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bush only just below Osama bin laden

Bush 2006 Public Opinion UK

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#61 Godeskian

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:29 PM

View PostRhea, on Nov 6 2006, 06:23 PM, said:

Do I really need quotes? Pick up former Bush devotee Bob Woodward's book.

I'll check my bookshops, but I very much doubt it's been released in the UK. Contrary to popular belief, tell all books of Bush people aren't exactly flying off the shelves in the UK.

Quote

When it becomes fact it's no longer hyperbole. This adminstration has been exposed over and over again as liars, cheaters, and inept idiots.

Then I'd say there has been a failure on an epic scale of your goverment, your legal system, and all of those checks and balances I keep hearing about when people claim that the US system of governance is pretty good.

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#62 Rhea

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:29 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Nov 6 2006, 10:27 AM, said:

View PostG1223, on Nov 6 2006, 06:21 PM, said:

You really believe that? They are accoring to MSNBC they are stars helping the DNC win.  If they did not matter they would not be the focus of a few stories.

Link please?

You have to understand something G. What may appear obvious to you as an American living in a country saturated by media for whom the election coverage is amongst the most important things on the news, isn't necesarrily obvious to everyone else.

Of the dozens of news articles quoted here on exisle, or appearing on the BBC website, or on CNN, very few of them mention Bill Clinton, and even doing a search the only references to Al Gore are in direct relationship to his climate-warning movie that was released a few weeks ago.

So feel free, where are all these news stories in which Bill Clinton and Al Gore are personally shepherding the Democrats cause in this mid term? If you have them, then please post them. If not, then give bashing Clinton and Gore a rest, which is the same thing everyone keeps asking people to do with regards to Bush.

I know their only campaigning here in California has been in support of Prop 87, the bill that would put a surcharge on oil coming out of the ground. Otherwise they haven't popped up here. And I doubt they've done much elsewhere, given that California is one of the biggest states, and one of the biggest Democratic states. And I applaid Gore for trying to do something about global warming. This country should have led the way, and we've fallen down on the job big time. At least SOMEBODY is trying to make a difference.

Besides, if you give specific references to the lies of the Bush administration, the failure of the war in Iraq, the lineup of people like De Lay and Foley who have proven to be corrupt, instead of responding to them you get referred to Al Gore's movie about global warning or Ted Kennedy's drinking problem, as if that somehow justified this reprehensible and deplorable administration. Go figure. I'm sure Clinton's blow job is responsible for everything wrong with our country, if you work hard enough to draw a parallel. :p :p No way is poor, picked-upon George W. Bush responsible for anything that's happened during his Presidency.

Edited by Rhea, 06 November 2006 - 01:34 PM.

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#63 Godeskian

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:31 PM

View PostRhea, on Nov 6 2006, 06:29 PM, said:

I know their only campaigning here in California has been in support of Prop 87, the bill that would put a surcharge on oil coming out of the ground. Otherwise they haven't popped up here. And I doubt they've done much elsewhere, given that California is one of the biggest states, and one of the biggest Democratic states.

Then unless the state of California is somehow completely and utterly instrumental in helping the Democratic party from regaining control of the senate/house, then I'd say that it doesn't mesh well with the notion of them having a major impact.

However I will continue to look for links to their mid-term election activities.

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#64 Rhea

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:45 PM

Members of Bush's party certainly are distancing themselves from him:

MICHAEL STEELE, Maryland Candidate For Senate: Maryland Lt. Gov. Michael Steele, a Republican who is running for the Senate seat being vacated by Democrat Paul Sarbanes, told reporters that he would "probably not" want Bush to campaign for him. Steele called party affiliation a "scarlet letter" and "an impediment...a hurdle I have to overcome." Steele also said that the GOP-controlled Congress should "just shut up and get something done. Moreover, Steele said that the Iraq war "didn't work" and "we didn't prepare for the peace," that the response to Hurricane Katrina was "a monumental failure of government," and that "there's a palpable frustration right now in the country." [The Hill, 7/27/06; Capital (Annapolis, MD), 7/26/06]

