100 replies to this topic

[MuseZack]

Drew, on Dec 11 2006, 08:43 PM, said:

Of course, you can have progress without having pollution. But there is a mindset at work that believes all progress is necessarily anti-environment. This is patently untrue.

There's a neo-romantic philosophy at work in our educational system that seems aimed at turning us all back into nomadic hunter-gatherers. It is, in fact, anti-civilization (and as such, anti-human).

To be brief: don't buy into the anti-human nonsense. Yes, we may have the tendency towards base acts of selfishness, but we are also capable of grand acts of kindness and charity. Lift up the latter, disavow the former. Do not see the devil in the eyes of your neighbor . . . see the angel waiting to be born. Stick to the golden rule. Treat others as you wish to be treated. You may not be able to transform the whole world yourself, but you can work to transform those around you.

That's all pretty high-falutin' hippie-talk I suppose. So to put it another way, don't be part of the problem; be part of the solution.

(standing ovation)

I agree with every word of that.  While the inventiveness of human cruelty and sadism can often be disheartening, so can our species' capacity for compassion and kindness.  And it's not like good old nature, red in tooth and claw, is all about Kumbayah.  Anyone who's seen a mother dog eat her own puppies for no discernible reason or observed a cat toss around a wounded mouse or bird for fun knows that the natural world can be a cruel and unforgiving place.

And I'm I die-hard, tree-hugging (literally!  The photos are out there) environmentalist, who believes that humanity with all of its flaws is the key to preserving the natural world through careful stewardship of natural ecosystems.  To paraphrase Bill Clinton, there's nothing that's wrong with humanity that can't be solved by what's right with humanity.

Edited by MuseZack, 11 December 2006 - 03:54 PM.

[The Tyrant]

^Question is, can it be done before we've soiled the nest beyond viability?

Sorry, I tend to be a pessimist about the human race...for every good act, there's a hundred bad ones, and I am not enough of a saint to not be worn down by the incessant nastiness. I've frequently said that if there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, the worst insult in their language is to be called a human being.

[Drew]

Thanks, Zack. . .  and yeah . . .

MuseZack, on Dec 11 2006, 02:50 PM, said:

And it's not like good old nature, red in tooth and claw, is all about Kumbayah.  Anyone who's seen a mother dog eat her own puppies for no discernible reason or observed a cat toss around a wounded mouse or bird for fun knows that the natural world can be a cruel and unforgiving place.

. . . exactly. Guys, you don't really want to be part of that system unless you really want to fight tooth and nail with each other over tiny scraps of food. I never really considered myself a humanist, but if the only other option is social Darwinism, count me as one.

[SparkyCola]

I agree that bad and good acts sorta balance out to a blurry neutral ground. But it's not the extremes that bother me.

It's the ones of us who do nothing. Live our lives, go to work everyday in a job we hate then come home too tired to play with the kids. Go to sleep. Get up. Go to work....as if that's acceptable. It's not acceptable to do nothing while there is SOOOO much work to be done improving the world. and it would take a huge shove to get enough people doing their BEST instead of mediocre for once, aiming for perfection instead of aiming for nothing or just 'standard'  - caring about others enough to stop watching other people do something on tv but to do something for ourselves - one person can only do so much - yes, one person makes a difference, but not ENOUGH of a difference, that much is obvious.

If something could happen to get us ALL to try and aim for something BETTER, something which is FAIR - maybe then we could really start achieving something on a global scale. But yeah, there are great people and their are nasty people- it's the ones in between I'm talking about.

I don't know if I'm making sense, you lot probably just think i'm a miserable so-and-so who doesn't appreciate life (which isn't true), I just don't think we have the right perspective on things. Like, our lives are all that matter, forgetting that this is one chance and we're gonna be born, live, and die, and we should make the most of it.

Sparky

[SparkyCola]

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And it's not like good old nature, red in tooth and claw, is all about Kumbayah. Anyone who's seen a mother dog eat her own puppies for no discernible reason or observed a cat toss around a wounded mouse or bird for fun knows that the natural world can be a cruel and unforgiving place.

