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Saddam Hussein to receive the death penalty

Iraq Saddam Hussein Death Penalty 2006

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#41 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 03:31 PM

View PostSmitty, on Nov 6 2006, 02:04 PM, said:

View PostDrew, on Nov 6 2006, 01:30 PM, said:

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Actually, I wouldn't put Saddam to death....I'd toss him in a cell where the walls are lined with pictures of the faces of everyone he's had killed

I don't know if there's a cell with big enough walls for that. :(
That and it only works if Saddam Hussein had a conscience, which I doubt.

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#42 SparkyCola

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 07:35 PM

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And then we become like him. The only difference we'd be doing it because it was 'justice' while he did it because he was a 'monster'. Beware about staring into the abyss, it has a tendency to stare back.

What Gode said, as usual.  :rolleyes:

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Really? I see it as more of Karma than anything else.

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With this, you are to some extent referring to my beliefs, so I feel a lot of resistance in accepting what you say here, Spidey

Before I read your comment, Ilyanna, I had the following response lined up to Spidey's post:

I hope there aren't any Buddhists reading this, because I don't want to see a Buddhist have to suffer that comment.

But unfortunately... :sarcasm:

I don't know whether or not you are Buddhist or not, but same thing applies.

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I believe that killing another human being is wrong. Nobody has the right to do that to another person. The fact that people do it anyway doesn't give others the right to do so, too. Killing in the name of justice is, IMO, as wrong as killing in the name of any other reason.
No human being can possibly know if another person deserves to be killed. To do so, you would have to see the really big picture... which in this case would mean that you have to look at all possible developments that come from killing that person, all possible developments that come from not killing the person, all things that lead to the offense done by that person, all things that develop because that person did the offense. And of course the time period that you will have to look at is starting from the big bang to the unknown future... you get my drift? To look at the really big picture, you would have to step outside space and time, and last I heard, no human being is currently able to do that.

One of the most impressive things JRR Tolkien let Gandalf say was "Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

:love: It deserved being said again.

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Calling a human being a "thing" can be a way to excuse that we do something to him/her that we know deep inside is not right. We might feel better by believing that somebody who did terrible things cannot be of the same species as oneself is, because we can then kill that little voice inside of us that says "being from the same species, maybe we have the potential to do such deeds, too", but only because we would like to make that true, doesn't make it so. Once again: Saddam Hussein is a human being. I hope you will be able to deal with it.


Ok now i've pretty much just quoted your whole post. "What Ilyanna said" would have been shorter, but like I say, it deserves being said again, in case anyone missed it. The irony of you posting this, after calling *me* eloquent (I assure you that word is very rarely applied to me and with good reason :lol: ). Very well written indeed, and it's fantastic seeing someone who thinks the same way  :D There's hope yet!

Sparky

Edited by SparkyCola, 06 November 2006 - 07:36 PM.

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#43 Ilyanna

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 03:37 AM

^Thank you Sparky, it feels very good to see that you appreciate my post and feel the same way :love: (In fact, I can't seem to get that smile off my face any more  ;)  :D )
Unfortunately the majority of posts here say that their posters think otherwise, but as you said... there is hope.

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I don't know whether or not you are Buddhist or not, but same thing applies.
I wouldn't call myself a Buddhist, I just look at a lot of different philosophies, religions and scientific approaches and choose to believe what feels right about them. Buddhism is a major influence for me, but not the only one.  :)
Anyway, I appreciated Spideys post for the chance to tell my view on that, no suffering here  ;)  :)
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#44 G1223

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 04:37 AM

Then I presume that killing in self defense is also wrong.  It is better to use good thought and kind words to make people like Saddam see the error of their  ways. .....

Yeah and after they suck the marrow from the last bits of your bones maybe you will see that putting to death (Not torture)  those who are proven monsters is duty of the state towards the people it claims to serve otherwise the only justice one can get is the justice taken by victims or their families upon those who commit such crimes.

And I think it better that such men die so the rest of us can be saved their actions.
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#45 Ilyanna

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 06:21 AM

View PostG1223, on Nov 7 2006, 10:37 AM, said:

Yeah and after they suck the marrow from the last bits of your bones maybe you will see that putting to death (Not torture)  those who are proven monsters is duty of the state towards the people it claims to serve otherwise the only justice one can get is the justice taken by victims or their families upon those who commit such crimes.

And I think it better that such men die so the rest of us can be saved their actions.

