, on Oct 29 2006, 12:58 AM, said:

The reality is (imho) that the devil is none other than our own weaker natures, and those obstacles in life that we don't like for whatever reason.  The obstacles in life - natural disasters and disease - are checks against our arrogance, and reminders of the balance and preciousness of life.  All other obstacles are ones human ingenuity can defeat if we willed to do so... Murder, hate, envy, thievery, predatorialness... these are imps of humanity - not a devil from somewhere else, but a devil in our own  natures - defeatable by our own selves.

QT

A very interesting idea. And for all I know it could be true. But if we are made in GOD's image, then that would mean that GOD also has these imps...Not a very pleasant thought.

LotS.  This may help explain a few things.

http://www.theonion....tent/node/28484

Mark: We can rarely diagnose ourselves, Zack. I think it's arrogant to believe we can somehow diagnose a God who's exsistance hasn't even been established scientifically, and who only lives through his believers.

Edited by Mark, 30 October 2006 - 12:25 AM.

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#48 QueenTiye

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 12:40 AM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Oct 29 2006, 11:09 PM, said:

View PostQueenTiye, on Oct 29 2006, 12:58 AM, said:

The reality is (imho) that the devil is none other than our own weaker natures, and those obstacles in life that we don't like for whatever reason.  The obstacles in life - natural disasters and disease - are checks against our arrogance, and reminders of the balance and preciousness of life.  All other obstacles are ones human ingenuity can defeat if we willed to do so... Murder, hate, envy, thievery, predatorialness... these are imps of humanity - not a devil from somewhere else, but a devil in our own  natures - defeatable by our own selves.

QT

A very interesting idea. And for all I know it could be true. But if we are made in GOD's image, then that would mean that GOD also has these imps...Not a very pleasant thought.


Mark already said this better, but I'll just mention something I already said:

Me said:

However - on the question of God crushing Satan... He cannot, if His purpose of guiding us to our own "godhood" is to be fulfilled.

A child being allowed to stumble and fall (safely) on his way to his mom or dad's waiting arms may well wonder why mom and dad don't just come and pick him up.  But he sure is proud when he takes those first real steps successfully and hears mom and dad cheering....

QT

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#49 Mark

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 12:46 AM

QueenTiye:

Quote

Mark already said this better, but I'll just mention something I already said:

QUOTE(Me)
However - on the question of God crushing Satan... He cannot, if His purpose of guiding us to our own "godhood" is to be fulfilled.


Mark: ... :blush: There is no way I said it better, QT...but thank you anyway.  :)

Edited by Mark, 30 October 2006 - 02:31 AM.

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#50 MuseZack

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 12:58 AM

View PostMark, on Oct 30 2006, 05:24 AM, said:

View PostMuseZack, on Oct 29 2006, 11:07 PM, said:

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Oct 30 2006, 04:09 AM, said:

View PostQueenTiye, on Oct 29 2006, 12:58 AM, said:

The reality is (imho) that the devil is none other than our own weaker natures, and those obstacles in life that we don't like for whatever reason.  The obstacles in life - natural disasters and disease - are checks against our arrogance, and reminders of the balance and preciousness of life.  All other obstacles are ones human ingenuity can defeat if we willed to do so... Murder, hate, envy, thievery, predatorialness... these are imps of humanity - not a devil from somewhere else, but a devil in our own  natures - defeatable by our own selves.

QT

A very interesting idea. And for all I know it could be true. But if we are made in GOD's image, then that would mean that GOD also has these imps...Not a very pleasant thought.

LotS.  This may help explain a few things.

http://www.theonion....tent/node/28484

Mark: We can rarely diagnose ourselves, Zack. I think it's arrogant to believe we can somehow diagnose a God who's exsistance hasn't even been established scientifically, and who only lives through his believers.