CONGRESSMAN CURT WELDON, (PA-7): Rep. Curt Weldon, who faces perhaps his toughest challenge since his first election to the House in 1986, chose not to appear at a Bush event in Pennsylvania. He told the Wall Street Journal on Tuesday that with Bush's poll numbers so low, "there's nothing the president can do to help me." The newspaper quoted Weldon as saying: "I've got to win this by myself." [Philadelphia Inquirer, 5/24/06]

CONGRESSWOMAN THELMA DRAKE (VA-2): Congresswoman Thelma Drake, of Norfolk, Virginia, announced she had to remain in Washington for an "important vote'' on a military appropriations bill and miss President Bush's visit to her district. The bill passed by 395 votes to 0. [Daily Telegraph (London), 6/11/06]

South Dakota Senator John Thune: The leading candidate to head Senate Republicans' campaign arm in the next election cycle said that the Iraq war has taken a toll on Bush's popularity. Thune recently said that "If I were running in the state this year, you obviously don't embrace the president and his agenda." Thune also told reporters that the Iraq war is Bush's biggest problem. "The first thing I'd do is acknowledge that there have been mistakes made," he said. He added that GOP candidates should identify aspects of Bush's Iraq policy with which they disagree and said "I would point those out and highlight them." [Associated Press Online, 7/25/06]

Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum: According to The Hill, Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) "sought to portray themselves [himself] as independent yesterday without pushing away from Bush." "When I agree with the president, I say so. When I disagree, I say so," said Santorum, who supported 100 percent of Bush's stated positions in 2004 and routinely scores in the high 90s in such tallies, according to Congressional Quarterly. [The Hill, 7/27/06]

Texas Senator John Cornyn: Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas), identified by The Hill as "a close Bush ally," said there is room for candidates to abide by the "moral commitment" the United States has made to the Iraq war and still create distance between themselves and the President on the issue. [The Hill, 727/06]

CONGRESSMAN JIM GERLACH (PA-6): In response to an accusation from his opponent about being "very close to the administration," Gerlach said ''We're not running away from the president. We're not running to the president. We're running for the House of Representatives. When we agree with the president, we talk about that, and when we disagree with the president, we'll talk about that.'' [New York Times, 6/6/06]

Judy Baar Topinka, Illinois Candidate For Governor: At a political fundraiser keynoted by President George W. Bush, which generated $1.2 million for the campaign coffers of Republican gubernatorial candidate Judy Baar Topinka, Topinka sought to point out that she disagreed with Bush on some issues. Topinka said, "Now, does that mean we [Bush and Topinka] agree on everything? No, nobody agrees on everything. But on our basics we do agree, and I think he put a lot of those forward today." [Copley News Service, 7/7/06]

California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger: Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger distanced himself from President Bush and fellow Republicans in Congress, seeking to avoid harm to his reelection effort from their declining political fortunes. Schwarzenegger challenged Bush on border security and global warming regulations. He publicly threatened to sue the Bush administration over Medicare regulations. He has tacitly sanctioned at least three other state lawsuits against the federal government. He demanded that Bush dispense more money to the state to cover the costs of disasters, immigration and welfare, and chastised Republican efforts in Congress to expand offshore oil drilling. He labeled actions by Bush and Congress as terrible, irresponsible, unacceptable and embarrassing. [Los Angeles Times, 5/19/06]

Congressman Mike Fitzpatrick (PA-8): While U.S. Rep. Mike Fitzpatrick welcomed the president onstage at the Sheraton Philadelphia City Center Hotel, he took much effort to point out his independence from the White House. "Why don't you ask the president if he's comfortable being beside one of the members of the majority who most often votes against him?" Fitzpatrick, a freshman, said in an interview. He noted that Congressional Quarterly had named him one of the top five House dissidents for voting against Bush's position 40 percent of the time. Fitzpatrick said those votes included opposition to the president's energy policy, because he said it did not do enough to encourage alternative fuels. [Philadelphia Inquirer, 5/24/06]

Judy Baar Topinka, Illinois Candidate For Governor: One of Topinka's aides recently said to conservative columnist George Will, "We just want him [Bush] to raise money, late at night, at an undisclosed location." [Fox Special Report With Brit Hume, Fox News Network, 7/7/06]

