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U.S. commander decries Iraq Timetable

Iraq 2006 Time table Troop withdraw Criticism

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#1 Mark

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 08:38 PM

Mark: Article

WASHINGTON - The top U.S. commander in the Middle East warned Congress Wednesday against setting a timetable for withdrawing U.S. troops from
Iraq, rejecting the arguments of resurgent Democrats who are pressing
President Bush to start pulling out.
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Gen. John Abizaid instead urged quick action to strengthen Iraq's government, predicting that the vicious sectarian violence in Baghdad would surge out of control within four to six months unless immediate steps were taken.

Mark
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#2 G1223

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 11:08 AM

But the dems are not calling for a pull out. Just ask them this week. Now next week when the wind shifts again I am sure bellowing cries of "lets get out of there" will fill the halls of congress.
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#3 Mark

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 11:12 AM

G:

Quote

But the dems are not calling for a pull out.

Mark: ....YET.  They will.
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#4 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 11:12 AM

^Actually, Sen. Carl Levin was calling for the WH to announce to the Iraqi gov't that American troops will be pulling out beginning in 4-6 months.  See:  http://www.breitbart.../D8LDKDCO0.html

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#5 G1223

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 11:28 AM

So did Durbin and I think we need to do it on the first day of the new congress. Leave the mess in their laps. After all they have demanded it so give it to them quickly.  Then go for a downsizing of the military before they ask for one.  Also pull out of Afganistan and Bosnia  before the end of 07.
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#6 Mark

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 11:30 AM

View PostG1223, on Nov 16 2006, 10:28 AM, said:

So did Durbin and I think we need to do it on the first day of the new congress. Leave the mess in their laps. After all they have demanded it so give it to them quickly.  Then go for a downsizing of the military before they ask for one.  Also pull out of Afganistan and Bosnia  before the end of 07.

Mark: They'll have to work that into their busy schedule of impeachment, and investigations.
Oh, and luncheons with their newly appointed LARGER staffs, in their nice new LARGER, more expensive offices.

Edited by Mark, 16 November 2006 - 11:32 AM.

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#7 BklnScott

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 11:36 AM

I think it goes the other way -- investigations, then (depending on what's uncovered) impeachment.

'Course, people can be forgiven for forgetting that, since Republican office holders of the past decade or so have tended to "fix the facts around the policy" rather than the other way around (e.g., Iraq, impeaching Bill Clinton, Teri Schiavo).  

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#8 enTranced

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 11:40 AM

View PostG1223, on Nov 16 2006, 04:08 PM, said:

But the dems are not calling for a pull out. Just ask them this week. Now next week when the wind shifts again I am sure bellowing cries of "lets get out of there" will fill the halls of congress.

Instead of bellyaching about strawmen cut and run stuff I think it's time for the military or republicans or Superman to come up with a idea that DOESN'T involve just leaving.

I don't know what to do. Right now I just want us to stop wasting American lives and treasure on a plan that DOES. NOT. WORK. It was a stupid plan then and it's a stupid plan now.

Now if somebody comes up with a great plan to clean up our mess, and yes, I know, it IS our mess then great. But if not then it is long past time to admidt to the world, sorry we f*cked up and leave.

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#9 G1223

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 11:41 AM

Oh no what you have is Bush invite members of congress up to the White House and annonce it  afterwards right then and there. You alert military commanders a week before the meeting and have the assets in place and pull out.
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#10 G1223

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 11:43 AM

View PostenTranced, on Nov 16 2006, 11:40 AM, said:

View PostG1223, on Nov 16 2006, 04:08 PM, said:

But the dems are not calling for a pull out. Just ask them this week. Now next week when the wind shifts again I am sure bellowing cries of "lets get out of there" will fill the halls of congress.

Instead of bellyaching about strawmen cut and run stuff I think it's time for the military or republicans or Superman to come up with a idea that DOESN'T involve just leaving.

I don't know what to do. Right now I just want us to stop wasting American lives and treasure on a plan that DOES. NOT. WORK. It was a stupid plan then and it's a stupid plan now.

Now if somebody comes up with a great plan to clean up our mess, and yes, I know, it IS our mess then great. But if not then it is long past time to admidt to the world, sorry we f*cked up and leave.

enTranced

Excuse me strawman? I took Durbins actual comments to mena lets pull out as quickly as possible. IT was how the press presented it.

Could you give us a actual translation of what he meant. OR am I not suppose to take them by what they actually say.

IS there Dummies Guide to Speaking Dmeocrat?
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

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#11 Cait

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 11:54 AM

And how would you handle the quagmire in Iraq?  Tell me how you'd spent those lives and money, and what you think we'll accomplish by 'Staying the course"?  

Because, besides bellyaching about those that want to "cut & run", I'm not hearing a battle plan for successfully staying either.  Or do we just leave American soldiers there until they are all dead?

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#12 G1223

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 12:02 PM

View PostCait, on Nov 16 2006, 11:54 AM, said:

And how would you handle the quagmire in Iraq?  Tell me how you'd spent those lives and money, and what you think we'll accomplish by 'Staying the course"?  