Maybe - but again, it's not the extremes. It's the average. And on average nature can be in it's simplest humblest form and still be breath-taking. Be it a crisp red leaf against a blue sky, or the ripples on a puddle. If it's the wind picking leaves and swirling them round you or just the raw energy of a storm - yeah, if you're late or you've got on a new suit or whatever, there's a high chance you'll miss them, but they are there, and they are beautiful. And that's despite humans so kindly planting the trees in concrete and building skyscrapers to knock out the horizon and stand as a monument to ugliness.

You lot probably think I'm nuts now.

Oh well.

Sparky

[Vapor Trails]

Drew, on Dec 11 2006, 03:43 PM, said:

Yes, we may have the tendency towards base acts of selfishness, but we are also capable of grand acts of kindness and charity. Lift up the latter, disavow the former. Do not see the devil in the eyes of your neighbor . . . see the angel waiting to be born. Stick to the golden rule. Treat others as you wish to be treated. You may not be able to transform the whole world yourself, but you can work to transform those around you.

These are laudable statements. But...(and you just knew that was coming )

Lift up the latter, disavow the former? Well-you still live on the same planet with the former. "The former" may be another country, a neighbor, a boss, a co-worker-and in some instances, you just can't pick up your things and go. And that "former" may have an intransigent personality. What do you do then? Like it or not-you'll have to deal with this person/group.

"You may not be able to transform the whole world yourself, but you can work to transform those around you."

I agree with this-but unfortunately, that will never be enough, if we want humanity to truly grow. And by that, I mean UNIFORMLY GROW-EVERY SINGLE HUMAN.

I'm going to repeat this yet again...

If we are talking about treating each other with respect, trying to understand one another and help one another progress through life-this can only work if we do this on a worldwide scale, across the board. Improvements "here and there" aren't enough.

That's terribly frustrating. And it's also a hard, cold FACT.

[Bad Wolf]

Here's the thing.  I am human.  I cannot take a class in Transfiguration at Hogwart's School of Magic and transform myself into a housecat so there's really zero point in worrying about it.  So I'm left with the fact that I am human.  Shame takes energy.  It is also rooted in a failure to accept oneself.  It's also a negative emotion.  As a human being I have a finite amount of earthly energy.  It is inefficient and illogical to waste my time with shame about who I am because who I am IS who I am.  It makes a lot more sense for me to use that finite energy to give my best effort to being the *best* me I can be.  And that can look like whatever I choose so long as I approach it with that motive.

Lil

[SparkyCola]

It also takes energy to be fiercely proud of something. Better to recognise what's important in life and go for it, rather than just sit back and let it happen.

Just because I'm not proud of humanity doesn't mean I'm a 'negative' person, and it doesn't mean I expound all my energy being miserable and hating life

Sparky

Edited by SparkyCola, 11 December 2006 - 06:44 PM.

[Vapor Trails]

Una Salus Lillius, on Dec 11 2006, 06:38 PM, said:

Here's the thing.  I am human.  I cannot take a class in Transfiguration at Hogwart's School of Magic and transform myself into a housecat so there's really zero point in worrying about it.  So I'm left with the fact that I am human.  Shame takes energy.  It is also rooted in a failure to accept oneself.  It's also a negative emotion.  As a human being I have a finite amount of earthly energy.  It is inefficient and illogical to waste my time with shame about who I am because who I am IS who I am.  It makes a lot more sense for me to use that finite energy to give my best effort to being the *best* me I can be.  And that can look like whatever I choose so long as I approach it with that motive.

Lil

Hey counselor!

Firstly-



Secondly...

I must note that this is the same Lil who has said on a number of occasions: "The way I feel is the way I feel." And there is also the other Lillianism: "Do NOT tell me how to feel. If I'm angry, I'm going to STAY angry as long as I need to, and you're just gonna hafta DEAL with that."