Congressman SCOTT GARRETT (NJ-5): Representative Garrett moved his fundraiser out of his district. Vice President Dick Cheney keynoted at a $1,000 per plate fundraising event at New York City's Waldorf-Astoria for New Jersey Republican Rep. Scott Garrett. The decision to head to New York to raise money for Congressman Garrett follows the cancellation of a similar fundraiser for Garrett's campaign with Vice President Cheney in New Jersey earlier this month. [Associated Press State & Local Wire, 6/29/06; Wilkes Barre Times Leader (Pennsylvania), 6/8/06]

TOM KEAN, New Jersey Senate Candidate: In March, Kean arrived at a reception featuring Dick Cheney only after the vice president had left. Kean blamed Route 1 traffic between Trenton and Newark, prompting questions about whether he was avoiding an unpopular administration figure, not to mention why he didn't take the turnpike. But Kean was early by a couple of hours when Laura Bush visited, whether speeded by the first lady's less prickly profile or the smooth travel afforded by the Garden State Parkway to the Ocean County event. His reward was expected to be about $500,000 for his campaign and state Republicans. [The Record (Bergen County), 6/14/06]

And in today's news:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/bush

The Florida gubernatorial candidate ducked out on Bush as well.

I think it's safe to say that when a President's own people don't want to be seen with him, he's a disaster.

Edited by Rhea, 06 November 2006 - 01:46 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#65 Drew

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:48 PM

Yes, it's the hyperbole that bothers me. Not just the hyperbole itself, but the fact that it's nasty hyperbole, and as I suggested, appeals to no one except those already predisposed to believing the worst about a person anyway.

But it is not just non-productive, it is counterproductive. It doesn't encourage anyone to reach compromise or consensus. It encourages entrenchment.
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#66 Cait

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:49 PM

View PostDrew, on Nov 6 2006, 10:00 AM, said:

Honestly, when I hear after tomorrow what a low voter turnout we had and what a shame that is, I will point my finger directly at the people who ran campaigns full of mudslinging, painting their opponents not just as the wrong choice, but as horrible, morally corrupt individuals in league with terrorists, Satanists, and cannibalistic baby-eaters. Is it any wonder people don't bother to vote in an atmosphere like that?

I agree.  Every time I hear any rhetoric about trying to keep the campaigns focused on particular points, slandering opponents, deflecting issues.. I want to scream.  I not only blame the Campaign Committees, I blame the press AND THE PEOPLE [us] who stand for it.  We, the people, should set the agenda for them, the politicians.  They represent us.

Quote

What could be achieved if, instead of extremist rhetoric about Iraq, forcing people to choose between blindly staying the course or angrily denouncing anything that isn't an immediate roof evacuation on the last helicopter out, our politicians on both sides could sit down and reasonably discuss what the best exit strategy might be. But reasonable discourse doesn't win elections.

Because it doesn't win elections.  And again, I blame the electorate.  We're the ones that can be swayed by a negative ad.  They do polls right after an ad runs to see how it did.  If it gets them numbers, they will keep on using them.  If their numbers didn't go up from the ads, they'd stop using them.  It's a pure numbers game.  If people demanded reasonable discourse on the issues we'd get it.  Why?  Because that is what would be necessary to get elected.

Let's not paint any politician with the brush of altruism.  Each one of them wants the power to implement their own ideologies.  They exercise *their* power once they have it.  We exercise our power on election day.  To squander a vote based on some negative ad inflaming your emotions is foolhardy at best and dangerous at worst.  We inevitably get what we vote for.  Campaigns that are run  using negative ads, run negative terms in Congress, and repeat the cycle once election day comes around again.

How they get elected is *our* responsibility. How they campaign is *our* power.  That vote is all they want.  Instead of squandering it or heaven forbid not using it, hold that vote out there and say for the record.. "If you want my vote, you have to represent me.  You have to serve me.  You have to or I will vote for someone else."  Instead of feeling apathetic and powerless, use that vote and demand that those bastards represent us.  And again I don't care if you find your values represented by the Republicans or the Democrats.. demand that they represent us.. the people.

