Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

6 Muslims removed from flight for praying

Airline Removal of Muslims 2006 Praying Terrorism

  • Please log in to reply
159 replies to this topic

#141 Rhea

Rhea

  • Islander
  • 16,433 posts

Posted 26 November 2006 - 11:39 PM

View PostSpidey, on Nov 26 2006, 07:18 PM, said:

View PostRhea, on Nov 26 2006, 04:47 PM, said:

View PostSpidey, on Nov 26 2006, 03:18 PM, said:

View PostG1223, on Nov 25 2006, 08:16 AM, said:

Now Spidey why should they read what the holy men said. They have made up their minds that nothing should have been done and if these guys had done anything then it was the fault of security for not taking action.

You're so right.  I agree.

View PostRhea, on Nov 25 2006, 12:34 PM, said:

One of the things that I admire most about the British is that they've lived with terrorism far longer than we have, and instead of succumbing to paranoia they just get on with their lives.

Wish we could do the same.

I think that watchfulness is one thing, and it's important - but paranoia and mistrust and living in fear is another.

So, are you saying that we should just accept terrorism and not bother doing anything about it?  Sorry, that is the last thing I would want to see happen.  Terrorists need to learn fast that Americans aren't to be messed with.  That we refuse to accept it, and will fight them, and hit them harder every time, and that they can stick their IED's where the sun don't shine.  I would hate to see Americans give up and just let things be.  That's how freedoms are lost, when you just accept anything ane everything and just "move on" in your life going "oh well".


So let's see? Did you read anything I read before you reacted to it??  :wacko: If you want to get your message out, fine - but don't react to what I DID say and claim I said something I DIDN'T SAY.

I did read it.  I guess I misunderstood it.  Sorry.

No problem. :D
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#142 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 27 November 2006 - 02:52 PM

Hi Guys. My brother works in law enforcement over in the Twin Cities, and when we were visiting over Thanksgiving, he told me that, indeed, the whole situation was a set-up. They were praising Saddam on the plane and talking very loudly about the Patriot Act and generally trying to raise suspicions so they could get kicked off. It was a set-up from the start. It's already been reported that the keynote speaker at the convention was loudly complaining about American treatment of Muslims, and may have even encouraged attendees to try this sort of thing.

Don't feel sorry for those that got kicked off. They were attempting to test the system. They got the reaction they were hoping for.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#143 Kosh

Kosh

    Criag Ferguson For President!

  • Islander
  • 11,149 posts

Posted 27 November 2006 - 04:43 PM

View PostDrew, on Nov 27 2006, 02:52 PM, said:

Hi Guys. My brother works in law enforcement over in the Twin Cities, and when we were visiting over Thanksgiving, he told me that, indeed, the whole situation was a set-up. They were praising Saddam on the plane and talking very loudly about the Patriot Act and generally trying to raise suspicions so they could get kicked off. It was a set-up from the start. It's already been reported that the keynote speaker at the convention was loudly complaining about American treatment of Muslims, and may have even encouraged attendees to try this sort of thing.

Don't feel sorry for those that got kicked off. They were attempting to test the system. They got the reaction they were hoping for.



Sounds like a crime. I don't know what the charges would be exactly, but I'll bet there are some.
Can't Touch This!!

#144 Captain Jack

Captain Jack

    Where's the rum?

  • Islander
  • 14,914 posts

Posted 27 November 2006 - 05:51 PM

You know, several years ago I used to work in security.  One of my first duties was being a part of a museum security team.  You know, to deter theft or vandalism and such.  We were taught what sort of suspicious behavior to look for.  Praying wasn't one of them, neither was what skin color you were.  It was mostly behavior, and even what clothing a person wore.

Anyways, one day the museum had a new exhibit of some one who was considered a "controversial" artist.  By that, I don't know.  Her work was, in my point of view, weird.  In any case, this guy comes along, looking at all the stuff the place has (hers wasn't the only thing on display).  He was very calm at first by later accounts, until he saw what he was looking for.  He became more curious as to who was around him.  He waited in front of a piece for a while.  Me and this other guy got a call from the control room to check him out.  Why?  Because he was a suspicious character.  Why?  Because he seemed more concerned about who was around him than looking at art.  Well, I guess we got there when he had his back turned to us when he pulled the stantion rope off.  He did it nice an quiet, and slowly.  I don't know what he planned on doing, but we pulled him back from it just before he could touch it.  It took a total of three people to haul him to the control center.  He was livid.

From what I can remember, his excuse was the picture offended him.  Why, I don't know.  But it did.  He was p*ssed that he was humiliated in front of so many people, and so on and so fourth.

