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Bush 2006 Public Opinion UK

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#41 BklnScott

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 11:16 AM

^^^Do remarks like that make right-leaning people feel better about the fact that we are currently living through one of the worst, most corrupt, intellectually and morally bankrupt presidencies in the history of the country?  

Reality check: there is no way in hell President Gore would've sought -- or permitted -- the suspension of habeus corpus (and that's just one example).

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#42 G1223

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 11:33 AM

View PostLost Cause, on Nov 6 2006, 09:56 AM, said:

Whether the man is a boorish philander is only an outward symptom of the man's sense of morality and ethics.


Ethics? Morality? Clinton? That is like Tough Talking and Jimmy Carter? They just never match up.
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#43 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 11:59 AM

View PostScottEVill, on Nov 6 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

^^^Do remarks like that make right-leaning people feel better about the fact that we are currently living through one of the worst, most corrupt, intellectually and morally bankrupt presidencies in the history of the country?

Reality check: there is no way in hell President Gore would've sought -- or permitted -- the suspension of habeus corpus (and that's just one example).


No.  Just a simple statement of opinion.  But I know Gore is no fan of the 2nd Amendment.  So, it's okay to attack habeus corpus but not protect the 2nd Amendment?

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#44 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 12:00 PM

View PostG1223, on Nov 6 2006, 10:33 AM, said:

View PostLost Cause, on Nov 6 2006, 09:56 AM, said:

Whether the man is a boorish philander is only an outward symptom of the man's sense of morality and ethics.


Ethics? Morality? Clinton? That is like Tough Talking and Jimmy Carter? They just never match up.


Everyone has a sense of morality, whether the standard is high or low.  In Clinton's case, I'm banking on him having a low sense of morality.

Rose: [disgusted] Oh, look at what the cat dragged in: "The Oncoming Storm."

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." -- John Wayne


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#45 Drew

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 12:15 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Nov 6 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

^^^Do remarks like that make right-leaning people feel better about the fact that we are currently living through one of the worst, most corrupt, intellectually and morally bankrupt presidencies in the history of the country?

No, but when people use these sorts of hot-button, emotion-filled words and phrases to describe this administration, it comes off as white noise to me. I could easily believe the great sins of this administration if posters used reason and logic and persuasive speech. But when people use ranting, extremist language, I tune them out.

I know several people who post here regularly have the ability to be reasonable instead of reactionary. I wish they'd put a little effort toward it.
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#46 BklnScott

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 12:22 PM

View PostLost Cause, on Nov 6 2006, 11:59 AM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on Nov 6 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

^^^Do remarks like that make right-leaning people feel better about the fact that we are currently living through one of the worst, most corrupt, intellectually and morally bankrupt presidencies in the history of the country?

Reality check: there is no way in hell President Gore would've sought -- or permitted -- the suspension of habeus corpus (and that's just one example).


No.  Just a simple statement of opinion.

Yeah, I get that, and I'm asking you to back it up with some examples.  

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But I know Gore is no fan of the 2nd Amendment.  So, it's okay to attack habeus corpus but not protect the 2nd Amendment?

That's a straw-man, LC.  Show me where Gore ever attacked--let alone tried to repeal--the second amendment?  Bush actually has gotten rid of Habeus Corpus.  It's gone.  

The current administration simply doesn't believe in our system -- They don't think it works.  So instead of attempting to affect change within the system, they took the first opportunity to do an end-run around it, setting up an extralegal network of off-shore gulags into which any one of us can be dropped, with no recourse.  We have no right to go before a judge and know the charges against us.  No right to trial.  Nothing.  

And, of course, should they ever let us out, we don't even have a right to talk to a lawyer THEN.

I'd like to know how anyone can know that and yet turn around and go, "*whew*--at least we dodged the Gore bullet.  What a nightmare THAT would've been."

By comparison to what?

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#47 BklnScott

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 12:30 PM

View PostDrew, on Nov 6 2006, 12:15 PM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on Nov 6 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

^^^Do remarks like that make right-leaning people feel better about the fact that we are currently living through one of the worst, most corrupt, intellectually and morally bankrupt presidencies in the history of the country?

No, but when people use these sorts of hot-button, emotion-filled words and phrases to describe this administration, it comes off as white noise to me. I could easily believe the great sins of this administration if posters used reason and logic and persuasive speech. But when people use ranting, extremist language, I tune them out.

Not everything is about persuasion.  We've been over and over -- ad nauseum -- why this administration qualifies for the epithet "one of the worst ... in the history of the country."  

Besides, are you asking us to believe that your only awareness of "the great sins of this administration" comes from posters on this message board?  I refuse to believe you're that disconnected from the news.

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#48 Godeskian

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 12:31 PM

View PostDrew, on Nov 6 2006, 05:15 PM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on Nov 6 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

^^^Do remarks like that make right-leaning people feel better about the fact that we are currently living through one of the worst, most corrupt, intellectually and morally bankrupt presidencies in the history of the country?

No, but when people use these sorts of hot-button, emotion-filled words and phrases to describe this administration, it comes off as white noise to me. I could easily believe the great sins of this administration if posters used reason and logic and persuasive speech. But when people use ranting, extremist language, I tune them out.

