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U.S. commander decries Iraq Timetable

Iraq 2006 Time table Troop withdraw Criticism

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#21 Mark

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:44 PM

View PostZwolf, on Nov 16 2006, 12:42 PM, said:

I can see it's happening already: the "curse" part of the Dems winning Congress.  I'd read on Republican blogs as much as a year ago that some Republicans were hoping that the Dems would win in '06 so they'd have somebody to blame the Iraq war on.  Scapegoat them for Bush's mistakes and be in better shape in '08.

'Cuz, see, now, no matter what the Dems do, Republicans will claim this dead-born ill-planned fiasco foul-up of a war that's going to go lousy no matter what "would have turned out okay if..."

- if the Dems hasn't pulled out

- if the Dems hadn't stayed the course

- if the Dems hadn't done whatever-it-is-the-Dems-are-actually-gonna-do.

If there weren't soldiers' lives at stake, our financial future at risk, and our world standing to be concerned with, I'd reccommend "Operation Doormat" for the Dems and just rubber-stamp whatever Bush planned to do and let him own it.  Only that wouldn't work, either, 'cuz the critics would claim "the Dems should've opposed him!  It's their fault!" yadda-yadda-whateverthehellelseyawannaputinthere.

It's no wonder Rush Limbaugh feels liberated - not only does he not have to "carry water" (that's called "lying" if you or I do it) anymore, there's a way to trump up an "out" for a big ol' painted-in corner.

So, no matter what, that's one thing.

Pulling out completely and quickly isn't something I'd support.  I would say it would destabilize the region, but the region's already destabilized.  The Sunnis and the Shiites have quite the lil' Gaza Striptease goin', and that's not going to stop.   If we pulled out, they'd have to take care of things real quick, which eventually is what it's going to take, anyway - it'd be sink-or-swim time.  

But, we don't want 'em to sink.  We'd feel bad... and rightfully so.  So, that's not a very good option.  We could send more troops in, but a lot of what we'd be killing at this point wouldn't be terrorists - it'd be Iraqi citizens who think they need to fight us as some kind of "insurgency"... and more troops would make them feel more justified in feeling that way, and would mean trouble down the line.  And, even with more troops in, eventually they'd have to leave someday and Iraq would have to stand on its own two feet, and we're back at sink or swim... and, if they sank, we'd feel bad, etc.

What I'm thinking we should maybe try to do is pull out of the really bad areas and put our troops in some of the areas that aren't in total chaos, so we can maintain stability where stability is, and see what happens in the areas where stability isn't.  Maybe things will settle down without our influence.  We could watch and see.  If it just got worse and worse, we could always send the troops back in, kill everybody, or whatever needed doing.

Whatever the case may be, the guy who pushed the snowball off the top of the hill now gets to tee-hee and claim his hands are clean...

Cheers,

Zwolf

Mark:
Links please.   :cool:
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#22 enTranced

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:46 PM

View PostG1223, on Nov 16 2006, 06:34 PM, said:

No we need to flee otherwise the dems will be seen as going back on the campagn promise of getting us out of Iraq. No waiting we need to make it happen and soon so that Dick Durbin and others who opposed the war can have their full cup of retreat.

You seem to be under the impression this would be the first time the Invincible Glorious Mighty (insert any other favorite adjective here) United States has ever retreated.

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#23 G1223

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:47 PM

View PostenTranced, on Nov 16 2006, 01:25 PM, said:

You missed my point.

I'm saying that instead of bellyaching about your latest and greatest grivence against Dems why don't you or another fine repub tell us all how to get out of the Iraq mess that YOUR team caused.

Me? I have no idea but then again myself and many others said this is EXACTLY what would happen if we invaded and I didn't voite for the b@st@rd anyway, both times.

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The experts called for more troops but the screams were of No. You did not like the answer and you now have the other option leave.

Then why did you elect guys who's only answer is cut and run. If they actually had a plan why didn't they tell the us?
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#24 Godeskian

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:48 PM

There is no shame in retreating from a battle that cannot be won. To stay in a fight you can't win is just a good way to waste time, money, materials and lives.

However deciding to retreat from a battle doesn't necesarrily mean you need to stop trying to find a way to win it in a different fashion. Okay so pounding a new democracy into place in Iraq hasn't worked, so now we  have to start trying to figure out how do we make a proper democracy in a way that doesn't include military force.

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#25 G1223

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:48 PM

View PostenTranced, on Nov 16 2006, 01:46 PM, said:

View PostG1223, on Nov 16 2006, 06:34 PM, said:


No we need to flee otherwise the dems will be seen as going back on the campagn promise of getting us out of Iraq. No waiting we need to make it happen and soon so that Dick Durbin and others who opposed the war can have their full cup of retreat.

You seem to be under the impression this would be the first time the Invincible Glorious Mighty (insert any other favorite adjective here) United States has ever retreated.

enTranced

Yeah and that was under the great and wise DNC run congress of 1952-1994.  Things do run in trends with them.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
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paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#26 Mark

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:50 PM

View PostG1223, on Nov 16 2006, 12:47 PM, said:

View PostenTranced, on Nov 16 2006, 01:25 PM, said:




You missed my point.

I'm saying that instead of bellyaching about your latest and greatest grivence against Dems why don't you or another fine repub tell us all how to get out of the Iraq mess that YOUR team caused.

Me? I have no idea but then again myself and many others said this is EXACTLY what would happen if we invaded and I didn't voite for the b@st@rd anyway, both times.

enTranced

The experts called for more troops but the screams were of No. You did not like the answer and you now have the other option leave.

