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Which would you prefer for President in 08?

Election 2008 Speculation

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#1 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 12:41 PM

Just curious here. Would you rather a Rep or Dem be president? Personally, seeing the way the GOP went nuts with having full power, right now I'd probably prefer a Republican President in 08. With a Democratic controlled congress, having a Democratic President might just be a bad Bush with a Republican controlled Congress.

But the if we do have a Rep for President, and if the GOP takes back control of Congress in the next mid term...It'll be the mess we had with Bush all over again....
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#2 Palisades

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 01:05 PM

I'd prefer a Republican to a Democrat. Even if we completely eliminate all pork, Medicare will still bust the budget. A Republican President would be less likely to spare Medicare the machete job that must be done to it if we are to avoid fiscal suicide. Also, if a Democrat were elected President, he'd likely give us a health care proposal that makes HillaryCare look like it was proposed by a libertarian.

Edited by Solar Wind, 14 November 2006 - 02:04 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

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#3 enTranced

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 01:39 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Nov 14 2006, 05:41 PM, said:

With a Democratic controlled congress, having a Democratic President might just be a bad Bush with a Republican controlled Congress.
Since you only give us two choices I'm going to say Democratic. The last 6 years have been pretty painful both for the nation and personaly my household thanks to the sluggish economy. I have watched my actual real take home evaporate year by year thanks to the high cost for just about everything even though during Bush's tenure my paycheck says my salery has grown. This year I have been trying to get a new job to combat this money erosion and it has been much harder then I thought it would be since the job market is in the crapper.

If we are talking about just to parties then we need the opposition of the party that did this to us, but just bringing over from the discussion in the Gulliani thread I would like to see somebody in a third party to actualy win the big house to force both sides to actualy work together to repair the Dubyah damage.

enTranced

Edited by enTranced, 14 November 2006 - 01:42 PM.

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#4 Cait

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 02:01 PM

It totally depends on the state of each Party come 2008 and the candidates.  I trend towards Democrats, but I have voted more than once [tho not for Bush] for Republican candidates for President, etc.

It all depends.  If the election were held today, with the known runners I'd vote Democratic, because I tend to think that Bush and his failings are a reflection of inherent flaws in the GOP.  So, I would not trust the GOP no matter who they put up if the election were held today.

But, I have no idea where the GOP or the Democrats will be in two years or what their platform will be.  So, it depends.  

Vague I know.. it's a curse.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#5 Kosh

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 02:18 PM

So far no one has been impressive. I'm waiting for someone to take the reins and get the wagon moving, but so fdar it's just a bunch of sticks in the mud. Same old people, same old crap. The only one now, that has already run, and I would vote for him a second time, would be Al Gore. I don't think he's going to run. Right now the best bet looks like Clinton/Obama in '08. We know so little about Obama, that his past can't hurt him, and I think Hillary is the only one with much of a chance at beating McCain, and I want to see that flip floper beaten badly.
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#6 Zwolf

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 02:21 PM

I'm hesitant to have a Republican, because the current state of that party is a real mess, and they need to be completely out of power for a while to encourage them to re-work it.  They need to be sent the message that "what you've been doing lately is not what the country wants."  An anti-mandate, if you will.

On the other hand, the country usually fares a lot better when the Congress and the White House are opposing parties.  They hold each other in check pretty well.   You can see what a horrible mess we're in after one-party-control of the country over the past six years.  I like to think Dems would handle one-party-control a little better than the Bush administration did, but there's no guarantee of that.  They'd probably govern better with someone keeping them in check... because, really, both parties have some good ideas, and both parties also have some bad ideas.  So a free hand isn't a good thing to give 'em.

That said, I'd have a hard time voting for a Republican right now.  It'll depend on who the GOP runs, and who the Dems run.   If the GOP runs a moderate like McCain, and the Dems run some far-left goofball like Kucinich, I'll vote Republican, no contest.  And if it's Newt Gingrich vs. Damnnear Anybody, I'll go with the Dems.  If it's a couple of more moderate types, then it'll be a tougher call.

Cheers,

Zwolf
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"There are things that I'd like to say
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There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#7 Lover of Purple

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 02:23 PM

The Purple Party. I vote....Me!
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#8 Cait

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 02:24 PM

View PostKosh, on Nov 14 2006, 11:18 AM, said:

... and I think Hillary is the only one with much of a chance at beating McCain, and I want to see that flip floper beaten badly.

Did you hear McCain on Meet the Press on Sunday?  I wanted to hurl he flipped around on his past statements so much.  

There was a time [a long time ago] when I thought he would be a good choice, but not now.  He's a politician now, taking out of both sides of his mouth.

