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Judge's Ruling

Smoking Homeowner's association Judge ruling 2006

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#1 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 10:00 AM

Judge Upholds Homeowners' Association Order

This is just another reason I will never live in an area where an HOA controls what I can and cannot do with property that I freakin' own.  While I believe that the SCOTUS ruling in Kelo v. City of New London has seriously eroded the rights of property owners, little chips like this one have been going on for years and will continue.  

I swear, I'm gonna move off into the country where I can put up my flagpole, have whatever mailbox I want, and smoke a pipe in my house (if Mel would let me) and tell others where to go and give specific directions!  

Crap like this infuriates me.  :ranting:

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#2 veganmom

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 10:07 AM

You know, I'm totally anti-smoking, and I would hate it if a neighbor smoked, BUT this really does go too far.

That neighbor that spent thousands trying to mitigate the smell...
And I imagine they must be PRETTY HEAVY smokers for it to permeate everything.

I can see if you were out on your patio, and the person on the patio next to you was smoknig and it was wafting in your direction. That would be annoying (but wouldn't a smoker, looking at where the smoke was drifting, put the cigarette out??)

It might have been better for the neighbors or home association to just buy them a bunch of air purifiers -- one per room -- and insist they use them. Seems a lot less intrusive.

#3 Broph

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 10:15 AM

View PostLost Cause, on Nov 17 2006, 03:00 PM, said:

This is just another reason I will never live in an area where an HOA controls what I can and cannot do with property that I freakin' own.

But what about the freedom of their neighbors?

#4 Zwolf

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 10:16 AM

Yep, I hate smoking, but I like civil liberties more, and if you're paying for a place, then you should be able to do what you want in it.

I'd support the rights of an apartment building to refuse to rent to smokers (smoking can damage and depreciate an apartment, after all), the same way they can have a "no pets" ordinance... but, they should have that up-front.  If a building decides to change their policy, anyone who was renting before the policy change should get a "grandfathered" exception.  If a building changes to "no pets," you shouldn't have to get rid of your cat or move, and if it changes to no smoking, you shouldn't have to quit or get out, since that wasn't the deal when you signed up.

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#5 BklnScott

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 10:29 AM

Quote

This is just another reason I will never live in an area where an HOA controls what I can and cannot do with property that I freakin' own.

What about what you can do with property you don't freakin own?  That's the issue here.  Who cares if these people smoke?  But why should their neighbors be forced to breathe it in?  

article said:

For five years the couple has smoked in their living room and that had neighbors fuming.

"At times, it smells like someone is sitting in the room with you, smoking. So yes, it's very heavy," said condo owner Christine Shedron.

The Sauves said they have tried to seal their unit. One tenant spent thousands of dollars trying to minimize the odor.

I'm in a similar boat.  And, just to be clear, I *am* a social smoker--but I rarely smoke in my apt, and when I do, I hang it out the window.

My neighbor, on the other hand, smokes in his *windowless* bathroom.  He uses the exhaust fan to pull the smoke out -- which deposits it right into *my* bathroom, because we share ducts.  

And not just tobacco smoke--Try getting up at 6AM to go to work and walking headlong into a wall of pot smoke, or--worse--cigar smoke.  It's disgusting, and it's not right.  

It's the same principle as loud music -- You should have the right to do what you want in your own space, but that right ends when it starts to encroach on my right to do the same in *my* space.  

It should be incumbent on the smokers to seal their condo so the smoke doesn't get out (just as they would have to sound-proof for loud music), not on the neighbors so the smoke doesn't get *in*.    

Isn't that logical?

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#6 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 11:04 AM

The thing that bothers me is that they changed the rules out from under these people who had been living there.  The rules were clearly changed to target these people, singling them out, and in turn it could be seen that they are trying to run them off.  

The problems with condos is that, by law, they are treated as owned property, just the same as my house with its .75 acres of land.  While they are owned property, that appreciate or depreciate, they are built like apartments, sharing power lines, venting, and etc.  I can, after having lived for several years in two apartment blds, appreciate the issue of smokers.  However, most condos have a balcony and I know they have windows.  There are ways to vent the smoke out of the room (like a fan pointing toward a window).  The judge took too heavy a hand in this case for two points:  1.)  There are ways to dissepate the smell out of the room and avoid irritating your neighbors, 2.) They were established tenents being specifically targeted by a new rule (lack of equitability).  That's where I have problems with this ruling.

Rose: [disgusted] Oh, look at what the cat dragged in: "The Oncoming Storm."