Because, besides bellyaching about those that want to "cut & run", I'm not hearing a battle plan for successfully staying either.  Or do we just leave American soldiers there until they are all dead?


The military said it needed more troops but the shouts from the DNC kept that from happening.  Those experts who talked about staying the course did so with the goal of getting those troops. But since the dems always cut and run why even bother trying to stay. Their leadership has said one thing and their rank and file another.

Cait I am agreeing lets get out. Afterwards we can hear the demos say "Well if you had stayed we might have fixed it." You voted these guys in on the cut and run idea so lets give you want you want.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#13 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 12:11 PM

I believe we need to withdraw from Iraq, but, if we leave too quickly, we leave a power vacuum that will be filled with the violence of the insurgency helping to collapse the fledgling gov't that's gotten started there.  We leave to slowly, we only encourage the insurgency to keep hitting us where it hurts and destabilize the fledgeling Iraqi gov't which needs help, not hits.  Where is the damned middle ground in all of this?  There has to be something workable between the two parties to figure out how to safely and feasably extract our boys from Iraq without pulling the pillars of the country down on the people there as we exit.  Fleeing is not answer; staying is not answer.  What is then?

Rose: [disgusted] Oh, look at what the cat dragged in: "The Oncoming Storm."

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Formerly Known as "Lost Cause."


#14 Cait

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 12:27 PM

View PostLost Cause, on Nov 16 2006, 09:11 AM, said:

I believe we need to withdraw from Iraq, but, if we leave too quickly, we leave a power vacuum that will be filled with the violence of the insurgency helping to collapse the fledgling gov't that's gotten started there.  We leave to slowly, we only encourage the insurgency to keep hitting us where it hurts and destabilize the fledgeling Iraqi gov't which needs help, not hits.  Where is the damned middle ground in all of this?  There has to be something workable between the two parties to figure out how to safely and feasably extract our boys from Iraq without pulling the pillars of the country down on the people there as we exit.  Fleeing is not answer; staying is not answer.  What is then?

I agree.  We might want to leave.  We might actually need to leave.  But, we can't leave until we have some stability there.  Otherwise, it will be much worse.  The power vacuum would suck them into complete civil war.  We can't let the mistake of invading lead to genocide.  We just can't do that.

It is our mess, and unfortunately we can't roll back the clock and get a reset button.  We messed up and we're stuck cleaning up our own mess.

And G, I did not vote for Dems because they promised to cut and run.  I voted for oversight.  I voted to put the Congress back as one of the 3 branches of government.  Before you push "me" into a category, just ask and I'll tell you why I did something and why I didn't.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

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Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
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Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
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#15 Spectacles

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:00 PM

Quote

Cait: We might want to leave. We might actually need to leave. But, we can't leave until we have some stability there. Otherwise, it will be much worse. The power vacuum would suck them into complete civil war. We can't let the mistake of invading lead to genocide. We just can't do that.

I completely agree--in theory. Then I start looking at what's happening in Iraq and I wonder if there is any way to stop the bloodbath. I honestly don't know what we can do at this point.

There is already a power vacuum in Iraq. In the past several months, the Iraqi government has proven to be ineffective and incidental. The strongest, most motivated fighting forces in the country are the Shia militias, not the Iraqi Army or police--both of which, the police especially, have been infiltrated by Sunni insurgents and militia-affiliated Shiites.

McCain is probably right that our only hope of establishing basic security in the country is to send in more troops--many more. But as General Abizaid (sp) himself acknowledges, we don't have them.

Also as Abizaid himself acknowledges, Iraq is going to REALLY go to hell if things don't turn around in four to six months--as if right now isn't bad enough.

I suspect that what we'll do is try to pour in as many troops as we can spare in a last-ditch effort to stabilize Iraq. And I'm afraid that will just mean more lives lost for a losing cause. I just don't see how we can make the Shiites and the Sunnis cooperate and coexist. But I'm still hoping for a miracle and would be glad to see it.
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#16 enTranced

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:25 PM

View PostG1223, on Nov 16 2006, 04:43 PM, said:

Excuse me strawman? I took Durbins actual comments to mena lets pull out as quickly as possible. IT was how the press presented it.

Could you give us a actual translation of what he meant. OR am I not suppose to take them by what they actually say.

IS there Dummies Guide to Speaking Dmeocrat?

You missed my point.

I'm saying that instead of bellyaching about your latest and greatest grivence against Dems why don't you or another fine repub tell us all how to get out of the Iraq mess that YOUR team caused.

Me? I have no idea but then again myself and many others said this is EXACTLY what would happen if we invaded and I didn't voite for the b@st@rd anyway, both times.

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#17 enTranced

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:32 PM

View PostG1223, on Nov 16 2006, 05:02 PM, said:

Cait I am agreeing lets get out. Afterwards we can hear the demos say "Well if you had stayed we might have fixed it." You voted these guys in on the cut and run idea so lets give you want you want.

Sooo....

You agree we should get out but when we do you are going to blame the Dems for "cutting and running".

In other words : Damn those puppy hateing Dems! Damn them!

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Edited by enTranced, 16 November 2006 - 01:43 PM.