Mark, you do get that the Onion is humor, right?  You know, like the article that had a federal judge find God in violation of antitrust laws and ordered Him to break up into smaller dieties?
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#51 Mark

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 01:01 AM

MuseZack:

Quote

Mark, you do get that the Onion is humor, right? You know, like the article that had a federal judge find God in violation of antitrust laws and ordered Him to break up into smaller dieties?
Mark: These days...it's sometimes hard to tell when people are serious, and when they aren't.   :p ...Except with me...I'm looney the majority of the time.
To answer your question...I could sort of tell it was satirical...but it bordered on Satanical.  Understand my confusion?  :wacko:

(breaks into song and dance) You say it's satirical, I say it's Satanical. Satirical, Satanical, let's call the whole thing off!

Edited by Mark, 30 October 2006 - 02:32 AM.

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Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to cope with it.
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#52 JamesValEson

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 07:44 AM

Well, I just got to this thread, and just think somebody thought Way too much about those 4 points listed at the top of the thread.

It reminds me of some of the people who play (or in most cases, don't play, but are just sucking on sour grapes or something) the card game that I play, who go thourgh and Try to find something to nitpick about in the rules, but just end up looking like silly to those of us who understand ( or understand enough) the rules.

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#53 Bobby

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 10:49 AM

No, poor god doesn't need a jail, he needs a therapist.  Anyone who would create people to worship him needs massive loads of self help.  It's beyond pathetic.....

Other than that, Lord of Sword, Lin, ScottEvill, Waterpanther, Rhea, and Josh have summed up my feelings.




God is only flawed because the people who came up with the notion are flawed.    

Only the followers who try to force their religion on others should be locked up

Although, you can keep god locked up in your head.  Just ignore the voice that tells you to do the right thing..........New Age BS.

Edited by Life for Rent, 30 October 2006 - 10:55 AM.


#54 Themis

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 12:25 PM

View PostLife for Rent, on Oct 30 2006, 03:49 PM, said:

No, poor god doesn't need a jail, he needs a therapist.  Anyone who would create people to worship him needs massive loads of self help.  It's beyond pathetic.....

Yeah, I've always kind of felt that way.  A god of the whole freakin' universe needs the worship of the sentinent beings of Earth???  Which may be why I've loved the not-so-subtle Trek takes on the subject.  

That whole idea comes down to us from people with little experience outside their own migratory area and who had no concept of the planet as a whole - just their little corner of it and their "personal" relationship with a god or gods who had time for a "personal" relationship with them, not a god or gods (or whatever) who had a whole universe to worry about.   I suspect that the need most religious people have for religion today is that the whole universe and their fairly insignificant place in it is simply too much to wrap their minds around.  

Back to some of the original questions, I've always heard that Mary (if she even existed) was pretty young, but that was common practice then as I recall.  What made a girl old enough to marry was hitting puberty.  Isn't that true in tribal cultures today??  Been awhile since I studied this stuff.

And I've never, even in my believing days, thought that everyone being "children of god" made us brothers and sisters in the biological, sharing DNA sense.

I find the original questions a good jumping off point for discussions, which was probably the intent.

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#55 SparkyCola

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 12:31 PM

Quote

For the record, I find this thread exceedingly offensive. Disclaimer or no disclaimer....

I find the thought of blind faith offensive. Ok - not really, but I'm afraid I can't agree with this Spidey. As a Christian I am encouraged by the Bible and even more so by myself to question what I believe. In the Bible it says 'If people have questions about your faith, answer them with respect and calm' - what it says about being offended by things is 'turn the other cheek'.

I personally don't think Christians should be offended when people ask genuine questions and take a genuine interest in Christianity. It's natural to ask questions. The disclaimer serves as proof that this thread was made out of curiosity and not hostility.

Therefore I ask you - what do you find exceedingly offensive? Seems like a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. But you might just disagree with me on the above points, which is fine.

That aside I think the logical flaws in each argument have been satisfactorily exposed without my input.

God did create people who worship him. He also created people who hate him. Where's the ego problem here? He created people who have their own views - some people have the view that the one who created them is worth worshipping. Is that such a big deal after all?

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#56 ilexx

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 12:58 PM

View PostLife for Rent, on Oct 30 2006, 04:49 PM, said:

Anyone who would create people to worship him needs massive loads of self help.  It's beyond pathetic.....