The thing is, what he did was subtle.  No chanting, no praying, no going postal before commiting his act.  He came in calm and cool, eventually found what he seemed to be looking for, and waiting around for the right moment to do something.  If it wasn't for some eyes watching, he probably would have destroyed the art he so disliked.

Granted, there's a difference between a piece of art, and human life, but my point I hope I'm making clear, and that is sometimes things are so subtle, to have to err on the side of caution.  He probably would have done nothing, but he didn't.
Posted Image
689 Reasons to Defeat Barack Obama in 2012:

https://www.national...at-barack-obama

#145 BklnScott

BklnScott

    FKA ScottEVill

  • Islander
  • 18,142 posts

Posted 27 November 2006 - 06:28 PM

What Spidey Said!  (Awesome post, dude.)

Quote

There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#146 Captain Jack

Captain Jack

    Where's the rum?

  • Islander
  • 14,914 posts

Posted 27 November 2006 - 06:33 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Nov 27 2006, 03:28 PM, said:

What Spidey Said!  (Awesome post, dude.)

Really?  Thanks.  :D :cool:
Posted Image
689 Reasons to Defeat Barack Obama in 2012:

https://www.national...at-barack-obama

#147 Rhea

Rhea

  • Islander
  • 16,433 posts

Posted 27 November 2006 - 07:11 PM

View PostDrew, on Nov 27 2006, 11:52 AM, said:

Hi Guys. My brother works in law enforcement over in the Twin Cities, and when we were visiting over Thanksgiving, he told me that, indeed, the whole situation was a set-up. They were praising Saddam on the plane and talking very loudly about the Patriot Act and generally trying to raise suspicions so they could get kicked off. It was a set-up from the start. It's already been reported that the keynote speaker at the convention was loudly complaining about American treatment of Muslims, and may have even encouraged attendees to try this sort of thing.

Don't feel sorry for those that got kicked off. They were attempting to test the system. They got the reaction they were hoping for.

Irrelevant. Black people tested the system too, during the civil rights era and they were entitled to. The sytem should work in an equitable fashion for all. No law says you can't test it. If I were a Muslim American I'm pretty damn sure I would want to challenge the system - and the prejudice - that accompanies that currently not-too-happy state.

Edited by Rhea, 27 November 2006 - 07:12 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#148 BklnScott

BklnScott

    FKA ScottEVill

  • Islander
  • 18,142 posts

Posted 27 November 2006 - 07:29 PM

View PostSpidey, on Nov 27 2006, 06:33 PM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on Nov 27 2006, 03:28 PM, said:

What Spidey Said!  (Awesome post, dude.)

Really?  Thanks.  :D :cool:

I'm not sure I agree with the implication of the last line, but everything else was gold.

Quote

There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#149 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 27 November 2006 - 09:00 PM

View PostRhea, on Nov 27 2006, 07:11 PM, said:

Irrelevant. Black people tested the system too, during the civil rights era and they were entitled to. The sytem should work in an equitable fashion for all. No law says you can't test it. If I were a Muslim American I'm pretty damn sure I would want to challenge the system - and the prejudice - that accompanies that currently not-too-happy state.

Sorry, it's not irrelevant. They did things specifically to get themselves kicked off the plane, and then complained about getting kicked off. There's a big difference between that and acting "normal" and getting kicked off. They were not just a bunch of guys praying, as has been reported.

It would be as if I came here and trolled the hell out of Ex Isle, and then whined and whined when I got banned. I might have grounds for whining if I didn't do anything wrong, but if I did things to specifically disrupt the board, I would have no basis for my complaints.

Same thing writ large. Think of that airplane as Ex Isle Airlines, and these six men as visitors from your favorite troll haven.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#150 Dev F

Dev F

    Straighten your pope hat!

  • Islander
  • 3,757 posts

Posted 28 November 2006 - 11:01 AM

View PostDrew, on Nov 27 2006, 08:00 PM, said:

Sorry, it's not irrelevant. They did things specifically to get themselves kicked off the plane, and then complained about getting kicked off.
I'd argue that it depends on what they did to get kicked off. If all they were doing was praying openly and expressing dislike for the current administration, those are things they ought to have a right to do, things that the authorities have no reason to consider threatening behavior, and I would see no meaningful difference between their actions and those of, say, a civil rights activist who protested segregation by trying to get hauled away from a lunch counter.

However, since it appears that they also engaged in legitimately suspicious behavior -- that they were in effect trying to get kicked off a plane for things one should get kicked off a plane for -- I don't think they have a leg to stand on.