Shame really, he had a lot of potential.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#9 veganmom

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 02:59 PM

McCain HAD potential. He has so sold out, it's a complete disgrace. I don't know of anyone who supports him now, and I know many people who were singing his praises about 4-6 years ago. He's a whore (forgive me), selling his soul. Many feel betrayed.

And Kucinich is GREAT, Zwolf. Know how I know? He's VEGAN.
;-)

Seriously, you have to admire someone who actually lives his priorities re. the environment....

You know, vs. someone who SAYS they have priorities but acts completely differently (still bitter about Specter and the torture bill.....Santorum's out, Specter's next...).

Obama I think has potential, and personality, but he hasn't even finished his first term as Senator. Then again, we had Quayle, courtesy of GHWBush....How much experience did HE have when he made VP???
OK, you made me look it up. Thank you -- I enjoyed remembering all the quotes...What a loser! But, he was elected to Congress in '76, Senate in '80 and VP in '88, so he had much more experience than Obama.
So do you think Obama for VP in 2008, or is he the party's future, perhaps in 2016?

#10 enTranced

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 03:01 PM

View PostCait, on Nov 14 2006, 07:24 PM, said:

Shame really, he had a lot of potential.

Which one?  :devil:

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#11 Cait

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 03:04 PM

View PostenTranced, on Nov 14 2006, 12:01 PM, said:

View PostCait, on Nov 14 2006, 07:24 PM, said:


Shame really, he had a lot of potential.

Which one?  :devil:

enTranced

LOL, well I was talking about McCain, but I guess they all start out with potiential don't thye?!  And then sell their souls to the money machine.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#12 Palisades

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 03:06 PM

^ I didn't watch it. What were McCain's biggest flip flops?
"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#13 Dev F

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 03:22 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Nov 14 2006, 11:41 AM, said:

Personally, seeing the way the GOP went nuts with having full power, right now I'd probably prefer a Republican President in 08. With a Democratic controlled congress, having a Democratic President might just be a bad Bush with a Republican controlled Congress.
I'd very much like for the Democrats to have a shot at running both branches, at least long enough to get some justices onto the Supreme Court. Poor Stevens and Breyer can't hang in there forever, and I shudder to imagine a Court in which they've been replaced by more little Scalitos. . . .

Edited to add: Hmm, Breyer is younger than I thought, considering the ages of everyone else on the court. I guess Stevens is the only one liable to fall over dead any day now, but that in itself would be a major loss for civil libertarians.

Edited by Dev F, 14 November 2006 - 03:29 PM.


#14 Cait

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 03:34 PM

Oh you're right, I forgot about the court.  I take it back, I'd vote for a Democrat to stop to slide to the right on the court.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#15 Cait

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 03:37 PM

View PostSolar Wind, on Nov 14 2006, 12:06 PM, said:

^ I didn't watch it. What were McCain's biggest flip flops?

Here's a link, you can watch it.. if you're not at work or something.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/

Click on the one that has the whole show.. it's long but it is worth it to listen to both Leiberman and McCain.  The other link is only one short segment of  McCain and he didn't flip flop there at all.

Edited by Cait, 14 November 2006 - 03:42 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#16 Palisades

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 04:21 PM

^ I skimmed the transcript. McCain engaged in some doubletalk on ethanol and the Kerry gaffe.

I noticed that McCain implicitly acknowledged the dangers of global climate change and that (cellulosic) ethanol could help. If that's a change in his position, I think it's a positive one. I'm not seeing anything particularly troubling in his statements in this interview. Did you have something particular in mind?

Edited by Solar Wind, 14 November 2006 - 04:39 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#17 Anastashia

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 04:31 PM

Apparently Senator Susan Collins (R-ME) is considering or being considered by somebody for VP. So far that's just from the trailers for this evening's local news repport. I'm eagerly awaiting it for specifics.

She's another moderate. She's been a potential presidential candidate in my eyes for quite a while. Apparently I'm not the only one who sees it that way.

Quote

In February 2006, TheWhiteHouseProject.org[1] named Susan Collins one of its "8 in '08", a group of eight female politicians who could possibly run and/or be elected president in 2008.
http://www.sourcewat...e=Susan_Collins

I also found this interesting in light of the discussion re the abortion issue/moderate Republican position in the Guiliani thread.
http://www.vote-smar...can_id=BC032786

Edited by Anastashia, 14 November 2006 - 04:36 PM.

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#18 veganmom

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 04:36 PM

SolarWind, re. McCain: My general perception has been that he has portrayed himself as a moderate, but in truth is a Bush ultra-right-wing.
I did a quick Google search and found this write-up from March 2006
http://www.truthout....6/031406Z.shtml
I'm sure someone else can find something more recent.
A couple of points that commentary made:

Quote

Mr. McCain's reputation as a moderate may be based on his former opposition to the Bush tax cuts. In 2001 he declared, "I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us."

