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Prison Making Him Crazy

Olympics bomber Eric Rudolph Prison Hardships 2006 Crime Terrorism

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#21 GiGi

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 02:18 AM

View PostKalistria, on Dec 11 2006, 10:16 PM, said:

I said nothing of the sort.

Treating people inhumanely speaks more about the society who does it than the people who are in jail. Your own Bill of Rights prohibited cruel and unusual punishment and forcing people to go through withdrawls (if that is indeed the case, which we don't know it actually is) certainly qualifies. As does keeping people in total isolation, which is known to cause psychological damage. People literally do go crazy from being alone too long.

If the point of prison is to punish people for doing the crime, then fine. Punish people who did the crime, keep them in jail until they die but there is no need to be cruel and vicious about doing so. If penalizing criminals was just all about torturing them, then why don't you just go ahead and torture them to death? It's what countries who don't give a wit about due process of law or a fair judiciary do when people inconvenience them. Remove them permanently. Considering how the United States derides countries who arbitrarily do such things, I think this would be a hard position to justify in torturing prisoners either directly or indirectly.

Incidentally, if any of you seriously think that this is a good alternative, then in future arguments regarding the human rights violations and lack of due process of other countries, please consider your own attitudes towards people who are in prison but may or may not necessarily be a criminal (no law system is perfect; there is no way in hell that anyone can automatically determine everyone in jail is guilty. I'm generalizing here; not specific to the guy mentioned in this thread who is guilty)
Well said Kalistria.  You said what I was thinking, only so much better than I could have.  Thank you.
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#22 SparkyCola

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 07:35 AM

I agree with Kalistria - but I want to know if/what human rights violations are taking place here - otherwise, like I say, it's pretty meaningless.

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#23 Zwolf

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 09:04 AM

There's one little fact that Rudolph the Fanatical Reindeer is overlooking: he was already completely crazy when he got in there.  Confinement makes him crazy the way rain on the surface of the ocean makes the Titanic wet.   It may pile on a little bit, but, ehhhhhh, it's just the snowcap on a very large mountain.

And if he's lookin' for sympathy... bwa-hahahahahahaaaaaaaaa!  I wish him all that and a really bad rash.

Cheers,

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#24 The Oncoming Storm

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 09:54 AM

I guess what bothers me about all the commentary that SuperMax is bad, evil, inhuman, etc, is that SuperMax isn't the only kind of prison there is.  

Eric Rudolph landed in SuperMax because should he ever get an opportunity to move about freely in this world he is more than this world could handle.  How long did it take the Feds to find this guy?  Wasn't he living ala Theodore Kazynski [sp?] in the mountains of NC where damned few could find him?  They keep him so damned restricted (and they reserve that kind of prison for only a select few) is that if ever got wiggle room, a few select items, and combined them with all the boredom time he's got, he'd make a break for it.  I guarantee you this guy's creative; any criminal genius of his caliber who could live like a mountain man is a danger 'cause he'd outhink you at ever step.  This guy is the living definition of "criminal genius."  IMO, he's just whinging right now simply 'cause he wants the U.S. Dept of Corrections to flinch and give him wiggle room.  Don't feel sorry for him; that's what he wants.  It's probably part of some plan this guy has up his sleeve.  He's not stupid; very few hardcore crims are.  Doubt me?  Take a tour of any penitentary's museum and see what they use to fashion for weapons and what not, when they're not supposed to have them.  See the exhibits on some of the more spectacular escapes ever made.  They will blow your friggin' mind.

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#25 Tricia

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 09:58 AM

You might not like the conditions in the Supermax prison but these are not nice guys in Supermax...there is a reason why they are in a special prison

Quote

Proponents say that Supermax prisons offer a way to contain prisoners that could otherwise harm or be harmed by the general prison population, especially more infamous individuals who wouldn't function well in a general prison population

So this is for their safety whether they like it or not...unless you'd prefer they are put in the general population....and allowed to slug it/knife it out.  

Some might remember that Jeffery Dahmer, infamous serial killer and cannibal, was one of those high profile prisoners who was murdered by a felllow prisoner...and, despite what he had done to get in prison as heinous as it was, there were people who screamed and yelled because he was killed.

Here's a list of some of the prisoners in the unit in the Colorado Supermax along with Eric Rudolph....

