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U.S. commander decries Iraq Timetable

Iraq 2006 Time table Troop withdraw Criticism

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#81 veganmom

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 02:33 PM

Washington Post

And may I say,
a) Whoo-hoo, I know how everyone does those links now! (THAT'S what that button was for...)
b) Next time I'll put in more descriptive, you know, descriptions...

Anyhow, it's the Washington Post article Scott was referencing.

Edited by veganmom, 17 November 2006 - 02:35 PM.


#82 SparkyCola

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 04:35 PM

What Scott said and veganmom amened.

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#83 Mark

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 06:08 PM

ScottEvil:

Quote

The bottom line: Bush came ostensibly to liberate Iraq and will, because of his almost complete ignorance of the facts on the ground, most likely end up wiping it off the map.

Mark: That's ignoring the fact the Iraqis themselves are responsible for a great deal of their own problems. I think stating that Bush is single-handedly going to "wipe Iraq off the map" is more blustery rhetoric.
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#84 Rhea

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 09:28 PM

View PostMark, on Nov 17 2006, 03:08 PM, said:

ScottEvil:

Quote

The bottom line: Bush came ostensibly to liberate Iraq and will, because of his almost complete ignorance of the facts on the ground, most likely end up wiping it off the map.

Mark: That's ignoring the fact the Iraqis themselves are responsible for a great deal of their own problems. I think stating that Bush is single-handedly going to "wipe Iraq off the map" is more blustery rhetoric.

That's sort of like saying rape is consensual sex. :eek4:
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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#85 Mark

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 09:59 PM

View PostRhea, on Nov 17 2006, 08:28 PM, said:

View PostMark, on Nov 17 2006, 03:08 PM, said:

ScottEvil:

Quote

The bottom line: Bush came ostensibly to liberate Iraq and will, because of his almost complete ignorance of the facts on the ground, most likely end up wiping it off the map.

Mark: That's ignoring the fact the Iraqis themselves are responsible for a great deal of their own problems. I think stating that Bush is single-handedly going to "wipe Iraq off the map" is more blustery rhetoric.

That's sort of like saying rape is consensual sex. :eek4:

Mark: Please... Iraq has had one of the most embattled histories in the whole world. They've been fighting over religious and other differences since long before the U.S. ever came into exsistence, and my guess is they'll continue to do so long after the U.S. has nothing more to do with them. We may have stirred the pot, but the kettle was already on the fire, and has been for centuries.
Mark
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#86 Rhea

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 11:13 PM

View PostMark, on Nov 17 2006, 06:59 PM, said:

View PostRhea, on Nov 17 2006, 08:28 PM, said:

View PostMark, on Nov 17 2006, 03:08 PM, said:

ScottEvil:

Quote

The bottom line: Bush came ostensibly to liberate Iraq and will, because of his almost complete ignorance of the facts on the ground, most likely end up wiping it off the map.

Mark: That's ignoring the fact the Iraqis themselves are responsible for a great deal of their own problems. I think stating that Bush is single-handedly going to "wipe Iraq off the map" is more blustery rhetoric.

That's sort of like saying rape is consensual sex. :eek4:

Mark: Please... Iraq has had one of the most embattled histories in the whole world. They've been fighting over religious and other differences since long before the U.S. ever came into exsistence, and my guess is they'll continue to do so long after the U.S. has nothing more to do with them. We may have stirred the pot, but the kettle was already on the fire, and has been for centuries.

That's like saying raping anyone who isn't a virgin is OK because they've had sex before. ;)

Yes, their history is troubled. But we caused the imbalance that set it all off.

Edited by Rhea, 17 November 2006 - 11:14 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#87 Mark

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 11:16 PM

Rhea:

Quote

That's like saying raping anyone who isn't a virgin is OK because they've had sex before.

Mark: No, that's like saying your analogy is a really bad one.
Mark
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#88 Rhea

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 12:23 PM

View PostMark, on Nov 17 2006, 08:16 PM, said:

Rhea:

Quote

That's like saying raping anyone who isn't a virgin is OK because they've had sex before.