#151 Rhea

Rhea

  • Islander
  • 16,433 posts

Posted 28 November 2006 - 11:04 AM

View PostDev F, on Nov 28 2006, 08:01 AM, said:

View PostDrew, on Nov 27 2006, 08:00 PM, said:

Sorry, it's not irrelevant. They did things specifically to get themselves kicked off the plane, and then complained about getting kicked off.
I'd argue that it depends on what they did to get kicked off. If all they were doing was praying openly and expressing dislike for the current administration, those are things they ought to have a right to do, things that the authorities have no reason to consider threatening behavior, and I would see no meaningful difference between their actions and those of, say, a civil rights activist who protested segregation by trying to get hauled away from a lunch counter.

However, since it appears that they also engaged in legitimately suspicious behavior -- that they were in effect trying to get kicked off a plane for things one should get kicked off a plane for -- I don't think they have a leg to stand on.

I'd love to know what the legitimately suspicious activity on the plane was. As far as I know, all they were accused of is changing seats, and people do that all the time on flights when there are unoccupied seats.

I'm really glad I'm not an American of Middle Eastern heritage living in this paranoid country at this moment in history. They have to prove themselves all the time, which is stupid. It wasn't Americans who perpetrated 9/11.

Edited by Rhea, 28 November 2006 - 11:17 AM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#152 Broph

Broph
  • Islander
  • 6,671 posts

Posted 28 November 2006 - 12:25 PM

View PostDrew, on Nov 28 2006, 02:00 AM, said:

Sorry, it's not irrelevant. They did things specifically to get themselves kicked off the plane, and then complained about getting kicked off.

What things did they do for a fact to get kicked off? What things did people think they did, but they didn't actually do?

Someone said that they requested to be seated separately. Not true - the airline they flew on had assigned seats. It's more likely that tickets were just bought at different times and people noticed that they weren't sitting together, rather than them asking to be seated separately.

They prayed in the airport. The flight was 3 hours late - there were probably a lot of people doing a lot of things that they wouldn't normally do in the airport.

"The mats weren't facing Mecca". How did those people know that? Were they just not facing East? The world is round; maybe these people had a compass and knew a more direct heading to face than just "East".

Something about a seat-belt extender that one, not all (IIRC), requested. Who knows why it was requested? I certainly don't and there's a 99% chance that it was a legitimate reason that is none of my business!

#153 Broph

Broph
  • Islander
  • 6,671 posts

Posted 28 November 2006 - 12:36 PM

View PostDrew, on Nov 27 2006, 07:52 PM, said:

My brother works in law enforcement over in the Twin Cities, and when we were visiting over Thanksgiving, he told me that, indeed, the whole situation was a set-up. They were praising Saddam on the plane and talking very loudly about the Patriot Act and generally trying to raise suspicions so they could get kicked off.

So he didn't actually see or hear any of this. He's still working on second or even third-hand reports of what happened.

#154 Timon

Timon
  • Islander
  • 170 posts

Posted 28 November 2006 - 12:49 PM

Specifically it was this that freaked out the airline employees;

http://www.washtimes...22902-7522r.htm

Quote

Passengers and flight attendants told law-enforcement officials the imams switched from their assigned seats to a pattern associated with the September 11 terrorist attacks and also found in probes of U.S. security since the attacks -- two in the front row first-class, two in the middle of the plane on the exit aisle and two in the rear of the cabin.

    "That would alarm me," said a federal air marshal who asked to remain anonymous. "They now control all of the entry and exit routes to the plane."

I'd of kicked their asses off and held them for interrogation. That's just stupid on their parts.

#155 Rhea

Rhea

  • Islander
  • 16,433 posts

Posted 28 November 2006 - 12:55 PM

View PostTimon, on Nov 28 2006, 09:49 AM, said:

Specifically it was this that freaked out the airline employees;

http://www.washtimes...22902-7522r.htm

Quote

Passengers and flight attendants told law-enforcement officials the imams switched from their assigned seats to a pattern associated with the September 11 terrorist attacks and also found in probes of U.S. security since the attacks -- two in the front row first-class, two in the middle of the plane on the exit aisle and two in the rear of the cabin.

    "That would alarm me," said a federal air marshal who asked to remain anonymous. "They now control all of the entry and exit routes to the plane."

I'd of kicked their asses off and held them for interrogation. That's just stupid on their parts.


Why? They're  Americans. If a bunch of Americans did the same thing THEY wouldn't be suspect or kicked off. They might be shooed out of first class.. :p The Imams are Americans.

I heard the same justifications for different behavior during the old civil rights days and the Viet Nam war protests.

Certainly, if a group of foreign nationals did the same thing, it might be cause for some concern and caution. But not when Americans who happen to be Muslims do it. It's a result of paranoia.

Edited by Rhea, 28 November 2006 - 12:56 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#156 Broph

Broph
  • Islander
  • 6,671 posts

Posted 28 November 2006 - 01:00 PM

I'd like to point out that a lot of the story that Timon linked to was created using sources like pilots who worked for completely differerent airlines and statements like "passengers and flight attendants said", even though they didn't seem to have any direct quotes from flight attendants.