Quote

Theodore Kaczynski, the Unabomber
Charles Harrelson, father of actor Woody Harrelson (assassinated a Federal judge)
Dandeny Muñoz Mosquera, former chief assassin for the Medellín Cartel of Colombia
Lee Boyd Malvo, conspirator in the 2002 Beltway sniper attacks
Terry Nichols, conspirator in the Oklahoma City bombing
Richard Reid, the "shoe bomber"
Eric Robert Rudolph, abortion clinic and 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bomber
Carlos Lehder, Colombian cocaine trafficker, a founding member of the Medellín Cartel
Christopher "Rizler" William Smith "Minnesota spam king"
Zacarias Moussaoui, the alleged "20th hijacker" in the September 11, 2001 attacks. Spared the death penalty when it was determined he was not directly involved in the 9/11 attacks.
Ivan Milat, Australia's worst serial killer. Responsible for the backpacker murders.
Ramzi Yusef, World Trade Center bomber

reads like a who's who of bad guys....and Timothy McVeigh used to reside there also.

Not even sure how Rudolph got these letters out to the paper as I know that the prisons around here (Huntsville TX) actually hire people to read the prisoners mail.

But maybe the prison officials  figure that they have nothing to hide so let him write all he wants.

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#26 Timon

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 10:40 AM

Other than the sensationalism aspect, why would a newspaper bother to give print space to the rantings of a deranged psychotic killer, and why would anyone bother to take them seriously. The minute he put his crayon down he probably went back to covering his head and nether regions in tinfoil.

#27 Tricia

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 11:41 AM

^^^

from the link in the OP

Quote

The newspaper reported in its Sunday editions that it has corresponded by mail with Rudolph for more than a year, and prison officials have refused the paper's request to interview Rudolph.

The Gazette refused Rudolph's request that it publish his writings in their entirety. The newspaper said if it published articles, it would print portions of the letters as long as they were not hate literature or libelous.

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#28 Godeskian

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 01:17 PM

View Posttrikay, on Dec 12 2006, 02:58 PM, said:

Here's a list of some of the prisoners in the unit in the Colorado Supermax along with Eric Rudolph....

Quote

Theodore Kaczynski, the Unabomber
Charles Harrelson, father of actor Woody Harrelson (assassinated a Federal judge)
Dandeny Muñoz Mosquera, former chief assassin for the Medellín Cartel of Colombia
Lee Boyd Malvo, conspirator in the 2002 Beltway sniper attacks
Terry Nichols, conspirator in the Oklahoma City bombing
Richard Reid, the "shoe bomber"
Eric Robert Rudolph, abortion clinic and 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bomber
Carlos Lehder, Colombian cocaine trafficker, a founding member of the Medellín Cartel
Christopher "Rizler" William Smith "Minnesota spam king"
Zacarias Moussaoui, the alleged "20th hijacker" in the September 11, 2001 attacks. Spared the death penalty when it was determined he was not directly involved in the 9/11 attacks.
Ivan Milat, Australia's worst serial killer. Responsible for the backpacker murders.
Ramzi Yusef, World Trade Center bomber


You know, not all of those on that list seem equal.

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#29 Tricia

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 02:34 PM

^^^How so?

You have murderers, terrorists (both American and foreign), drug lords

And remember some are here as a result of their notoriety...and to protect them from other prisoners who might consider it a badge of honor to be the one who kills them.

Lee Boyd Malvo is listed as a conspirator in the Beltway shootings but he has admitted and been convicted of being the one who pulled the trigger in some of the murders.

The only one who I see as being maybe not as bad as the others is Terry Nichols.  He was, from what I remember, more of just a conspirator and not as active a participant.

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#30 G1223

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 03:00 PM

View PostLost Cause, on Dec 12 2006, 09:54 AM, said:

I guess what bothers me about all the commentary that SuperMax is bad, evil, inhuman, etc, is that SuperMax isn't the only kind of prison there is.  