I still wish there was a place on the ballot for "None of the above".  I think if there was we would get a bigger turnout just to let politicians know how few people really wanted them.  How little faith we have in them.  As it stands now all we can do it throw people out of office for not doing their job, but we are still stuck with the opposition.  An opposition that is just as bad [in different ways] as the party in power.  If there were a way to let them know, "Hey, we don't like any of you".. maybe it might impact.  

I'm not sure any more.  I think what I really believe is that in the most powerful country in the world, we have entrenched pockets of power in government.  We'll never clean it all up, and even if we did, power would only corrupt again.

Damn, I just talked myself into apathy again.   :(

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

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#67 Spectacles

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 04:29 PM

Quote

Drew: What could be achieved if, instead of extremist rhetoric about Iraq, forcing people to choose between blindly staying the course or angrily denouncing anything that isn't an immediate roof evacuation on the last helicopter out, our politicians on both sides could sit down and reasonably discuss what the best exit strategy might be. But reasonable discourse doesn't win elections.

Well, I'll give you a big AMEN for that one, Drew.

The situation in Iraq demands that cool, objective, pragmatic heads get together now and figure out which course is in the longterm interest of this country. None of the options are good, and our representatives in DC need to be upfront about that. Leaving isn't a magical solution, and neither is staying the course nor staying with beefed up forces. There's simply no easy answer.

What we need to do is realistically weigh all of our options, all of the costs and benefits of each, and choose the one that will likely cause the least damage to this country. Then it would maybe be nice if they'd communicate this to the people. We've all had so much smoke blown up our you-know-whats that I'm surprised little smoke rings aren't rising from our ears. We need leadership who will tell it like it is, not how they'd like their political bases to imagine it is.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

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#68 Zwolf

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 05:00 PM

Quote

Well, I'll give you a big AMEN for that one, Drew.

I'll second that. :)  And I gotta say I'm likin' this new more-apolitical Drew.  We still may not agree on everything, but there are some good, thought-provoking discussions out of it, instead of just fightin'. :)  When there's disagreement, it's intellectually-profitable disagreement... which is what I liked about the political discussions on this board in the first place.  When I just wanna throw bombs back and forth, I can always hit the Yahoo boards... :)

The problem is that our politicians seem to actually have contempt for us, and think we're all either very stupid or, at least, unsophisticated.  

They try to act like it's all a choice between "cut and run" or "stay the course," and it all becomes "shovel and throw."   It's all "If not A, then B" - as if there are only A & B options.  And almost none of these situations come down to an A or B option.

As for Iraq, "stay the course" is obviously not working.  If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten.  So, that's no good.

And "cutting and running" - immediately withdrawing all troops (which I don't think many people, Democrat or otherwise, are actually advocating) - would almost certainly create an even larger mess than is already there.   The situation is already destabilized, but it's like playing Jenga - you can have a really shaky tower built, but if you yank out too many pieces, the whole thing will come crashing down.  You can, however, remove a piece here and there... or, since this isn't actually Jenga, you can move those pieces around, or even add some back.

Naturally, we want to get our troops out... but, we have to figure out a way to create the conditions where that would be feasible.   We may have to put more troops in before we can withdraw them.  Or maybe we can withdraw them gradually.  Maybe we should beef up our presence in the trouble spots... or maybe we should abandon those spots and let the chaos take its course, while protecting the more stable spots so they don't become chaotic themselves.  It's hard to say, and I'm not a military expert enough to say what the proper course of action should be.  But, it doesn't come down to "staying the course" or "cutting and running"... yet that's all our damn politicians seem to want to allow us.

And it's all because they're governing by the soundbite.  They need something that doesn't need an explanation, and can be fired off in 5 seconds of airtime, so their constituents can repeat it.   And that gets infuriating, 'cuz things are not so simply pigeonholed.