Think about some things for a minute. It says that they changed seats, but that means that people had to have changed seats with them, right? And what 2 first-class passengers are going to give up their seats to 2 people who they think are acting "suspicious"?

The whole article is vague and is loaded with hearsay.

Edited by Broph, 28 November 2006 - 01:01 PM.


#157 Mel

Mel
  • Islander
  • 447 posts

Posted 28 November 2006 - 01:06 PM

View PostBroph, on Nov 28 2006, 12:00 PM, said:

I'd like to point out that a lot of the story that Timon linked to was created using sources like pilots who worked for completely differerent airlines and statements like "passengers and flight attendants said", even though they didn't seem to have any direct quotes from flight attendants.

Think about some things for a minute. It says that they changed seats, but that means that people had to have changed seats with them, right? And what 2 first-class passengers are going to give up their seats to 2 people who they think are acting "suspicious"?

The whole article is vague and is loaded with hearsay.
The reports may or may not be accurate, but if the plane isn't full then, no people didn't necessarily have to swap with them.  Although they would have had to already have seating on the exit aisles.  Those seats go fast--thanks to being the only seats on a plane with actual leg room.  I've never flown on a plane where those haven't been taken.  I have flown on planes with unfull first class seats before though.

Edited to add:  I posted and then read the article.  It is rather vague with a lot of unidentified quotes.  Right now the whole story boils down to one side saying one thing and another side saying something else.   To me it looks like they were trying to act suspicious to get kicked off and get media time and attention, but with the contradictory information we're getting it's hard to know for sure.

Edited by Mel, 28 November 2006 - 01:13 PM.


#158 Broph

Broph
  • Islander
  • 6,671 posts

Posted 28 November 2006 - 02:05 PM

View PostMel, on Nov 28 2006, 06:06 PM, said:

The reports may or may not be accurate, but if the plane isn't full then, no people didn't necessarily have to swap with them.

The report specifically stated that there were no available seats in first class.

Quote

To me it looks like they were trying to act suspicious to get kicked off and get media time and attention, but with the contradictory information we're getting it's hard to know for sure.

It's definitely hard to know for sure - none of us was actually there to see anything.

#159 Heropa

Heropa

    Phantom of the Obtuse - Pubic Defender

  • Islander
  • 474 posts

Posted 10 December 2006 - 04:31 PM

View PostRhea, on Nov 27 2006, 07:11 PM, said:

View PostDrew, on Nov 27 2006, 11:52 AM, said:

Don't feel sorry for those that got kicked off. They were attempting to test the system. They got the reaction they were hoping for.

Irrelevant. Black people tested the system too, during the civil rights era and they were entitled to. The system should work in an equitable fashion for all. No law says you can't test it. If I were a Muslim American I'm pretty damn sure I would want to challenge the system - and the prejudice - that accompanies that currently not-too-happy state.

I am SO tired of people using an incomplete portrayal of the civil rights movement to defend terrorist sympathizers. There's a world of difference between standing up for your rights and sticking out just to get a REACTION.

In the American civil rights protests Black people (and White, and Chinese in some cities) got arrested and assaulted for "testing the system". This was because of a policy of victimization. Back of the bus, rip offs, unbalanced segregation, uneven law enforcement, lynchings... And then getting attacked for not playing along. We don't have a policy of oppression against Muslims for anyone to be fighting. Missing your flight for acting stupid is kit gloves. Sure, the airline APE-o-LIE-guised. Did you notice they gave them their money back and waved off? Might as well have flipped them off and said, "Have a nice day."

Edited by Heropa, 10 December 2006 - 04:37 PM.

Your Heropa.
Here for something- there you go.

If you can't say anything nice, be accurate.

#160 Mark

Mark
  • Islander
  • 5,269 posts

Posted 20 December 2006 - 01:04 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Nov 22 2006, 11:03 AM, said:

Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15824096/

Alright, my position definately isn't going to be Politically Correct, but I can't blame the airline here...or the other passengers who got nervous. If I was getting on a plane, and I saw some muslims getting on the same flight, all of a sudden, start getting down on their knees and praying, I would get nervous. And I would have probably told the flight attendant, either they get on a different flight, or I do...you choose.

And as for "cultural sensitivity"...these muslims have to realize that works both ways. Especially after 9-11.

Mark: Perhaps these men got what they were praying for.  ;)
Mark
Discussion is an exchange of knowledge: argument is an exchange of ignorance.
Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to cope with it.
APOGEE MESSAGE BOARD



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Airline, Removal of Muslims, 2006, Praying, Terrorism

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users