Eric Rudolph landed in SuperMax because should he ever get an opportunity to move about freely in this world he is more than this world could handle.  How long did it take the Feds to find this guy?  Wasn't he living ala Theodore Kazynski [sp?] in the mountains of NC where damned few could find him?  They keep him so damned restricted (and they reserve that kind of prison for only a select few) is that if ever got wiggle room, a few select items, and combined them with all the boredom time he's got, he'd make a break for it.  I guarantee you this guy's creative; any criminal genius of his caliber who could live like a mountain man is a danger 'cause he'd outhink you at ever step.  This guy is the living definition of "criminal genius."  IMO, he's just whinging right now simply 'cause he wants the U.S. Dept of Corrections to flinch and give him wiggle room.  Don't feel sorry for him; that's what he wants.  It's probably part of some plan this guy has up his sleeve.  He's not stupid; very few hardcore crims are.  Doubt me?  Take a tour of any penitentary's museum and see what they use to fashion for weapons and what not, when they're not supposed to have them.  See the exhibits on some of the more spectacular escapes ever made.  They will blow your friggin' mind.

This was the reason he should have been killed. This is the sort of person who if he can get loose will try to kill more people. That he never gets to see the sun except through a set of bars and never get out of his cell causes me discomfort. This man if he goes nuts and offs himself good. If he goes nuts and goes catatonic and never enteracts with the outside world. Good.

If what he is 'suffering' is torture look at his victms some died others were injured and some never recovered. Sorry I do not feel anything but a quiet hope of him suffering till he ends his life.
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#31 GiGi

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 03:43 PM

I am certainly not saying that he be in another prison that isn't as harsh, I have no idea where any of you got that idea.

There is a huge difference between someone having a jolly time and 23 hours a day of solitary confinement.

If that is truly what is happening, the prison needs to be investigated.  That kind of treatment is akin to torture. Yes he is a threat and needs to be somewhere where he cannot escape, but we do have a moral and legal obligation to not use cruel or unusual punishment on prisioners.  To do so puts us all on the same level of evil as those whom we are punishing.

All I am saying is that it wouldn't hurt to look into it, that's all.

Edited by GiGi, 12 December 2006 - 03:45 PM.

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#32 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 03:49 PM

View PostGiGi, on Dec 12 2006, 03:43 PM, said:

I am certainly not saying that he be in another prison that isn't as harsh, I have no idea where any of you got that idea.

There is a huge difference between someone having a jolly time and 23 hours a day of solitary confinement.

If that is truly what is happening, the prison needs to be investigated.  That kind of treatment is akin to torture. Yes he is a threat and needs to be somewhere where he cannot escape, but we do have a moral and legal obligation to not use cruel or unusual punishment on prisioners.  To do so puts us all on the same level of evil as those whom we are punishing.

All I am saying is that it wouldn't hurt to look into it, that's all.

From what I understand, SuperMax prisons, at least according to the documentary reports MSNBC does, usually does the 23 hours a day, one hour rec time...That is nothing new, nor is it cruel and unusual punishment...IMO. It's not like they are thrown in a cell of total darkness. They are in their cell, and only allowed one hour of rec time. I don't see how that is cruel or unusual punishment.

Not when the alternative is to give them hours and hours to work out with wieghts, so that violent criminals come out of the prison stronger, and probably more violent, then when they went in.
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#33 G1223

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 03:51 PM

Supermax is for dangerous criminals who have proven in other prisons to be gang leaders. Of having committed murder in prison. Or are such a flight risk that short of chaining the guy to the bed is a danger.

Yeah sure check it out to prevent someone else from suffering this guy is so beyond being concenred about it is not even funny.
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#34 GiGi

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 03:54 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Dec 12 2006, 12:49 PM, said:

From what I understand, SuperMax prisons, at least according to the documentary reports MSNBC does, usually does the 23 hours a day, one hour rec time...That is nothing new, nor is it cruel and unusual punishment...IMO. It's not like they are thrown in a cell of total darkness. They are in their cell, and only allowed one hour of rec time. I don't see how that is cruel or unusual punishment.

Not when the alternative is to give them hours and hours to work out with wieghts, so that violent criminals come out of the prison stronger, and probably more violent, then when they went in.
Even in a lighted cell, to be by yourself, alone, always is solitary confinement.

I will need to look for some info on the effect of solitary confinement on the psyche and if it would be considered torture.
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#35 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 04:02 PM

View PostGiGi, on Dec 12 2006, 03:54 PM, said:

Even in a lighted cell, to be by yourself, alone, always is solitary confinement.

I will need to look for some info on the effect of solitary confinement on the psyche and if it would be considered torture.