You are, of course, entitled to have that opinion as much as I am to have a completely different one.  :)

View PostG1223, on Nov 7 2006, 10:37 AM, said:

Then I presume that killing in self defense is also wrong.  It is better to use good thought and kind words to make people like Saddam see the error of their  ways. .....
I am not sure if you read that in my posts, or, if you did, exactly what made you think that I said anything like that. If you did - well, in fact I do believe so. Unfortunately, I am quite sure that my survival instinct will overrule that belief if I ever get into a situation where it is "kill or be killed". But in that kind of situation, I sincerely hope that I will try anything else before I actually kill. As for the second part... I am 99,9999% certain that Saddam Hussein wouldn't be bothered by anything I might think or tell him. But that doesn't mean one can't try, a possibility of 0.0001% is still that: a possibility.
And for the record - there are million ways to react to people like Saddam Hussein between "good thoughts and kind words" on the one hand and "killing in the name of justice" on the other. What I am opposed is killing somebody, I never said there shouldn't be some way to protect people from him or to stop his doings.
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#46 Chakoteya

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 07:35 AM

View PostG1223, on Nov 6 2006, 01:46 PM, said:

I do not know how putting Saddam in a jail cell is going to bring justice to all those victims. As the Nazi leadership was put to death for their crimes so should Saddam.

Actually, Hitler, Himmler and Goebbels were already dead by their own hands and Martin Bormann was missing. Eleven of the remaining top men including Goering were sentenced to hang while Hess and others got prison sentences. Some were acquitted.
And that's hardly a fair analogy anyway. The Nazi regime committed monstrous crimes outside Germany. Saddam didn't, not on that scale anyway.

I think some people are using the word justice to be synonymous with revenge. It's a common occurance these days. There is no punishment that can pay for the loss of a loved one. Let's bear that in mind. Or do you have in mind an appropriate price for a life? Perhaps we should return to the old blood-money system, where the guilty has to pay up in cash for the deed.
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#47 Mark

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 08:17 AM

Mark: ^^ But on the other hand, if Saddam were allowed to live in prison, he'd just be something for terrorist to try to negotiate for. His release would be a term for every possible terrorist act from now till he dies.
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#48 Ilyanna

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:50 AM

^ I see your point, but IMO, someone who wants to do an act of terror will always find a reason or excuse to justify it. It may be to free Saddam Hussein, or to have revenge for his death, or religious / political differences, or just because one hates the way trees are growing.

So yes, I agree that there is the possibility that terrorists would try to free him, but there is also the possibility that killing him will lead to terrorist acts, too, don't you think?
Moreover, wouldn't it be some (schizophrenic) kind of anticipatory obedience to terrorists to kill S.H. because then they would have one reason less to drop a bomb somewhere?
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#49 Mark

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:51 AM

View PostIlyanna, on Nov 7 2006, 08:50 AM, said:

^ I see your point, but IMO, someone who wants to do an act of terror will always find a reason or excuse to justify it. It may be to free Saddam Hussein, or to have revenge for his death, or religious / political differences, or just because one hates the way trees are growing.

So yes, I agree that there is the possibility that terrorists would try to free him, but there is also the possibility that killing him will lead to terrorist acts, too, don't you think?
Moreover, wouldn't it be some (schizophrenic) kind of anticipatory obedience to terrorists to kill S.H. because then they would have one reason less to drop a bomb somewhere?

Mark: Yes, your point has merit too. I'm glad it's up to the Iraqis, and not us.
Mark
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#50 ilexx

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:54 AM

Does the timing of the verdict being issued two days before the American mid-term elections also strike others as a bit awkward or is it just me?

#51 Ilyanna

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:54 AM

^^ Man, you're a fast typer! :D
Yes, I count myself lucky to not be in their shoes, for more than that one reason :)

Edited by Ilyanna, 07 November 2006 - 09:57 AM.

On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
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#52 Mark

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:59 AM

View PostIlyanna, on Nov 7 2006, 08:54 AM, said:

^^ Man, you're a fast typer! :D
Yes, I count myself lucky to not be in their shoes, for more than that one reason :)

Mark:
Sometimes I type at warp speed.  :D
Mark
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#53 G1223

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:35 AM

[quote name='Chakoteya' date='Nov 7 2006, 07:35 AM' post='920669']


Actually, Hitler, Himmler and Goebbels were already dead by their own hands and Martin Bormann was missing. Eleven of the remaining top men including Goering were sentenced to hang while Hess and others got prison sentences. Some were acquitted. [/quote]

and of those eleven only Goering was able to cheat the hangman. The rest who were guilty of their crimes got to hang.

[quote]
And that's hardly a fair analogy anyway. The Nazi regime committed monstrous crimes outside Germany. Saddam didn't, not on that scale anyway. [/qoute]

You are correct on the scale but Saddam gassed the Kurds. He beat to death and had put to death on his command thousands of people.

Then again the editoral cartoon in the Star today summed it up best.

The caption reads Saddam's victims reaction to verdict.

It then shows a pile of grinning skulls.


[quote]
I think some people are using the word justice to be synonymous with revenge. It's a common occurance these days. [/quote]

The Chinese said it best sometimes Revenge is the only Justice people will get.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
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#54 Drew

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 12:17 PM

View Postilexx, on Nov 7 2006, 08:54 AM, said:

Does the timing of the verdict being issued two days before the American mid-term elections also strike others as a bit awkward or is it just me?

Awkward at best, although there's still the appeal process, so it's not like he's going to be hanging today.