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#7 Pywacket

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 11:16 AM

View PostLost Cause, on Nov 17 2006, 08:04 AM, said:

The thing that bothers me is that they changed the rules out from under these people who had been living there.  The rules were clearly changed to target these people, singling them out, and in turn it could be seen that they are trying to run them off.  

The problems with condos is that, by law, they are treated as owned property, just the same as my house with its .75 acres of land.  While they are owned property, that appreciate or depreciate, they are built like apartments, sharing power lines, venting, and etc.  I can, after having lived for several years in two apartment blds, appreciate the issue of smokers.  However, most condos have a balcony and I know they have windows.  There are ways to vent the smoke out of the room (like a fan pointing toward a window).  The judge took too heavy a hand in this case for two points:  1.)  There are ways to dissepate the smell out of the room and avoid irritating your neighbors, 2.) They were established tenents being specifically targeted by a new rule (lack of equitability).  That's where I have problems with this ruling.
The article was pretty clear that the Homeowners association did it because they feared getting sued for the effects of second-hand smoke.

For the smoke to have permeated to the other units, they must have been very heavy smokers. I don't know what they did to mitigate that, but the article says they tried.

And Scott, I live below someone who smokes a lot and have been very lucky that the smell didn't drift down.  The only time it bothered me was when he was outside smoking on his balcony which was right above mine.  

Changing the rules after the fact doesn't seem right.  Especially since it is targeting this couple.  Are they the only smokers in the  complex?  Maybe they would have been better off suing for discrimination?

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#8 BklnScott

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 11:22 AM

View PostLost Cause, on Nov 17 2006, 11:04 AM, said:

The thing that bothers me is that they changed the rules out from under these people who had been living there.  The rules were clearly changed to target these people, singling them out, and in turn it could be seen that they are trying to run them off.

Maybe they're just trying to adequately address a problem that was brought to their attention via the actions of these people.  Does it have to be a vendetta just because the ruling affects them?

Quote

The problems with condos is that, by law, they are treated as owned property, just the same as my house with its .75 acres of land.

You *suck*.

Quote

However, most condos have a balcony

Did I mention that you suck???  (A balcony is my holy grail.  Or... one of them.)  

Quote

and I know they have windows.  There are ways to vent the smoke out of the room (like a fan pointing toward a window).  The judge took too heavy a hand in this case for two points:  1.)  There are ways to dissepate the smell out of the room and avoid irritating your neighbors, 2.) They were established tenents being specifically targeted by a new rule (lack of equitability).  That's where I have problems with this ruling.

Is it reasonable to assume that these people hadn't been asked long since to take the common-sense steps you (and others) have outlined in this thread?  Fans, air purifiers, etc?  

If those measures had been successful, clearly there would not have been a need to change the policy.

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#9 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 11:49 AM

View PostScottEVill, on Nov 17 2006, 10:22 AM, said:

Quote

The problems with condos is that, by law, they are treated as owned property, just the same as my house with its .75 acres of land.

You *suck*.

Oh well.  :D  Believe me, though, .75 acres isn't as big as it sounds.  Our house checks in around 990 sq ft.  We do have a garage and a shed as well.  They're not big, but they're there.

Quote

Quote

However, most condos have a balcony

Did I mention that you suck??? (A balcony is my holy grail. Or... one of them.)
Mel and I had a balcony on the 4th floor of our apt complex in Maryland when we lived up there.  The condo complex where I worked as a security guard a few years had balconies in all the condos.  I remember that because the HOA forbid people from hanging clothes out to dry over the rails.  :rolleyes:

Quote

Quote

and I know they have windows. There are ways to vent the smoke out of the room (like a fan pointing toward a window). The judge took too heavy a hand in this case for two points: 1.) There are ways to dissepate the smell out of the room and avoid irritating your neighbors, 2.) They were established tenents being specifically targeted by a new rule (lack of equitability). That's where I have problems with this ruling.

Is it reasonable to assume that these people hadn't been asked long since to take the common-sense steps you (and others) have outlined in this thread? Fans, air purifiers, etc?

If those measures had been successful, clearly there would not have been a need to change the policy.


It may not be that they're running them off; it may be that they are.  To the people this rule change has targeted, they may see it that way (as I am sure I would, if I were them).  But, the equitability of the rule change is something that I cannot get over.  



BTW, is there not something they could do to re-vamp and upgrade the ventilation system in a bldg like that?  I mean, isn't that what the HOA is about?

