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Sweeping policy change=Draft???

Military US Draft 2006

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#21 G1223

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 03:01 AM

We have put up with people who refuse to see forgien sponsered terrorism as  acts of war. They want to see the acts as being the act of individuals. Because no one wants to fight a war.  Better to tolerate islamic communities for showing their intolerance than tell them 'Welcome to free speech' .

We put up with people who refuse to accept that we are not as civillzed as they have BSed themselves into believing. We see people put up with those who want to yammer for decades and decades before making a stand.

We put up with people who praise giving a madman a new nuclear reactor which thankfully cannot make bomb materials. But leave the same madman the reactor that will make the material. Then give the boob you brokered the deal a peace prize when he should have been called a fool.

The reality is we should have learned the lesson of the past. If you want peace prepare for war.  That is why the democratic party is never the party I would trust with national defense. They proved unable to do the job. That came after 40 years of running congress. It took Regan pushing a build up to give us a military that was not run into the ground.

A draft is a stupid idea and Bush has said that if such a thing was passed by congress he would use it. As the implamentation is part of the executive branch rather than in the hands of Charlie Rangle and Co.
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#22 Hibblette

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 08:32 AM

View Posttennyson, on Nov 7 2006, 12:22 AM, said:

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One of the toughest group of fighting men came out of the draft and that was during WWII.
In World War II you could give a guy a few weeks of training and a rifle and throw him into the grinder with some degree of success. Today that is impossible. Just learning how to use your own equipment takes a level of training that would have been literally unimaginable in World War II.
Today combat formations are networked by a vast series of electronic and mechanical systems that all require that thier operators know what they are doing or people will die and you will loose. These recruits have to be extensively trained and capable of operating the equipment and a draft would dilute that pool of talent into incoherence. Toughness doesn't win wars, you win wars by being better than your opponent and that means being smarter, having access to more information, better organization and better equipment that works.
That being said no government branch wants a draft, even the military itself doesn't want a draft.  They would be the people who would best know what thier own needs are and there are no plans to instate one because there isn't a need. Iraq isn't that kind of war. We're long past the point where just throwing warm bodies at it with no specialized training could make any difference. What was described in the article was using a mechanism already inherent in the system to make up shortfalls, not a draft which would require building a whole new infrastructure just to activate.

Ah so our saviors from Hitler where unintelligent farmers-but they did it.  And they were young and they started learning.

You are very insulting to a bunch of guys that were mostly 18 and 19 year olds who had never been off the farm but took the world on.  And they learned and they learned fast.  

The thing about all our modern weaponry has been that it was sold as something that was easy, computerized-touch of the button.  So...it's not?  They have to do all the projectory calculations?

Really?
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#23 Drew

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 12:18 PM

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I hope no one flames me for this, but the reason is too many just don't care. Many of them are immigrants who have no love for this country, except for the $$$ they get from it. They can care less of this nation or its government.

Immigrants have no corner on apathy. Americans don't just have a corner on it, they surround the whole block.
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#24 Cheile

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 03:00 PM

maybe the illegals should be shipped off to fight the war.  tell them they're going to fight or they're gonna be sent back to Mexico where they belong.

then they can PROVE they want to be Americans.

i have somewhere (misplaced it) a tshirt i got from the Newseum in Washington D.C. (well it used to be in Rosslyn, VA but they moved last year).  it says "Talk is cheap.  Free speech isn't."

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#25 Drew

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 03:46 PM

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maybe the illegals should be shipped off to fight the war. tell them they're going to fight or they're gonna be sent back to Mexico where they belong.

then they can PROVE they want to be Americans.

Actually, hasn't someone just proposed this idea? Basically that if they want to stay in the U.S., they must put in a certain amount of time in the service, after which they are automatically given their citizenship? Sounds very familiar.
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#26 BklnScott

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 03:55 PM

Yeah, I think it was Hirohito.