I know several people who post here regularly have the ability to be reasonable instead of reactionary. I wish they'd put a little effort toward it.

Drew, I'm curious what other word covers for corrupt, or why the word corrupt in and of itself becomes 'ranting, extremist language'?

Or were you referring to something else?

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#49 Drew

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:00 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Nov 6 2006, 11:31 AM, said:

Drew, I'm curious what other word covers for corrupt, or why the word corrupt in and of itself becomes 'ranting, extremist language'?

There's a difference between saying "corrupt" and saying "one of the worst, most corrupt, intellectually and morally bankrupt presidencies in the history of the country."

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Not everything is about persuasion. We've been over and over -- ad nauseum -- why this administration qualifies for the epithet "one of the worst ... in the history of the country."

And you keep repeating it ad nauseum, too. Have you persuaded anyone who wasn't already in agreement with you? :cool:

Let's just say that as a former supporter of the President, over-the-top language causes me to snap back toward the "supporter" side of the spectrum if only to counter the irrationality of the charges. I mean how am I supposed to take anyone seriously who feels that they must paint the President as stupid, evil, dangerous, and ready to blow up the world with his nukes if he feels God telling him to.

Over-the-top rhetoric on either side just causes me to lump you in with either the Freeper crazies or the DU nutcases.

It's amazing to me what extremes people think they need to go to to support their parties. The problem is that while this extremist rhetoric may achieve the short-term goal of turning people against one's percieved political enemies and hence turn an election, in the long term all it does is make people apathetic toward politics in general, resulting in lower voter turnout and or attitudes like "throw 'em all out and start fresh!" (Which I admit is mine at the moment.)

Honestly, when I hear after tomorrow what a low voter turnout we had and what a shame that is, I will point my finger directly at the people who ran campaigns full of mudslinging, painting their opponents not just as the wrong choice, but as horrible, morally corrupt individuals in league with terrorists, Satanists, and cannibalistic baby-eaters. Is it any wonder people don't bother to vote in an atmosphere like that?

I'm going to vote tomorrow, but I don't even want to.

What could be achieved if, instead of extremist rhetoric about Iraq, forcing people to choose between blindly staying the course or angrily denouncing anything that isn't an immediate roof evacuation on the last helicopter out, our politicians on both sides could sit down and reasonably discuss what the best exit strategy might be. But reasonable discourse doesn't win elections.
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#50 Rhea

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:10 PM

View PostZwolf, on Nov 6 2006, 07:30 AM, said:

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But I know that the information we get passes through so many filters -- many of them ideological in nature -- that the picture we have of what's going on is most likely quite far removed from the truth, and the media on both sides slips into easy labelling of the President and his administration.

This is true.  I tend to think that most media (with exceptions) strives to be neutral, but, given the fierce competition between the parties, they tend to swing (or be pushed) one way or another, so some bias or agenda is probably inevitable...

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I've never been one to read Presidential Biographies, but some years from now, when the definitive and exhaustive insider book about the Bush years is written (by a neutral party, please) I'm snapping up a copy. That's going to be some fascinating reading, sure to upset both his supporters and detractors when the image doesn't match up with the one they've already built up over the years. Our presidents are that upon which we project all that we uphold or despise (depending on whether you supported or opposed him). But I doubt any of those projections are close to the truth.

Could be.  It'd definitely be a good read. :)

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And an aside: why a lame duck, I wonder? Why a duck?

Good question.  I've never known that either.  I did a quick look-up and found this and this, but neither are really satisfying.  

I kinda like "wind-swept potato."  There's more of an image of helplessness to it... :)

Cheers,

Zwolf

*edited 'cuz the quote-thingies did funny

Here you go:

http://www.briggs13....o.uk/book/d.htm

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The phrase a lame duck implies that a person or business is ineffectual. It was coined by the great actor Garrick in a play he wrote in 1771. In the play he describes Stock-Jobbers (dealers) in the Stock Exchange who could not or would not pay their debts as follows; Change Alley bankrupts waddle out (like) lame ducks. The expression was taken up by the Stock Exchange itself. It then spread to the USA where it came to be applied to politicians near the end of their term of office and therefore ineffectual.

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#51 G1223

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:12 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Nov 6 2006, 12:31 PM, said:

Drew, I'm curious what other word covers for corrupt, or why the word corrupt in and of itself becomes 'ranting, extremist language'?

Or were you referring to something else?

Possibly if the word corrupt was not sitting out there all by itself as if the simple use of the word makes it a fact.  If calling someone stupid make it a actual fact we would see Al Gore floating on water with bag of chinese cash in his hand.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

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#52 Godeskian

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:13 PM

View PostDrew, on Nov 6 2006, 06:00 PM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Nov 6 2006, 11:31 AM, said:

Drew, I'm curious what other word covers for corrupt, or why the word corrupt in and of itself becomes 'ranting, extremist language'?

There's a difference between saying "corrupt" and saying "one of the worst, most corrupt, intellectually and morally bankrupt presidencies in the history of the country."

So it's the hyperbole you object to?