If he was being tried in a U.S. courtroom, I would be more suspicious.
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#55 BklnScott

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 12:24 PM

There is no doubt in my mind that the verdict was rushed to coincide with the elections.  

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In particular, print outlets did not note that, while the Supreme Iraqi Criminal Tribunal (SICT) declared Saddam guilty of "crimes against humanity" and sentenced him to death, the judges did not release the full verdict, which, as NBC News Middle East correspondent Richard Engel reported on November 5, presumably "explain[s] how and why" the judgment was reached. U.S. officials have said that the full ruling will be released on November 9, leading Engel to ask on NBC News' Blogging Baghdad weblog, "So why issue the verdict today?"

Why didn't they release the full verdict?  It's not ready yet.

Edited by ScottEVill, 07 November 2006 - 12:25 PM.

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#56 Drew

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 12:30 PM

Man, I'm glad I stopped reading blogs. I thought I was cynical.
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#57 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 01:12 PM

View PostChakoteya, on Nov 7 2006, 06:35 AM, said:

View PostG1223, on Nov 6 2006, 01:46 PM, said:

I do not know how putting Saddam in a jail cell is going to bring justice to all those victims. As the Nazi leadership was put to death for their crimes so should Saddam.

Actually, Hitler, Himmler and Goebbels were already dead by their own hands and Martin Bormann was missing. Eleven of the remaining top men including Goering were sentenced to hang while Hess and others got prison sentences. Some were acquitted.
And that's hardly a fair analogy anyway. The Nazi regime committed monstrous crimes outside Germany. Saddam didn't, not on that scale anyway.


While the Big 11 were sentenced to death (10 to hang; 1 suicide), Of the other remaining 10 defendants, 3 were aquitted, the rest were given life in prison or lengthy prison terms (the lowest was Doenitz at 10 years, IIRC).  However, the three who were acquitted (Fritzsche, Schacht, Papen) and  were later tried by German denazification courts and sentenced to prison, though they (and many like them) were out in a matter of a few years.  

The 21 defendents (originally 22--Robert Ley committed suicide before the trial began) were handled by the International Tribunal for their crimes committed against other nations (hence, "Crimes Against Peace" charges) and their cases were dispensed.  Others were tried by US, UK, French, and Russian Tribunals in the 4 zones of occupation, but these dealt with crimes similar to the Big 21 in Nuremburg.  The Germans later came behind with their Denazification Courts and there were trials for those who committed crimes during the Third Reich.  So, in reality, what's going on with S.H. is more comparable to the Denazification Courts than the Nuremburg Tribunal.

I'm still very glad we're letting the Iraqis handled their own affairs here; simpler and safer.

Edited by Lost Cause, 07 November 2006 - 01:12 PM.

Rose: [disgusted] Oh, look at what the cat dragged in: "The Oncoming Storm."

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." -- John Wayne


Sometimes the best causes worth fighting for are lost causes. -- Me.

Formerly Known as "Lost Cause."


#58 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 02:53 PM

Only one phrase is appropriate here: "Na na na na, Na na na na, Hey hey hey, GOODBYE"

Good riddance.

Besides, didn't Saddam himself say, in the very beginning, that if the court wanted his neck they could have it. Guess they wanted it.
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#59 SparkyCola

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 06:04 PM

It is better to use good thought and kind words to make people like Saddam see the error of their ways. .....

Ah yes. The classic 'kill or be killed' argument.

There are always other options. In the UK, we don't have the death sentence. That doesn't mean we live in a den of iniquity and crime and violence. Well....it could be worse at least.

SOMEBODY didn't grow up with the A-Team :p Ok bad analogy.  :whistle:  I'm a pragmatic pacifist. I believe there is almost always another way to go about it. I believe using intelligence is much better than using brute force. But what we're talking about here is completely different anyways. The death penalty is about killing someone in cold blood for - not justice - but revenge. I believe that revenge is ALWAYS wrong. After that credo... :rolleyes: of course you are more than entitled to your own opinion  ;) I've always been of the view that when it comes to matters of opinion, no one's right and no one's wrong - then again, that's just my opinion  :hehe:

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I am 99,9999% certain that Saddam Hussein wouldn't be bothered by anything I might think or tell him. But that doesn't mean one can't try, a possibility of 0.0001% is still that: a possibility.


Quite so. Fact is - I only have control over what *I* do. Therefore - what I do is more important than how Saddam responds to it. My integrity is more important to me than what he thinks of me. I am a self-proclaimed hypocrite. I have one set of standards for myself, and another set for other people - I don't think I'm alone in that either.

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#60 Godeskian

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 06:09 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on Nov 7 2006, 11:04 PM, said:

My integrity is more important to me than what he thinks of me. I am a self-proclaimed hypocrite. I have one set of standards for myself, and another set for other people - I don't think I'm alone in that either.

Hardly. Do as I say, not as I do has been around for a long time. Hypocrisy seems to come easy to us as a species, and on the face of it i'm not always sure it's a bad thing either.

But then I've been told before that my playbook doesn't match that of the rest of the world anyway

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