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#27 Drew

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 04:07 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Nov 7 2006, 02:55 PM, said:

Yeah, I think it was Hirohito.

But seriously . . .
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#28 tennyson

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 04:08 PM

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Ah so our saviors from Hitler where unintelligent farmers-but they did it. And they were young and they started learning.

You are very insulting to a bunch of guys that were mostly 18 and 19 year olds who had never been off the farm but took the world on. And they learned and they learned fast.
I'm not being insulting. I'm telling you the absolute truth of the matter. The very nature of war itself has changed so radically that what worked then absolutely will not work now. Saying that the world has changed does not take away from what they did then anymore than saying we have faster ways to move material than the trains of the Civil War does from the Union's accomplishments then.  While all my grandfathers brothers( he volunteered but they wouldn't take him due to a health problem) could go from West Virginia through basic training in a matter of weeks and fight in Europe and the Pacific, even then learning to use a radio or a heavy weapon took additional time. Sixty years of technical change has only added to that.
On a more Iraq specific comment we needed a lot more people with specialized skills like military police, public affairs, people with specific kinds of language and "people" skills that are taught at a higher level than basic training and that draftees would almost be garaunteed not to have without additional training. That hurt us a lot early on and now its too late.


Quote

The thing about all our modern weaponry has been that it was sold as something that was easy, computerized-touch of the button. So...it's not? They have to do all the projectory calculations?
If you're an artillery man, radar operator or other similar area then yes yopu do have to know how to make trajectory calaculations. You also have to learn what those buttons mean, what that command line does and does not do, and so on. But it's not just computers themselves. For the soldier on the ground whose MOS is a pure infantry as possible thier is night vision gear, learning how to use body armor, a host of different sights and addons for your personal weapon including an addon grenade launcher and your communications gear. But infantry is not the majority job in the modern armed services.  From that you have a host of various people who have more and varied jobs that require larger amounts of technical knowledge.
To fly and fight in an Apache helicopter you not only need to be able to use the controls of the aircraft effectively, you need to be able to read touch screens or CRT monitors, work the laser target designator and/or milimeter wave radar,interpret the information from your night vision sight and so on. None of this existed during World War II except for the CRTs and the basic helicopter. It is not an aircraft you can just fly intiutively.
The Abrams tank is not just a machine with a large gun that you drive around, it is part of a computer network that is linked with each other vehicle in its unit. Each man except the loader who has his own system to manage the ammunition has to operate a series of computerized sights to effectively hit the target.
The new Striker vehicle shares many of the same features. It uses the same computer network, sights, has a remote operated machine gun and other new features.
And that's just scratching the surface with the Army.
In aircraft and ships the technical need is that much higher and that much more essential to your ability to stay alive and do the job. You can't even fly an F-16 without the computer systems that keep the aircraft stable in flight let alone fight with it and people have to keep them running.
Even the smallest frigate has dozens of independent electronic systems that need to be managed to navigate, search and fight with it and all of this needs to be kept running.
It's not just being able to read and understand the machines, it is keeping the machines working under even the most hostile conditions. Engineers can build in redundancy but it takes people who know how it works in the field to make sure it stays working.
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#29 Palisades

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 04:45 PM

tennyson, how long would it take to train a raw recruit up to the level necessary for deployment to Iraq as an infantryman or MP?
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#30 SparkyCola

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 05:37 PM

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hope no one flames me for this, but the reason is too many just don't care. Many of them are immigrants who have no love for this country, except for the $$$ they get from it. They can care less of this nation or its government.

heh, that's not the post that offends me. I wonder if this is true, or the result of media influence. The media tends to throw things up and emphasise certain things out of all proportion. Surely immigrants are still quite a minority- despite all the hype about them on the media? Surely- not all immigrants hate the country that saved them from the crap they got at home? Surely anti-patriotic immigrants are not significant enough in number to have the kind of impact you talk about here? I could be wrong of course.