I'm voting Democrat, but I'm not for "cut and run."  I'm for "examine the situation and adapt to it" - whatever that may mean at the given time.  I'm voting Dem and I'm for smaller government, fiscal conservativism, and gun ownership.  And I know Republicans who are pro-choice, pro-gay-marriage, and not religious.  

These things are not as easily-compartmentalized as our politicians want to make them seem.  They want to give us only extremist choices, because if they don't drive everybody to opposite corners and keep them paranoid and snarling at each other, they might lose their "branding."  That's an advertising word, and it is all advertising.  The soft drink people want you to hate Pepsi and love Coke, or vise-versa.   But, while I prefer Coke, I'll drink a Pepsi now and then.   To me, that's variety.  To them, that's a lost sale, and they can't stand that.

Politics is turning into something like racism... and racism has always been a trick used to distract us from classism.  As long as the fat-cats can keep the lower classes divided and suspicious of each other based on trivialities like skin color, they don't have to worry about those lower classes ever realizing the potential they'd have if they'd united.  

And as long as those politicians say you can't be a Republican if you're pro-choice, or an athiest, or an evnironmentalist, and you can't be a Democrat if you like guns, or are anti-abortion, or are religious, or whatever, then they've got us, and we'll keep having to pick between the shabby little choices they allow us.   That works out great for them, but we the people end up screwed over again.

Cheers,

Zwolf
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Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
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I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
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Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
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Trying to talk to you."
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#69 Cait

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 05:08 PM

View PostZwolf, on Nov 6 2006, 02:00 PM, said:

Politics is turning into something like racism... and racism has always been a trick used to distract us from classism.  As long as the fat-cats can keep the lower classes divided and suspicious of each other based on trivialities like skin color, they don't have to worry about those lower classes ever realizing the potential they'd have if they'd united.

**applauds**

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#70 Bobby

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 05:13 PM

View PostCait, on Nov 6 2006, 04:08 PM, said:

View PostZwolf, on Nov 6 2006, 02:00 PM, said:

Politics is turning into something like racism... and racism has always been a trick used to distract us from classism.  As long as the fat-cats can keep the lower classes divided and suspicious of each other based on trivialities like skin color, they don't have to worry about those lower classes ever realizing the potential they'd have if they'd united.

**applauds**


Let's make it a standing ovation.   The whole post was great.

#71 Drew

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 05:45 PM

View PostZwolf, on Nov 6 2006, 04:00 PM, said:

I'll second that. :)  And I gotta say I'm likin' this new more-apolitical Drew.

Heh.  :cool:

Although now that I'm posting here, I guess I'm no longer apolitical.  ;)

One of these days I'm going to write a longer essay on how I believe the Republicans are going to lose the evangelical vote (and may already be losing it) with the way they've been carrying on. But I don't think the Democrats will necessarily pick up that voting bloc (one that historically tended to vote Democratic, too) unless they can start reconnecting with "faith-based voters."

But there's a new generation of evangelicals on the rise, and politically, they're not at all like the previous one. They take seriously Jesus' words about helping the poor, the oppressed, they advocate for social justice, and they use the term without irony. They harbor disillusionment with the way Christianity has been co-opted by the religious right, and used as tool to gain political power. They dislike how Christianity has been "Westernized" into an upper middle-class suburban megachurch religion.

These young voters are up for grabs. If the Democratic party can successfully speak to their concerns, they've got the evangelicals for at least the next six presidential election cycles.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#72 Spectacles

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 07:49 PM

View PostLife for Rent, on Nov 6 2006, 05:13 PM, said:

View PostCait, on Nov 6 2006, 04:08 PM, said:

View PostZwolf, on Nov 6 2006, 02:00 PM, said:

Politics is turning into something like racism... and racism has always been a trick used to distract us from classism.  As long as the fat-cats can keep the lower classes divided and suspicious of each other based on trivialities like skin color, they don't have to worry about those lower classes ever realizing the potential they'd have if they'd united.

**applauds**


Let's make it a standing ovation.   The whole post was great.

Absolutely.

And I want to second what Z said about political discussions being so much more productive and thought-provoking when people try to bridge the gaps and think of solutions rather than pointing fingers. Thanks, Drew, for bringing that aboard.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman



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