It is however a lot more probable that man created God... :lol: So he/she could worship, adore, spread the word... Gave them something to do other than hunting and looking for berries etc. in the old days :D !

#57 emsparks

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 01:24 PM

AND now a completely different idea:

You ask should God be incarceratedÖ

I submit to you that he already is.

I mean think about it.

God is omnipresent: there is no place he can go that he isnít already.

God is omniscient: There is nothing he does not know already: nothing new, nothing to wonder at.

And please donít even think about mankindís so-called free will. Mankindís so-called free will is a function of that personís engram, their parental conditioning, and the ambient conditions. There is nothing free about it.

Even if there is free will, God has presided over an infinite multitude of creatures of all stripes, there is not an out come, a chain of events that he has not seen, and will not see again.

Because God is infallible, he can not forgetÖ

Sounds like a prison to me.
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#58 Bobby

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 01:30 PM

Quote

God did create people who worship him. He also created people who hate him. Where's the ego problem here? He created people who have their own views - some people have the view that the one who created them is worth worshipping. Is that such a big deal after all?

Sparky

Creating children and telling them to love me or else be sent to hell reeks of ego and abuse.

#59 woody000

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 01:43 PM

I haven't got time to read the thread, or to give a very detailed reply, but I'll say something on each point.

View PostMurphy575, on Oct 27 2006, 11:40 PM, said:

Point One:
It is proven, that whether you are gay or straight, is a matter out of your own control. I don't think anyone can argue that point. Being gay is seen as a sin. God created everything we see, including us. In that respect god created the gay person, thus god sinned.

Glossing over the fact that it isn't proven and many Christians wouldn't believe it's proven. (Besides, if someone stabs you in the street, you suffer but haven't made any bad choice yourself to get you there. Sin in the world and environment can impact on you. Not a very nice analogy, but it's a quick one. ) Glossing over the fact that many Christians don't believe being gay as a sin... some would say acting on gay impulses is the sin for a start, and some would say it's not a sin at all.

Glossing over all that, it's still a contradiction- if being gay is a choice, then God didn't create them gay. If they were born gay, then it can be put down to sin... or else you can not take the bible literally and pronounce that acting on homosexual impulses isn't really a sin. Yeah... so a lot of problems with that paragraph lol.

Quote

Point Two:
We are all children of god. God blesses marriage. We all know that marrying your biological sister (or brother), is a sin. If we are all gods children, in the same respect, we are all brothers and sisters. God blesses the marriage of any two persons of the opposite sex, thus blessing a sinful act.

That's a weakness of language. A brother and sister in God is different to an earthly brother and sister, they just have similar qualities which makes us equate the two. And who says God really blesses the marriage of any two persons? People often aren't in touch enough with God to know.

Quote

Point Three:
Jesus was the son of god. Mary was Jesus mother, and God his father. Mary was 13 at the time of giving birth to Jesus. It is a sinful act, to have sex with a minor. Granted, as god is so powerful he didn't need to actually have sex with Mary. But is it really fair to put the whole world onto one 13 year old girl?

God knows who was the right person, in the right place, at the right time. Age is irrelvant really, it's maturity and the way the person would actually respond (which God can see) that matters. Age is really just an approximate indication, especially when you're God and know and see everything. The sex thing is nonsense as stated in the original paragraph.

Quote

Point Four:
As Jesus was the son of Mary, and the son of God, it is right to assume, that God and Mary where his parents. It is a sin to have sex (thus have children) outside of wedlock. What happened to Mrs. God? As far as we know, God didn't marry Mary before he conceived with her. IF god did marry before having a child, then who blessed it?

0.0 Ok, that's just silly. Each one's getting sillier. God is god, not a human being. They didn't have sex. There is no Mrs. God. You could argue that God doesn't even really have a sex, though he's often called father- roles of parents have changed throughout time... the point's really debatable.