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Another factor is kids aren't taught their history well at all. They take things for granted.


I thought students were some of the most anti-war people out there? That and being the most open-minded, intellectual....:whistle: ....big-headed  :D

Perhaps complacency is an inevitable result of peace - but looking at the surge of anti-war protesting in the UK and the protesting that went on there - we haven't become complacent just yet.

All I know is when I was in school I thought 'if ONE MORE PERSON tells me how much I am 'taking for granted'.... :crazy: ' Practically every single assembly was on this "novel" "thought-provoking" theme  :sarcasm:

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Anything is possible, as long as people let it.

Ah yes, the people who do nothing commit a greater evil thing. I'm not convinced that will ever change, tbh.

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maybe the illegals should be shipped off to fight the war. tell them they're going to fight or they're gonna be sent back to Mexico where they belong.

then they can PROVE they want to be Americans.

*shudder* that's just wrong on SO MANY levels. *throws up*

Right so how racist is THAT comment? and you think dying is sufficient proof of patriotism? Where do you work - the war propaganda department?  :sarcasm: It's like the 'how to tell a witch' thing - talk about lose lose.

I can only presume from that comment that, in your ancestry, you've been where you now live FOREVER. That means you MUST live in Africa. Well, you really DO have a right to get up on that piece of moral high-ground then, and decide who gets to live and die and WHY.

What was the reference for the parable of Jesus shooting the guy who trespassed on his land? :unsure: Taught all about turning away people from other places. Because "where you come from" and land-owning makes such a huge difference to us humans, that obviously it must have incredibly strong links to morality.

Oh...no...WAIT. :angry:

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#31 Kosh

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 05:39 PM

View PostDrew, on Nov 6 2006, 04:58 PM, said:

Everything I've ever read suggests that the people on the front lines against a draft would be the military themselves.


That was before we got in to the present mess. Now that recuriting is so down, and age limits have been raised, about the only step left is a Draft. If we hadn't invaded Iraq, I don't think there would be a problem. We were really doing something in Afganistan, but people are less likley to join after five years, and the number of dead still rising. The last few months have seen more dead all around then any other time during the war. According to what I'm hearing, November has started out worse then the last few months. Maybe the elections have something to do with it, but I don't think people will decide who to vote for based on the war, when the presidents office isn't up for election. Catching up with Foley, and some of the administrations supporters have done more damage to the Republican cause then the war could cause.










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#32 BklnScott

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 05:57 PM

[edited]

Edited by ScottEVill, 08 November 2006 - 12:48 AM.

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#33 Godeskian

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 06:05 PM

View PostDrew, on Nov 7 2006, 08:46 PM, said:

Actually, hasn't someone just proposed this idea? Basically that if they want to stay in the U.S., they must put in a certain amount of time in the service, after which they are automatically given their citizenship? Sounds very familiar.

I recall reading somewhere that a stint in the US armed services either fast tracks you towards citizenship anyway, or allows for some sort of accelerated naturalisation. I believe it was referred to as the 'If you fight under our flag, you become one of us' type of legislation. I'd never suggest forcing someone to do it though.

Let me see if I can find the links.

Edited by Godeskian, 07 November 2006 - 06:06 PM.

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#34 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 06:16 PM

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Hiblette: Ah so our saviors from Hitler where unintelligent farmers-but they did it. And they were young and they started learning.
Maybe you should go back and read what Tennyson said before you hammer on him.  It only costs a little time to ask for clarification or to try to be civil rather than assuming the worse of someone.    

If you looked at the military gear in the 1940s compared to today you'd know he was preaching the truth.  The M1 Garand, perhaps the greatest combat arm ever, is in many ways a very simple piece of equipment compared to a M16.  It would be a step or two up on the evolutionary scale compared to the hunting rifles that many of the soldiers in World War II would be used to handling.  The M16 is a far more complex weapon and a major PITA to maintain in the field.  On top of that most teenagers today haven't even handled a firearm in their life compared to the 1940s.