Then why did you elect guys who's only answer is cut and run. If they actually had a plan why didn't they tell the us?

Mark: Cause the Dems don't have a plan...they never have. All they can do is gripe and moan about what Repubs did badly in Iraq. I can't understand how Dems can gripe about what the Repubs have done, and not actually have a plan. And Dems, why would you vote for your own party when they don't even have a plan, or a clue?
Mark
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#27 G1223

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:57 PM

Because they did not say we have a plan but cannot tell you because if we did you would not vote for us.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#28 enTranced

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:57 PM

View PostG1223, on Nov 16 2006, 06:47 PM, said:

Then why did you elect guys who's only answer is cut and run. If they actually had a plan why didn't they tell the us?

*sigh*

I would put this in flashing neon if I could but I have to settle for bold :

At Least They HAVE a plan!!

I'm not saying it's the best plan. I'm saying that I'm satrting to feel it is the best of some really, REALLY bad options. If somebody across the fence has a better idea they should speak up.

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#29 Godeskian

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:59 PM

Well G, do you have a better plan? Any plan?

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#30 enTranced

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 02:00 PM

View PostMark, on Nov 16 2006, 06:50 PM, said:

And Dems, why would you vote for your own party when they don't even have a plan, or a clue?

Unlike Iraq that one is easy!

For whatever faults they may have, not even ONE of them had a R after his or her name on the ticket. ;)

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#31 G1223

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 02:00 PM

Which is? Cutting and running.  Not retreat but give up.  Not lets send in enough troops to settle the situation down and then work out a solution.

Then you jump on me for pointing out that the plan cutting and running.

You know this is why democrats are not great on nation defense.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#32 Mark

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 02:01 PM

View PostenTranced, on Nov 16 2006, 01:00 PM, said:

View PostMark, on Nov 16 2006, 06:50 PM, said:

And Dems, why would you vote for your own party when they don't even have a plan, or a clue?

Unlike Iraq that one is easy!

For whatever faults they may have, not even ONE of them had a R after his or her name on the ticket. ;)

enTranced


Mark: Logical...flawlessly logical....(raises eyebrow)
Mark
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Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to cope with it.
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#33 G1223

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 02:05 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Nov 16 2006, 01:59 PM, said:

Well G, do you have a better plan? Any plan?


The expert have said send in more troops. Why not do that first.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#34 G1223

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 02:08 PM

View PostMark, on Nov 16 2006, 02:01 PM, said:

View PostenTranced, on Nov 16 2006, 01:00 PM, said:

View PostMark, on Nov 16 2006, 06:50 PM, said:

And Dems, why would you vote for your own party when they don't even have a plan, or a clue?

Unlike Iraq that one is easy!

For whatever faults they may have, not even ONE of them had a R after his or her name on the ticket. ;)

enTranced


Mark: Logical...flawlessly logical....(raises eyebrow)

Mark you forgot :sarcasm:  and :rolleyes:
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#35 enTranced

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 02:12 PM

View PostMark, on Nov 16 2006, 07:01 PM, said:

Mark: Logical...flawlessly logical....(raises eyebrow)

Hey, you build a congress with the politicians you have....

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Edited by enTranced, 16 November 2006 - 02:12 PM.

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#36 Balderdash

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 02:14 PM

Amazing!  Republicans with their rubber stamp gave Bush everything he wanted to have his war and now that it's in a shambles they now demand that the Democrats have a plan when their own went so badly.

Democrats are working on it which is a lot better than frickin' "stay the course".

What is the Republican plan?  G?  Mark?

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#37 Zwolf

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 02:14 PM

Quote

Mark: Links please.

For my opinion?  

I'm not good enough at Yahoo searches to track down individual blog posts from a year ago.  Blogs are pretty disposable, like forum-posts, so it's hard to search them.

Still, you want some links, okay - here's one and here's another that talk about the possibility of scapegoating.

Now... if we're going to play that way, how 'bout you give us some links proving that the Democrats are planning to impeach Bush?  You mentioned that, but everything I've been hearing says the exact opposite.  Hell, find us some proof they're expanding their offices, too, while you're at it.

Cheers,

Zwolf
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#38 enTranced

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 02:14 PM

View PostG1223, on Nov 16 2006, 07:05 PM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Nov 16 2006, 01:59 PM, said:

Well G, do you have a better plan? Any plan?


The expert have said send in more troops. Why not do that first.

A what theater do we pull these troops out of to get them stuck inside Iraq with the other troops that we have already stuck there?

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#39 enTranced

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 02:15 PM

View PostBalderdash, on Nov 16 2006, 07:14 PM, said:

What is the Republican plan?  G?  Mark?

Scream "Stay the Course!" with your eyes wide shut?

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#40 Mark

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 02:17 PM

View PostZwolf, on Nov 16 2006, 01:14 PM, said:

Quote

Mark: Links please.

For my opinion?  

I'm not good enough at Yahoo searches to track down individual blog posts from a year ago.  Blogs are pretty disposable, like forum-posts, so it's hard to search them.

Still, you want some links, okay - here's one and here's another that talk about the possibility of scapegoating.

Now... if we're going to play that way, how 'bout you give us some links proving that the Democrats are planning to impeach Bush?  You mentioned that, but everything I've been hearing says the exact opposite.  Hell, find us some proof they're expanding their offices, too, while you're at it.

Cheers,

Zwolf

Mark:
I heard it all on television...last week's "Meet The Press", I believe it was.
Mark
Discussion is an exchange of knowledge: argument is an exchange of ignorance.
Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to cope with it.
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