Oh I wasn't implying that it wasn't solitary confinement. But as I understand it, they are allowed books...not sure about TV's. They are allowed magazines, ect. So while it's not ideal, there really isn't any other choice.

Cause if they put these types in General Population, the danger to themselves and others increases drastically. Other inmates would look at them as trophy prizes, and look to kill them to gain status. And they would look at the other inmates as prey, and probably kill or try to kill other inmates for the sheer joy of it.

And that's not to mention those like Rudolph who are very creative, and will find a way to escape.

So why take the risk. Best solution is to keep them seperated.
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#36 G1223

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 04:04 PM

Once again for this guy who cares. This is the reason i wanted him killed. He is a danger to people. That he can go nuts in a 8'x8'x7' cell causes me nothing but a desire to cut corners and hope we can cut the lights.

Torture includes
Sleep depervation. (Including messing with the sleep cycle)
Beatings.
Using drugs without clear medical need.
Loud Noises.
Bright lights.
Too much heat or to cold a cell.

And there are others.
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#37 GiGi

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 04:24 PM

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Dec 12 2006, 01:02 PM, said:

Oh I wasn't implying that it wasn't solitary confinement. But as I understand it, they are allowed books...not sure about TV's. They are allowed magazines, ect. So while it's not ideal, there really isn't any other choice.

Cause if they put these types in General Population, the danger to themselves and others increases drastically. Other inmates would look at them as trophy prizes, and look to kill them to gain status. And they would look at the other inmates as prey, and probably kill or try to kill other inmates for the sheer joy of it.

And that's not to mention those like Rudolph who are very creative, and will find a way to escape.

So why take the risk. Best solution is to keep them seperated.
Solitary confinement goes beyond keeping someone confined where they can't escape and be in society.  I want to be clear on that so we are talking about the same thing.

I found some interesting articles. I will start however with this one from CNN -
http://www.cnn.com/U...ry.confinement/

Quote

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Ramzi Yousef, the man behind the World Trade Center bombing, received one of the longest, harshest sentences in history Thursday, continuing a trend that troubles some human rights activists and corrections experts.

   In fact, it could ultimately prove to be harmful to the very society the punishment is meant to protect.

  Yousef was sentenced to 240 years plus life in solitary confinement Thursday by Judge Kevin T. Duffy. The judge recommended that Yousef be allowed to see only his lawyers and not be allowed to make phone calls, even to his family.

   While many applauded the sentence, David Levin of Prisoners Legal Services objects.

  "It's really death by incarceration. You're really putting someone to a slow, psychological death, and I think that is really cruel and unusual punishment," Levin said.

Quote

A federal prison in Marion, Illinois, was the first of what are called SuperMax, or super-maximum-security, prisons. The concept began in 1983 when, after inmates killed two guards, a prison-wide, 23-hour "lockdown" was ordered that allows inmates one hour out of their cells for solitary exercise.

<snip>
Memory loss, hallucination, craziness
    But doctors who have studied the effect of solitary confinement say it can be harmful on the prisoners.

  Dr. Henry Weinstein, a psychiatrist who has studied prisoners in solitary, says they suffered symptoms ranging from "memory loss to severe anxiety to hallucinations to delusions and, under the severest cases of sensory deprivation, people go crazy."

  Corrections professionals say they need SuperMax facilities as an incentive for good behavior, and that prisoners understand they can earn their way out into the general population.

   But some corrections experts say the trend toward solitary confinement makes their job more dangerous. Such a prisoner, they say, has no reason not to attack, maim or even kill a guard.

G, I can't even respond to your post, as the only thing that goes through my head when I read it is "Abu Ghraib"
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#38 G1223

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 05:38 PM

And I point out that the prisons operated by Saddam that Rov linked back to in 04 which showed men beaten till the skulls deformed. Someof whom were still alive.

Basically GiGi the guy needed to be killed for his crimes and instead we have people so doing backflips for his comfort. It is a sign of a sick Society as Heinlein warned us about.
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#39 GiGi

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 05:54 PM

Not wishing torture on any human being is not the same as doing backflips for their comfort.

But alas some people only see an issue as pure black and pure white.  And that is simply not reality.
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#40 Mark

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 05:55 PM

Mark: Well, I guess rehabilitation is out of the question.  :sarcasm:
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