Any objections to these facts, counselor?

Thirdly...

What was that old cliche about "No man being an island"?

I think it's a natural thing to feel a sense of shame when we see our bretheren do something idiotic. When terrorists attack skyscrapers, when bigots drag gay folks behind pickup trucks and lynch African Americans, when people recklessly damage natural environments, causing the extinction of plant and animal life, it does bring about rage. And for me, it also does bring a sense of shame. But-the way I feel is the way I feel. That shame isn't necessarily a bad thing. It may be a driving force that makes you even more determined to do something constructive as a human being.

[Bad Wolf]

Digital Man, on Dec 11 2006, 04:00 PM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Dec 11 2006, 06:38 PM, said:

Here's the thing.  I am human.  I cannot take a class in Transfiguration at Hogwart's School of Magic and transform myself into a housecat so there's really zero point in worrying about it.  So I'm left with the fact that I am human.  Shame takes energy.  It is also rooted in a failure to accept oneself.  It's also a negative emotion.  As a human being I have a finite amount of earthly energy.  It is inefficient and illogical to waste my time with shame about who I am because who I am IS who I am.  It makes a lot more sense for me to use that finite energy to give my best effort to being the *best* me I can be.  And that can look like whatever I choose so long as I approach it with that motive.

Lil

Hey counselor!
Firstly-



Secondly...

I must note that this is the same Lil who has said on a number of occasions: "The way I feel is the way I feel." And there is also the other Lillianism: "Do NOT tell me how to feel. If I'm angry, I'm going to STAY angry as long as I need to, and you're just gonna hafta DEAL with that."

Yup I have said those things.  But in case you hadn't noticed, I'm slightly different today than I was when saying those kinds of things around here was a regular event.

However, I would also argue that those things are not inconsistent with my post above because I'm not telling anyone how *they* should feel, I'm explaining how *I* feel, which IS the way I feel, so DEAL with it.  

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Thirdly...

What was that old cliche about "No man being an island"?

Couldn't agree with you more but I disagree with your application of it.  The fact that I cannot go through this life in a vaccuum doesn't mean that everything everyone does is on me.  Just a few examples:  Dubbaya's actions usually astound me in their idiocy.  But I'm not ashamed to be an American just because some Americans who aren't me voted for him, twice.  I didn't vote for him so his actions are not on me.  Which does not mean I can't do my part to be part of the solution, it just means that his actions don't reflect on me.   Hell, I'd probably argue that his actions don't reflect on those who voted for him either because I'm sure many of those people had the courage of their convictions and didn't know how things were going to turn out.

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I think it's a natural thing to feel a sense of shame when we see our bretheren do something idiotic. When terrorists attack skyscrapers, when bigots drag gay folks behind pickup trucks and lynch African Americans, when people recklessly damage natural environments, causing the extinction of plant and animal life, it does bring about rage. And for me, it also does bring a sense of shame. But-the way I feel is the way I feel. That shame isn't necessarily a bad thing. It may be a driving force that makes you even more determined to do something constructive as a human being.

Well you feel however you feel right?  But yeah, history is full of examples of how dark human nature can be.  You don't have to even think about modern terrorism.  Go back as far as you can and you'll find it.  But although those kinds of things get more attention in history (not to mention the media today), they aren't (in my view of course) what makes the world go 'round.  What makes the world go 'round is the millions of people who get up each day, do their thing, care for those they need to care for, show up for work and do their best.  They are the people who don't honk in traffic, the people who don't kill other people, or beat or rape their partners or children, or steal from their employers, AND I defy you to tell me that *those* people, are not vastly more numerous than the ones who get all the press because they do horrible things.

I choose to identify with the latter group of people rather than the Dubbaya's and Hussein's of this world or those behind the Iquisition or the Reign of Terror or the pogroms in Russia or the Nazi Final Solution.  Doesn't mean I think the world is perfect or that I or anyone else is perfect. Nor does it mean I don't want to avoid or alleviate the problems caused by those I don't identify with.  It just means that the existence of a dark side of human nature is not, for me, a reason to be ashamed to be human.  