    But now - at a time of huge budget deficits and an expensive war, when the case against tax cuts for the rich is even stronger - Mr. McCain is happy to shower benefits on the most fortunate. He recently voted to extend tax cuts on dividends and capital gains, an action that will worsen the budget deficit while mainly benefiting people with very high incomes.

Quote

When it comes to social issues, Mr. McCain, who once called Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell "agents of intolerance," met with Mr. Falwell late last year. Perhaps as a result, he is now taking positions friendly to the religious right. Most notably, Mr. McCain's spokesperson says that he would have signed South Dakota's extremist new anti-abortion law

Quote

The bottom line is that Mr. McCain isn't a moderate; he's a man of the hard right. How far right? A statistical analysis of Mr. McCain's recent voting record, available at www.voteview.com, ranks him as the Senate's third most conservative member.


I just wanted to get you something more than, "He betrayed our faith in him."
and by "our," I mean middle-of-the-road types looking for a consensus, not further polarization.

If I had time, I'd get you more facts.

Here's a blog entry, but I've included it mostly for the picture at the top
http://downwithtyran...sh-is-john.html

Edited by veganmom, 14 November 2006 - 04:38 PM.


#19 Anastashia

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 04:50 PM

veganmom, EDIT - just saw your edit that listed www.voteview.com.

Project Vote Smart  that I linked to above for Senator Collins looks kind of interesting too although I really haven't had a chance to look at it extensively yet. I like that they seem to rate potential candidates on how their position supports the position of various groups that have an interest in an issue.

There's quite an extensive list of issues covered:

Abortion
Agriculture
Animal Rights/Wildlife
Arts/Humanities
Budget/Taxes
Business/Consumer
Civil Liberties
Civil Rights
Conservative
Crime
Education
Energy
Environment
Family/Children
Foreign Policy/Aid
Gender
Government Reform
Gun
Health
Immigration
Labor
Legal
Liberal
Military
National Journal
National Security
Science/Medical
Senior/Social Security
Social
Technology/Communications
Trade
Transportation
Veterans
Welfare/Poverty

Edited by Anastashia, 14 November 2006 - 04:56 PM.

The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

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#20 Zwolf

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 05:06 PM

Quote

The Purple Party. I vote....Me!

I didn't realize that was an option...  okay, I'll vote LoP! :)

Quote

And Kucinich is GREAT, Zwolf.

He's a weird little elf!  I don't want to vote for him... I want to grab the wee laddie by the scruff of the neck and make him tell me where in begorrah he hid his pot o' gold!

Quote

Know how I know? He's VEGAN.
;-)

I thought his eyes were making a valiant effort to move around to the sides of his head...  ;)  (I kid Veganmom, 'cuz I think she'll let me get away with it! ;) )


Quote

Seriously, you have to admire someone who actually lives his priorities re. the environment....

Eh, I'm not a major environmentalist.  I like the environment, but I'm also in favor of judiciously using the environment.  Kuchinich struck me as not only hugging trees, but using them as a factory to bake delicious E. L. Fudge cookies!

Quote

You know, vs. someone who SAYS they have priorities but acts completely differently

*cough uniternotadivider cough!*

Quote

(still bitter about Specter

I'm a-scairt o' specters!

Quote

and the torture bill.....Santorum's out, Specter's next...).

Good ol' Santorum.  I'm glad he's got some time off to try to recapture the sanity that fled away from him so long ago...

Quote

Obama I think has potential, and personality, but he hasn't even finished his first term as Senator. Then again, we had Quayle, courtesy of GHWBush....How much experience did HE have when he made VP???
OK, you made me look it up. Thank you -- I enjoyed remembering all the quotes...What a loser! But, he was elected to Congress in '76, Senate in '80 and VP in '88, so he had much more experience than Obama.
So do you think Obama for VP in 2008, or is he the party's future, perhaps in 2016?

I like Obama a lot (even though he's a bit religious for my taste), and I'd be enthusiastic about voting for him, but I hope he'll wait a bit to run, or maybe get the Veep ticket.   I think he's a great guy, but he's just lacking experience, and needs a chance to get some of that.

Other than the experience factor, though, I think he's got a LOT of potential.  One main thing that a president needs to be is a good communicator (which is why people are so quick to overlook most of Reagan's many flaws - he bungled the budget and built a huge deficit and had some military misadventures, but damn if he couldn't make a great speech).   Whenever I hear Obama on TV but don't look up, I think it's The Rock.  And that's a good thing.  The Rock was so-so as a wrestler, but he cut some of the best promos ever in the business... and Obama is his auditory twin.  If he works on his eyebrow lifts and uses "If ya smellll-lalalala-LA... what the Barak is cookin'!" as a campain slogan, he might just body-slam his way into the White House... :)

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"



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