Mark: No, that's like saying your analogy is a really bad one.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I believe the war in Iraq has created a disaster, and you obviously don't agree. It happens. ;)
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#89 Pallas

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 09:08 PM

Okay, I've got a whacky thought. Since the Democrats are now in power, might we consider this as a time for political renewal, you know, new policies, new attitudes, that sort of thing? Assuming that we are interested in stabilizing Iraq  and saving American lives, I suggest the Americans take this opportunity with a new government to ask for help. The US can withdraw--and to keep a power vaccuum from sucking the country into an abyss, ask (ASK! not demand) the UN for help. This could accomplish two things: it can serve as a means of peace offering to allies the US Administration has alienated by admitting that you messed up and superpower or no, you cannot act unilaterally and, as mentioned, give the US a chance to withdraw. There is a real opportunity to here to work multilaterally. There is a new Secretary-General coming in and there's a new government in the States.

You'd have to push the idea that stabilizing Iraq is in everybody's best interests (excluding terrorists, extremists and probably President Ahmadinejad, Hugo Chavez and et al. who get a big kick at watching the proud and mighty America on her knees) and that maintaing the US as a superpower is a good thing. For one thing, you could always push the economic standpoint--think of all the reconstruction projects in Iraq or even oil opportunities (this could sway China quickly)! Or political pragmatism--if Iraq truly falls, there will be another vaccuum in the Middle East (the other being Israel/Palestine)...the point is, the US needs international help and I think it should ask for it.
We can do noble acts without ruling the earth and sea--Aristotle

#90 Mark

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 09:12 PM

Mark: I'm not saying it's not a good idea for the U.S. to ask for the U.N.'s help...but I don't think we'll ask, and I don't think they'd help if we did ask.
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#91 tennyson

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 10:09 PM

Hasn't the US been asking for help for quite a while now and not been recieving it from such nations as India, France and Pakistan? and wasn't it the UN that withdraw their efforts in Iraq on thier own after the suicide bombing of thier headquarters?

Edited by tennyson, 18 November 2006 - 10:11 PM.

"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#92 Vapor Trails

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 10:26 PM

My take:

The Iraq situation is undoubtedly FUBAR. And you know what?

It's going to be a catch-22 all around, folks. :(

No matter what we do, the place is GOING to descend into an even deeper bloodbath than it is now. All those fools who are saying that civil war isn't occuring are talking out of their butts.

What do you call dozens of Iraqis dying EACH DAY  from attacks? Sunni and Shia going at each others' throats? Heck, I've even heard of some Sunni/Shia killing some of their own to start fights  between each sect-saying that "THE OTHER GROUP" was responsible.  :crazy:

Those in Bush's circles won't say it's a civil war, probably because of the kind of reaction they fear from the American public.

And this will be WORSE-MUCH WORSE than Vietnam. With Vietnam, you were fighting a country. With Iraq, you are fighting a religious ideology.

Just look at the world around you. How many countries have radical Islamists? Those who hate Western ideals with a savage passion? Remember the whole uproar over the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed?

The Pandora's Box is open. There is no closing it. George Bush was looking for some idiotic form of revenge for 9/11. He wanted to appease the American public, which was full of grief and fury.

And look where it got us. :(

Edited by Digital Man, 18 November 2006 - 10:35 PM.

Posted Image

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#93 Mark

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 10:29 PM

Mark: So do we wage war on the whole of Islam because enough of their population are actin' a fool?  :look:
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#94 Cait

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 10:31 PM

View PostDigital Man, on Nov 18 2006, 07:26 PM, said:

My take:

The Iraq situation is undobutedly FUBAR. And you know what?

It's going to be a catch-22 all around folks. :(

No matter what we do, the place is GOING to descend into an even deeper bloodbath than it is now. All those fools who are saying that civil war isn't occuring are talking out of their butts.

What do you call dozens of Iraqis dying EACH DAY  from attacks? Sunni and Shia going at each others' throats? Heck, I've even heard of some Sunni/Shia killing some of their own to start fights  between each sect-saying that "THE OTHER GROUP" was responsible.  :crazy:

Those in Bush's circles won't say it's a civil war, probably because of the kind of reaction they fear from the American public.

And this will be WORSE-MUCH WORSE than Vietnam. With Vietnam, you were fighting a country. With Iraq, you are fighting a religious ideology.

Just look at the world around you. How many countries have radical Islamists? Those who hate Western ideals with a savage passion? Remember the whole uproar over the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed?

The Panadora's Box is open. There is no closing it. George Bush was looking for some idiotic form of revenge for 9/11. He wanted to appease the American public, which was full of grief and fury.

And look where it got us. :(

AGREED!!!  100%!!!!