Lil

[Mark]

Mark: Standing ovation for Drew, Zack, and Lil!!

[Hibblette]

The question is "What's the Alternative."

That's why I say I am not a lamb nor a lion.

And no we are never going to all come together in one mindset...

Thank goodness.

There has to be ... the fly in the ointment.

There has to be the kid that says "the Emperor has no clothes on."

To me when Humanity goes awry is when we get this dictatorial sentiment going around.  Follow me...I just reallllly know the way.

And then you have those minions that say don't question the leader...don't call him an idiot...

[SparkyCola]

I don't think you're really listening to my point Lil, tbh. The point is that it's not about the extreme bad people or the extreme good people - it's about the everyday people. You're right, they don't do anything VERY bad. But they also don't do anything VERY good. They do nothing. They - we - let these extreme bad things go on and do nothing, and for me that makes us 'accomplices', as it were. What's the old expression about the man who does nothing being about an evil?

Like I say - it's just my point of view, and I don't hate other people or anything of the sort in my everyday affairs, and I'm not a miserable moping sort of person, so that can't be the reason I take this point of view.

Sparky

[Kosh]

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Of course, you can have progress without having pollution. But there is a mindset at work that believes all progress is necessarily anti-environment. This is patently untrue.

I've been working around or in the environmental agency for 20 years, this year, and I have yet to see a company that will do every thing the way the rule reads. To the last company, they fight to get out of anything they can.  Ever when it looks like it would be cheaper for them to go on and do it right the first time, they will still try to get around the regs. Coal is the worst, but they all do it.

Just from what the Air people have told me, Toyota seems to do the best job in West Virginia.

[Bad Wolf]

SparkyCola, on Dec 12 2006, 04:40 AM, said:

You're right, they don't do anything VERY bad. But they also don't do anything VERY good.

Such as what?  They feed their kids, they keep a roof over their heads, they obey laws.  What "very good" thing is required before a human being is worthy of pride, or at least, not something to be ashamed of?

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They do nothing.

This is a vast generalization.  Who is "they"?

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They - we - let these extreme bad things go on and do nothing, and for me that makes us 'accomplices', as it were. What's the old expression about the man who does nothing being about an evil?

So if a man in Pennsylvania murders someone and I personally didn't stop it I'm an accomplice?  Or if there is starvation in India and I do not personally stop it I'm an accomplice?  The problem with what you're saying is the assumption (and imo a very unrealistic one) is that you, I or most people actually have control over these things.  I might as well walk to the beach and tell the ocean to stop.

Does this mean I should not help where I can?  Of course not.  But the existence of misery in this world does not make me the cause or even a partial cause of that misery.  And it certainly does not make me ashamed to be human.

Lil

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 12 December 2006 - 01:57 PM.

[Vapor Trails]

Hibblette writes:

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And no we are never going to all come together in one mindset...

Thank goodness.

In some things, I think we absolutely have to.

Such as...

Respect for different races
Making sure poor folks get access to adequate food and care
Respect for women
Respect for gays and lesbians


...and I'm sure I could come up with more examples, if I had time.

Edited by Digital Man, 15 December 2006 - 11:19 AM.

[Hibblette]

Digital Man, on Dec 15 2006, 10:18 AM, said:

Hibblette writes:

Quote

And no we are never going to all come together in one mindset...

Thank goodness.

In some things, I think we absolutely have to.

Such as...

Respect for different races
Making sure poor folks get access to adequate food and care
Respect for women
Respect for gays and lesbians


...and I'm sure I could come up with more examples, if I had time.

In other words this is something that should be...forced?

Or just inherent?

Not to get into a Religious debate but...beings I am a person who believes that Humans are those who can choose on being good or evil the above list that you have there Digital Man is great but...that means no one has a right to think for themselves and believe what they want to.