Quote

I am not nit picking. If you think about it, out of the above, they are quite serious offences. For one, he conceived out of wedlock. Two he put the weight of the whole world, onto one 13 year old girl. Three, he blesses sinful marriages (any marriage is sinful, because we are all brothers and sisters). God is guilty of committing multiple sins against humanity as a whole.

Should he be sent to Jail?

No, nit picking isn't the phrase. The phrase is "dealing in absurdity".

I haven't got time to come back and argue any points; just giving my opinion.

Edited by woody000, 30 October 2006 - 01:45 PM.


#60 Drew

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 02:21 PM

View PostJamesValEson, on Oct 30 2006, 06:44 AM, said:

Well, I just got to this thread, and just think somebody thought Way too much about those 4 points listed at the top of the thread.

And I was thinking it was someone who thought too little.  :cool:

Quote

Point One:
It is proven, that whether you are gay or straight, is a matter out of your own control. I don't think anyone can argue that point. Being gay is seen as a sin. God created everything we see, including us. In that respect god created the gay person, thus god sinned.

Point one: nowhere in the Christian scriptures does it say that being gay is a sin. The scriptures do state in a few places that it is sinful for someone to engage in sexual acts with a member of the same sex. (Though Jesus himself never addressed that issue and talked a lot more about servanthood and helping the poor and the needy and the oppressed.) But to say that being gay is a sin -- that is, to say that a gay person sins just by existing -- that is an evil lie.


Quote

Point Two:
We are all children of god. God blesses marriage. We all know that marrying your biological sister (or brother), is a sin. If we are all gods children, in the same respect, we are all brothers and sisters. God blesses the marriage of any two persons of the opposite sex, thus blessing a sinful act.

We are all children of God in the spiritual sense, not the biological sense. The taboo was against sex with biological siblings. Therefore your point is in error.

Quote

Point Three:
Jesus was the son of god. Mary was Jesus mother, and God his father. Mary was 13 at the time of giving birth to Jesus. It is a sinful act, to have sex with a minor. Granted, as god is so powerful he didn't need to actually have sex with Mary. But is it really fair to put the whole world onto one 13 year old girl?

That girl was willing. She said so. Your statements about having sex with minors are not material to your final point. Besides the fact that the concept of "legal minors" was several thousand years in the future. And that while we tend to treat 13-year-olds in our culture like irresponsible children (and they often act like it, too) at the time, they were essentially adults. The idea that children aren't just "little adults" is a relatively recent concept in the scope of history.  

Quote

Point Four:
As Jesus was the son of Mary, and the son of God, it is right to assume, that God and Mary where his parents. It is a sin to have sex (thus have children) outside of wedlock. What happened to Mrs. God? As far as we know, God didn't marry Mary before he conceived with her. IF god did marry before having a child, then who blessed it?

You make more erroneous assumptions based on modern concepts and definitions. God didn't have sex with Mary. God didn't marry Mary. God isn't even male, although the word "father" is used by Jesus to help us understand our relationship to God.


All that aside, I grow tired of Christians who think the only issue worth concerning themselves with is homosexuality. As I mentioned above, Jesus didn't have anything to say about it. He did speak about helping the poor, the needy, the oppressed, . . . about living in peace with others . . . and I wish my Christian brothers and sisters (in the spiritual sense) would spend their efforts on these other things that Jesus deemed very, very important instead of thinking that Christianity is doomed if a man kisses another man. God's quite a bit more sovereign than that.

I have a close relative who's gay who attends church regularly with his partner. What's more important? That the two of them are in a relationship with God or that the two of them end their relationship with each other? Some of my fellow Christians believe that God will not welcome them unless they deny each other. But these people have apparently never read the scripture that says that while we were still sinners, Jesus died for us. So they have sex. Okay. I admit to being uncomfortable with that. I believe that such actions are a sin according to scripture. But, I think what's most important is that they are in a relationship with God, and if God wants to impress upon them that their actions are sinful, he will. My job is to love them both as fellow human beings made in the image of God, and to encourage them to know God and to love him. And to leave the rest up to God.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."



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