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#95 Vapor Trails

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 10:37 PM

Cait,

Well...except for my spelling mistakes.  :blush:

:p
Posted Image

Politicians are like bananas; they hang together, they're all yellow, and there's not a straight one among them.

"We're relevant for $ and a vote once every two years. Beyond that, we're completely irrelevant, except of course to consume, and preach the gospel according to [insert political demigod here]."--Cait

#96 Godeskian

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 10:41 PM

View PostMark, on Nov 19 2006, 03:29 AM, said:

Mark: So do we wage war on the whole of Islam because enough of their population are actin' a fool?  :look:

Can't be done. The problem with ideologies is that they don't have to be visible to the public at large, let alone to a military establishment. It is virtually impossible to wage war on 'islam' any more than it is possible to wage war against any idea with mere military might.

Edited by Godeskian, 18 November 2006 - 10:41 PM.

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#97 Vapor Trails

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 10:44 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Nov 18 2006, 10:41 PM, said:

View PostMark, on Nov 19 2006, 03:29 AM, said:

Mark: So do we wage war on the whole of Islam because enough of their population are actin' a fool?  :look:

Can't be done. The problem with ideologies is that they don't have to be visible to the public at large, let alone to a military establishment. It is virtually impossible to wage war on 'islam' any more than it is possible to wage war against any idea with mere military might.


I think Mark was being sarcastic, Gode.  :upside:
Posted Image

Politicians are like bananas; they hang together, they're all yellow, and there's not a straight one among them.

"We're relevant for $ and a vote once every two years. Beyond that, we're completely irrelevant, except of course to consume, and preach the gospel according to [insert political demigod here]."--Cait

#98 tennyson

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 10:48 PM

Quote

With Vietnam, you were fighting a country.

With Vietnam you were fighting an expansionist political ideology, Marxism as interpreted by leaders such as Mao and Ho Chi Minh. North Vietnam was directly supported with money and war material from both the Soviet Union and the PRC. They had next to no industrial capacity of thier own yet by 1968 the area around Hanoi had the densest, most sophisticated layered air defences on the planet including the latest Soviet fighters, surface to air missiles and radars.
They were constantly be resupplied with small arms, ammunition, mortors, even the latest in Soviet towed artillery. When the South fell in 1975 it was to geurilla raiders from the jungle, they had been all but eliminated in Tet, replaced by NVA regulars. It was overun by Soviet style armoured and mechanized units.
After absorbing the south the united Vietnam then invaded Laos and Cambodia and occupied them until withdrawling in the late 1980s.
In Iraq, the various forces don't have anything like superpower level support. Iran is funneling its money and people into thier own factions, and  Al-Queda has thier people, but it is not one single ideology uniting the fighters. The Sunni factions including the very secular former Ba'ath party members fight the Shia and thier own internal enemies and Al-Queda and the Shia do the same. The local leaders are using ethnic and religous tensions to further thier own power just like other countries like Iran are using it to gain influence. But these tensions aren't based on one simple single ideology or one simple kind of conflict. Islamic fundamentalism is a problem but it isn't a united problem with a single face or organization, and it is the job of world leaders to make sure that it doesn't gain that single voice.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#99 Mark

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 10:49 PM

View PostDigital Man, on Nov 18 2006, 09:44 PM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Nov 18 2006, 10:41 PM, said:

View PostMark, on Nov 19 2006, 03:29 AM, said:

Mark: So do we wage war on the whole of Islam because enough of their population are actin' a fool?  :look:

Can't be done. The problem with ideologies is that they don't have to be visible to the public at large, let alone to a military establishment. It is virtually impossible to wage war on 'islam' any more than it is possible to wage war against any idea with mere military might.


I think Mark was being sarcastic, Gode.  :upside:

Mark:  :rolleyes:  Who...little ol' me?
Mark
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#100 Godeskian

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 10:50 PM

View PostDigital Man, on Nov 19 2006, 03:44 AM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Nov 18 2006, 10:41 PM, said:

View PostMark, on Nov 19 2006, 03:29 AM, said:

Mark: So do we wage war on the whole of Islam because enough of their population are actin' a fool?  :look:

Can't be done. The problem with ideologies is that they don't have to be visible to the public at large, let alone to a military establishment. It is virtually impossible to wage war on 'islam' any more than it is possible to wage war against any idea with mere military might.


I think Mark was being sarcastic, Gode.  :upside:

Sorry it's 3:49 AM and I should have been in bed hours ago. I think my filters are are asleep somewhere in the back of my brain :)

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.




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