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#18 G1223

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:34 PM

View PostLost Cause, on Nov 16 2006, 12:11 PM, said:

I believe we need to withdraw from Iraq, but, if we leave too quickly, we leave a power vacuum that will be filled with the violence of the insurgency helping to collapse the fledgling gov't that's gotten started there.  We leave to slowly, we only encourage the insurgency to keep hitting us where it hurts and destabilize the fledgeling Iraqi gov't which needs help, not hits.  Where is the damned middle ground in all of this?  There has to be something workable between the two parties to figure out how to safely and feasably extract our boys from Iraq without pulling the pillars of the country down on the people there as we exit.  Fleeing is not answer; staying is not answer.  What is then?

No we need to flee otherwise the dems will be seen as going back on the campagn promise of getting us out of Iraq. No waiting we need to make it happen and soon so that Dick Durbin and others who opposed the war can have their full cup of retreat.
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#19 enTranced

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:41 PM

View PostCait, on Nov 16 2006, 05:27 PM, said:

I agree.  We might want to leave.  We might actually need to leave.  But, we can't leave until we have some stability there.  Otherwise, it will be much worse.  The power vacuum would suck them into complete civil war.  We can't let the mistake of invading lead to genocide.  We just can't do that.

It is our mess, and unfortunately we can't roll back the clock and get a reset button.  We messed up and we're stuck cleaning up our own mess.

And G, I did not vote for Dems because they promised to cut and run.  I voted for oversight.  I voted to put the Congress back as one of the 3 branches of government.  Before you push "me" into a category, just ask and I'll tell you why I did something and why I didn't.

Welcome to my world. I agree with everything you said. Dubyah screwed up in our name so I agree, we own this. The proper thing to do is fix it but as time goes on and more and more lives are lost I wonder if it CAN be fixed.

My head knows the reasons for staying, but my gut is saying get out, get out now and at least we will save the lives of our own. :(

I hate myself for tinking this because I know if we do, i just know Iraq goes down and they will go down hard and when they do that will be OUR fault.

But what is the alternative? Sending in more troops, even if we could, it probebly won't make much difference and will turn the nation we are supposidly saving into an even BIGGER warzone. Andif we don't send more troops then what will change six months from now? Why not simply start leaving right now?

I don't know the answers and I am not really asking anyone else. I'm just airing out my own frustration with this mess that never should have happened. :(

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Edited by enTranced, 16 November 2006 - 01:42 PM.

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#20 Zwolf

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:42 PM

I can see it's happening already: the "curse" part of the Dems winning Congress.  I'd read on Republican blogs as much as a year ago that some Republicans were hoping that the Dems would win in '06 so they'd have somebody to blame the Iraq war on.  Scapegoat them for Bush's mistakes and be in better shape in '08.

'Cuz, see, now, no matter what the Dems do, Republicans will claim this dead-born ill-planned fiasco foul-up of a war that's going to go lousy no matter what "would have turned out okay if..."

- if the Dems hasn't pulled out

- if the Dems hadn't stayed the course

- if the Dems hadn't done whatever-it-is-the-Dems-are-actually-gonna-do.

If there weren't soldiers' lives at stake, our financial future at risk, and our world standing to be concerned with, I'd reccommend "Operation Doormat" for the Dems and just rubber-stamp whatever Bush planned to do and let him own it.  Only that wouldn't work, either, 'cuz the critics would claim "the Dems should've opposed him!  It's their fault!" yadda-yadda-whateverthehellelseyawannaputinthere.

It's no wonder Rush Limbaugh feels liberated - not only does he not have to "carry water" (that's called "lying" if you or I do it) anymore, there's a way to trump up an "out" for a big ol' painted-in corner.

So, no matter what, that's one thing.

Pulling out completely and quickly isn't something I'd support.  I would say it would destabilize the region, but the region's already destabilized.  The Sunnis and the Shiites have quite the lil' Gaza Striptease goin', and that's not going to stop.   If we pulled out, they'd have to take care of things real quick, which eventually is what it's going to take, anyway - it'd be sink-or-swim time.  

But, we don't want 'em to sink.  We'd feel bad... and rightfully so.  So, that's not a very good option.  We could send more troops in, but a lot of what we'd be killing at this point wouldn't be terrorists - it'd be Iraqi citizens who think they need to fight us as some kind of "insurgency"... and more troops would make them feel more justified in feeling that way, and would mean trouble down the line.  And, even with more troops in, eventually they'd have to leave someday and Iraq would have to stand on its own two feet, and we're back at sink or swim... and, if they sank, we'd feel bad, etc.

What I'm thinking we should maybe try to do is pull out of the really bad areas and put our troops in some of the areas that aren't in total chaos, so we can maintain stability where stability is, and see what happens in the areas where stability isn't.  Maybe things will settle down without our influence.  We could watch and see.  If it just got worse and worse, we could always send the troops back in, kill everybody, or whatever needed doing.

Whatever the case may be, the guy who pushed the snowball off the top of the hill now gets to tee-hee and claim his hands are clean...

Cheers,

Zwolf
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