ETA: Remind me to tell you sometime a funny story about a songbird, a sliding glass door, and a cat.

Edited by Lost Cause, 17 November 2006 - 11:52 AM.

Rose: [disgusted] Oh, look at what the cat dragged in: "The Oncoming Storm."

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." -- John Wayne


Sometimes the best causes worth fighting for are lost causes. -- Me.

Formerly Known as "Lost Cause."


#10 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 02:58 PM

In this case since the smoke is leaking into other dwellings I'm on the side of the HOA.  Just on the ground that similar to loud music you should contain nuisances to your own property.  

View PostLost Cause, on Nov 17 2006, 10:00 AM, said:

While I believe that the SCOTUS ruling in Kelo v. City of New London has seriously eroded the rights of property owners, little chips like this one have been going on for years and will continue.
Well I'm hoping that we get one more conservative justice onto the Court so some of these attacks on the rights of property owners by the liberal justices can be reversed.
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#11 Kosh

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 03:48 PM

Quote

And not just tobacco smoke--Try getting up at 6AM to go to work and walking headlong into a wall of pot smoke, or--worse--cigar smoke. It's disgusting, and it's not right.

You both should have the right to do as you will if you rent the apt. I'd be on the Land lords Buttocks about the shard duct work. It should never be able to push anything back into your apt. If he's leaving a crap, you are going to get those odors as well.
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#12 Anastashia

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 06:57 PM

They always have the option of using this as an excuse to stop smoking.
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#13 Mark

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 07:02 PM

Lost Cause:  

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Remind me to tell you sometime a funny story about a songbird, a sliding glass door, and a cat.

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#14 Dev F

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 07:09 PM

I really don't see as how this is a civil liberties issue. Like the man says, the right to swing my fist ends where the other man's face begins. In the same way, the right to spread my smoke around ends where the other man's property begins.

#15 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 07:32 PM

Oh HELL NO!

HELL F**king NO!

There would be NO WAY I would stop smoking in my own home. NO WAY! Not going to happen. I don't care if Jesus Christ himself declared it. NO WAY!

If I own my own place, I will do what I damn well please in it.

And as for them saying the smell was a problem...the revenge side of me would show them just how unpleasant things could get. And what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I would be filing complaint after complaint about frivilous s**t against my neighbors. They want to go down that road, bet. Bring it!

Have to leave this thread and calm down before I start posting things that will violate the guidelines, and probably a few laws....
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#16 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 07:34 PM

View PostAnastashia, on Nov 17 2006, 06:57 PM, said:

They always have the option of using this as an excuse to stop smoking.

And they can also use this as an option to "Slip" when being forced to go outside to do what they should be allowed to do in their own freaking homes. And after "slipping" file a several million dollar lawsuit against everyone in the damn building.

Have to leave this thread, be back when I've clamed down.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#17 HubcapDave

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 07:47 PM

View PostKosh, on Nov 17 2006, 02:48 PM, said:

Quote

And not just tobacco smoke--Try getting up at 6AM to go to work and walking headlong into a wall of pot smoke, or--worse--cigar smoke. It's disgusting, and it's not right.

You both should have the right to do as you will if you rent the apt. I'd be on the Land lords Buttocks about the shard duct work. It should never be able to push anything back into your apt. If he's leaving a crap, you are going to get those odors as well.

That is true. Having done a little work in HVAC myself, it sounds like the duct is on the small side. Gases travelling through a duct don't go straight through, they tend to curl away towards the wall of the duct. Hance, when building a ventilation system for any particular place, you have to account for how much air you're going to have to move into, or out of, each room and use a duct that's the right size.

#18 Vapor Trails

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 07:57 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Nov 17 2006, 07:32 PM, said:

Oh HELL NO!

HELL F**king NO!

Have to leave this thread and calm down before I start posting things that will violate the guidelines, and probably a few laws....

..and before you sue someone out of house and home. :p~

:laugh-tears:   :lol:   :hehe:
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#19 Hibblette

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 07:59 PM

Most of ya'll know how I feel.

It's just more of the backdoor illegalizing of tobacco.

Why not just go for that?
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#20 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 08:08 PM

View PostDigital Man, on Nov 17 2006, 07:57 PM, said:

..and before you sue someone out of house and home. :p~

:laugh-tears:   :lol:   :hehe:

:eek4:  :eek4:  OMG!  :eek4:  :eek4:

DM's back! It's nice to see you again. Welcome back.
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The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson



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