In that case we are just looking at the rifles.  We haven't even gone into the network centric nature of warfare today the various electronic devices our troops use.  Comparing a M4 Sherman to an Abrams tank is like comparing a horse and wagon to a steam locomotive.
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#35 G1223

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 06:20 PM

Sorry sending people who do not want to be part of our armed forces is wrong. The military is not set up to deal with people who by their nature do not want to be there.

The reason for a draft after Pearl Harbor was to make the assignment of manpower as useful to the services as possible.
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#36 Drew

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 06:47 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Nov 7 2006, 05:05 PM, said:

I'd never suggest forcing someone to do it though.

No, me either. I just thought I heard about this sort of opportunity recently, though, as if some legislation was going through one of the houses of Congress. Maybe not.
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#37 Hibblette

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 07:25 PM

View PostG1223, on Nov 7 2006, 05:20 PM, said:

Sorry sending people who do not want to be part of our armed forces is wrong. The military is not set up to deal with people who by their nature do not want to be there.

The reason for a draft after Pearl Harbor was to make the assignment of manpower as useful to the services as possible.

The draft started before Pearl Harbor-it was for one year only but that soon changed.

The equipment that the grunts had back in WWII perhaps it was simple but the guys had to think on their toes in situations that meant life or death.  Actually the grunts of this war or WWII or WWI are no different in the sense that equipment goes out and things happen and they have to think quickly to survive and that's when the brain power comes in.

Now with the heavy artillery yep-that takes the training always has.  But the guns that the regular GI carries, actually I've read reports were they are not quite up to par.

I'm not talking about the guys that are aiming the guided missiles.  Yea-those guys have to be trained.  

But the grunt has a gun and his wits and it's always been that way.  And now days we even expect them to have body armor.

They didn't have too much of that back on Normandy-the Helmet...and that was a pretty effective device.
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#38 Jid

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:22 PM

View PostDrew, on Nov 7 2006, 05:47 PM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Nov 7 2006, 05:05 PM, said:

I'd never suggest forcing someone to do it though.

No, me either. I just thought I heard about this sort of opportunity recently, though, as if some legislation was going through one of the houses of Congress. Maybe not.
I've heard the idea of an "American Foreign Legion" batted around, though I don't recall ever hearing it from anyone other than commentators.

I don't know if it's "kosher" to co-opt an idea from the French down there yet, but it's an idea with significant merit.  

(IIRC, the French Foreign Legion requires the applicant to make it into the country under their own steam, and sign a five-year contract that states they will go wherever the French Military requires.  After three years, they can then apply for French citizenship for themselves and their immediate family, or a permanent resident status that's renewable after 10 years.  Of course, your immediate family would have to be one you started after joining the legion... I don't think they allow married candidates.)

Edited by Jid, 07 November 2006 - 09:23 PM.

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#39 tennyson

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:46 PM

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tennyson, how long would it take to train a raw recruit up to the level necessary for deployment to Iraq as an infantryman or MP?

I'd estimate about two years, including language studies, cultural issues and enough overall training to function as part of a unit. Special Forces have a lot more training than that, including college degrees and a significant portion have Masters degrees in thier operating area, but you wouldn't need that much to be able to function effectively in the policing role.  
The military has been over the last few years instituting additional training to try to make soldiers more familiar with what they will be dealing with in Iraq. They have execises in the States where they have actors run the unit through how to deal with the natives, manage disputes, act appropriately to build trust and so on in simulated villages and cities. It helps but reality is always more complicated than any training exercise.
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#40 Rhea

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:18 PM

View PostSpectacles, on Nov 6 2006, 04:54 PM, said:

The draft ended in 1973. (I was nineteen, and I remember the collective sigh of relief.)

http://usmilitary.ab...rafthistory.htm

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