Defy Gravity!


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#53 Rhea

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:15 PM

View PostDrew, on Nov 6 2006, 10:00 AM, said:

Honestly, when I hear after tomorrow what a low voter turnout we had and what a shame that is, I will point my finger directly at the people who ran campaigns full of mudslinging, painting their opponents not just as the wrong choice, but as horrible, morally corrupt individuals in league with terrorists, Satanists, and cannibalistic baby-eaters. Is it any wonder people don't bother to vote in an atmosphere like that?

Interestingly enough, at least according to the people who make money off ads, negative ads have a better response than positive ones. That's why they run them. I hate 'em, myself.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#54 Rhea

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:16 PM

Quote

View PostDrew, on Nov 6 2006, 10:13 AM, said:

There's a difference between saying "corrupt" and saying "one of the worst, most corrupt, intellectually and morally bankrupt presidencies in the history of the country."

So it's the hyperbole you object to?

It's hyperbole? Really?  :eek2:  :eek: I find the Bush administration to be all three, and so do many people who formerly supported them. When even the people who waved flags for you find you inept, corrupt and morally bankrupt, is it still hyperbole?

Edited by Rhea, 06 November 2006 - 01:17 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#55 G1223

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:17 PM

View PostRhea, on Nov 6 2006, 01:16 PM, said:

It's hyperbole? Really?  :eek2:  :eek:


Gode here is an example.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#56 Godeskian

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:18 PM

View PostG1223, on Nov 6 2006, 06:12 PM, said:

Possibly if the word corrupt was not sitting out there all by itself as if the simple use of the word makes it a fact.  If calling someone stupid make it a actual fact we would see Al Gore floating on water with bag of chinese cash in his hand.

You know what G, your endless attacking of Gore or Clinton depending on your mood is exactly as wearying as the constant attacks against Bush or Cheney are. The way you choose to behave is EXACTLY like the behaviour of those you disagree with. The only difference I can see is that there's less people on this board on your side than on theirs.

I asked the question because Drew responded to an entire post, containing two seperate accusations, both with hyperbole with a single response. I was trying to narrow down the field. However rather than simply responding to my query, or offering your own hypothosis, you chose instead to use an entire post to do nothing more than another attack on someone who is a total nonentity in the current election debate.

Bush, his behaviour, and the behaviour of his senior subordinates are likely to have a signifigant effect, one way or the other on the outcome of tomorrow's elections. Al Gore's, and Bill Clinton's for that matter, will have none whatsoever.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#57 Godeskian

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:20 PM

View PostRhea, on Nov 6 2006, 06:16 PM, said:

Quote

View PostDrew, on Nov 6 2006, 10:13 AM, said:

There's a difference between saying "corrupt" and saying "one of the worst, most corrupt, intellectually and morally bankrupt presidencies in the history of the country."

So it's the hyperbole you object to?

It's hyperbole? Really?  :eek2:  :eek: I find the Bush administration to be all three, and so do many people who formerly supported them. When even the people who waved flags for you find you inept, corrupt and morally bankrupt, is it still hyperbole?

The hyperbole comes from non-measurable statements, such as 'worst' and 'most corrupt'. Worst in comparison to what? Most corrupt in comparison to what? And what happens in 2009 when a new president takes his place and turns out to be more corrupt?

The problem with using non-measurable language in a debate is that it's intended to convey opinion, not fact. Corrupt, is something that can be measured. Most corrupt is a lot harder, and requires far more imput from personal opinion.

[edited immeasurable to non-measurable in two instances to clarify my point]

Edited by Godeskian, 06 November 2006 - 01:21 PM.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#58 G1223

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:21 PM

You really believe that? They are accoring to MSNBC they are stars helping the DNC win.  If they did not matter they would not be the focus of a few stories.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#59 Rhea

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:23 PM

View PostG1223, on Nov 6 2006, 10:17 AM, said:

View PostRhea, on Nov 6 2006, 01:16 PM, said:



It's hyperbole? Really?  :eek2:  :eek:


Gode here is an example.

Do I really need quotes? Pick up former Bush devotee Bob Woodward's book.

When it becomes fact it's no longer hyperbole. This adminstration has been exposed over and over again as liars, cheaters, and inept idiots.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#60 Godeskian

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:27 PM

View PostG1223, on Nov 6 2006, 06:21 PM, said:

You really believe that? They are accoring to MSNBC they are stars helping the DNC win.  If they did not matter they would not be the focus of a few stories.

Link please?

You have to understand something G. What may appear obvious to you as an American living in a country saturated by media for whom the election coverage is amongst the most important things on the news, isn't necesarrily obvious to everyone else.

Of the dozens of news articles quoted here on exisle, or appearing on the BBC website, or on CNN, very few of them mention Bill Clinton, and even doing a search the only references to Al Gore are in direct relationship to his climate-warning movie that was released a few weeks ago.

So feel free, where are all these news stories in which Bill Clinton and Al Gore are personally shepherding the Democrats cause in this mid term? If you have them, then please post them. If not, then give bashing Clinton and Gore a rest, which is the same thing everyone keeps asking people to do with regards to Bush.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.




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