As you said to me earlier nice sentiment.

Besides were is it written that life is a rose garden?

It's not.  A lot of it has to do with how all of us think and act differently in many, many, many different ways.

It's not easy.  And in many respects perhaps my mindset makes it less easy but as far as that goes your mindset also helps to contribute to the strife that exists in this world and the ugly side of humans.

I agree with your list above but there are actually those that might not agree with you.  So what do we do about those folks?

Shoot 'em now or wait till we get them home, Elmer?  

[Vapor Trails]

This will be a rapid-fire response-REALLY busy, and I'm heading out to work fairly soon.

Hibblete writes:

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...the above list that you have there Digital Man is great but...that means no one has a right to think for themselves and believe what they want to.

Thinking for yourself is one thing. But when your beliefs start to encroach on the way others live their lives-like the Taliban cracking down on woman's rights, or young women in certain African societies forced to have a circumcision-that's where problems occur.

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Besides were is it written that life is a rose garden?

Who here is saying that it is?

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As you said to me earlier nice sentiment.

What sentiment?? What are you talking about?? I'm only indicating things have have been causing a TREMENDOUS amount of strife that need to be worked on-and that can ONLY be worked on if folks make an effort. And that isn't likely to happen.

Gotta run. More later.

[Hibblette]

People make efforts at these things everyday.

I do.

I believe that Lil, Zack, Drew, Mark and yes even you do.

In fact everyone on this thread and I'll go as far as saying everyone on this board.  That's why a lot of us come here.

And then there's people out there that don't come to the internet even that make these type of efforts.  But not everyone is going to be in accord with us.  It's just one of those things.  The choices you make in life and the culture and education you have.  

To sit back and just say I hate being human (ah the title of the thread) and to say well people allllllllllll coming together ain't going to happen so therefore I really hate being human because of this is ... I think the equivalent of when I was a child and said I ain't making my bed because I'm just going to sleep in it later, what's the use.

We do the best we can and we actually do it as individuals.  I don't do it because you're saying to do it...I do it because I choose to do it.

In regards to the whole mutilation of women, it is appalling...I abhor it, but I don't think we should go to war over it.  Perhaps through education it will change-in time...there's lots of attitudes in this world that have changed with time.  So that's possible but it's not necessarily because of a borglike collectiveness happening.

It's just something that happens.  To tell you the truth, I would rather it happen with each individual making the conscious decision of deciding what is right and wrong then to do it because of some mandate or law.  Because ... it really won't stop the attitude or the crime.

See I'm of the opinion that we should all respect our parents.  Yes, I know there are parents out there that aren't all that great.  But these are the people who gave you life.

But wait a minute what about a parent that deliberatly burns a child or uses them for their own fame and glory...see I just can't bring myself to say that child still needs to respect that parent.

There's age ol' things going on with that whole domination of women and in some places we have overcome it but in others we're still working on it.  Maybe someday.

But I'm still not going to lose sleep over the fact that someone out there doesn't see it like I do.

And if you do force people to respect women or gays and lesbians or even the old...that's only on the surface because of the fear of whatever retribution you put out there.  It doesn't mean they really believe that way.

Just as an example some of the ills of this world have come from well meaning "new" Christians of the past.  Who wanted everyone to share in their enlightenment to the way of Christ and so there were a lot of laws and rules that were mandated and there were a lot of people who suffered due to this.

So...again do we force?  Do we start cracking heads together?  Do we just stop trying?

[White Tiger]

Personally I hope the human race either grows in responsibility soon....or wholely becomes extinct...
All I can do is sit back and wait for our greed to catch up and finally do each of us in.
I have struggled and taught my students we must respect our world and the creatures that co-inhabit it with us...yet I cannot alter anything worth while...All I can hope for is to witness the end and accept it as one of the criminals of nature.

Edited by White Tiger, 15 December 2006 - 06:57 PM.