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Prison Making Him Crazy

Olympics bomber Eric Rudolph Prison Hardships 2006 Crime Terrorism

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#41 G1223

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 06:01 PM

Well Good luck finding reality. I see you view as being just as black and white. You want a system where it's totally humane towards the prisoners. Yet protecting the guards. No one in a Supermax is there for non violent crimes. These men have killed other prisoners, guards or committed such crimes as this is the only place we can put them to be safe. They feel nothing about shanking a guard who might come in to help a prisoner who appears passed out on the floor.

If it means we are safer with this guy in a bug filled pit. I desire to look out for the 299,999,999 other people in the US.

Silly of me to think of them over one dangerous killer.

Edited by G1223, 12 December 2006 - 06:04 PM.

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#42 GiGi

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 06:05 PM

^I am not going to respond to you on this any more.  You are taking what I say so out of context that I don't recognize it. That says to me that you are not reading my words but what you want to see.
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#43 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 06:30 PM

View PostGiGi, on Dec 12 2006, 04:24 PM, said:

Solitary confinement goes beyond keeping someone confined where they can't escape and be in society.  I want to be clear on that so we are talking about the same thing.

OK, we have different concepts of solitary confinement then, apparently. Because going with what you posted above, ANY and ALL prisons meet that criteria. The prison is designed so that the Prisoners can't escape and be in society...going with your defination EVERY prison meets that criteria. And I don't think your position was that there shouldn't be any prisons, for those that break the law.
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#44 GiGi

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 06:41 PM

^ um of course not, I have never, ever thought that!

Solitary confinement means no human contact, (except maybe guards occasionally) period.

High security confinement means extra measures so their is no escape.

One I agree with, the other I don't.
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#45 Bad Wolf

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 06:54 PM

The problem with turning a cheek to the mistreatment of one prisoner is that it sets a precedent for mistreating others.  Yeah I have no sympathy for this terrorist.  But looking at the bigger picture I don't want his case to be impetus for greater injustices.

Also, in America (yes that's right, the great "Free Leader" of the world, that poster child nation for justice, equality and apple pie), we don't forget that prisoners are human.  It's called cruel and unusual to do so and it's a violation of constitutional rights.

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#46 GiGi

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 08:49 PM

THANK YOU LIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brilliantly said!
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#47 Pallas

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 09:24 PM

Quote

Well as to the bill of rights...Sadly we no longer have those, since Bush threw them out the window when he killed Habeus Corpus...But that's something else entirely

And so you want to actually *help* him do this by implicitly condoning such behaviours? I don't get it.

*Sigh* There is no way I can adequately express my point of view here without having it all taken out of context but I will try (and thanks to those who actually understood what I was getting at).

I don't think we should let dangerous offenders out into the streets or treat them like princes but the question here is,how often does this happen? I can practically guarantee you that the prisoners who get special treatment or whatever you think constitutes as special treatment are a minority and only get media attention because this sort of thing is exactly what the media will zoom in on. "OMG, we're treating prisoners like they're KINGS!"

It's the exception, not the norm.

Rehabilitation only works in certain circumstances. I certainly don't recommend it with terrorists or serial killers or people classified as dangerous [repeat] offenders (or pedophiles...I don't even know if that's something you can correct) but in circumstances where you can (I don't know off the top of my head what can be rehabilative...people convicted of manslaughter where the killing was a passion crime and/or accidental?), you should.
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#48 Rhea

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 10:20 PM

View PostGiGi, on Dec 12 2006, 12:54 PM, said:

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Dec 12 2006, 12:49 PM, said:


From what I understand, SuperMax prisons, at least according to the documentary reports MSNBC does, usually does the 23 hours a day, one hour rec time...That is nothing new, nor is it cruel and unusual punishment...IMO. It's not like they are thrown in a cell of total darkness. They are in their cell, and only allowed one hour of rec time. I don't see how that is cruel or unusual punishment.

Not when the alternative is to give them hours and hours to work out with wieghts, so that violent criminals come out of the prison stronger, and probably more violent, then when they went in.
Even in a lighted cell, to be by yourself, alone, always is solitary confinement.

I will need to look for some info on the effect of solitary confinement on the psyche and if it would be considered torture.


I agree with LotS. What would you do with these prisoners, who are in danger from the general prison population? Put them 2 to a room? I don't really see any alternatives for prisoners who are a) so dangerous and b) so in danger from other inmates. I don't consider them mistreated - as far as I'm concerned they are exactly where they belong.

I am, however, asking the question in all seriousness. What would you suggest as an alternative??

Edited by Rhea, 12 December 2006 - 10:22 PM.

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#49 Godeskian

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 11:37 PM

View Posttrikay, on Dec 12 2006, 07:34 PM, said:

^^^How so?

You have murderers, terrorists (both American and foreign), drug lords

Well, let's start with why Australia's worst serial killer is being held in an American jail?

And really, the spam king? this is the kind of person who is so dangerous that he can't be kept in another prisoner?

And the shoebomber? whose sole intelligent thought was to stuff explosives in his shoe and then fail so miserably at setting them off that he really doesn't deserve the title of criminal mastermind.

I don't know, the list just seems a bit odd.

Take the Beltway killer. He killed people. No offense, but the US's prisons are stuffed to the rafters with people who've killed other people, what with guncrime in the US being what it is. Even if you only include people who went down for murder one, it seems odd that Lee Boyd made it all the way to Supermax while all the other murderers don't.

hmm

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#50 Rhea

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 01:29 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Dec 12 2006, 08:37 PM, said:

And the shoebomber? whose sole intelligent thought was to stuff explosives in his shoe and then fail so miserably at setting them off that he really doesn't deserve the title of criminal mastermind.

hmm

The shoe bomber is probably, due to post-9/11 hysteria, in max because he would be in danger in the general prison population. Otherwise, I can't imagine why they'd plop him in max security.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#51 Rhea

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 01:31 AM

View PostKalistria, on Dec 11 2006, 09:16 PM, said:

View PostLORD of the SWORD, on Dec 11 2006, 09:21 PM, said:

View PostBeka's Playgirl, on Dec 11 2006, 06:37 PM, said:

When you read this though, another case comes to mind...some criminals who sued the government because they weren't allowed to take their drugs in prison, claimed it was breaching human rights...and they won!


They actually won? What drugs was the Judge on?

What kind of drugs?

That would make a lot of sense if it were diabetic drugs for instance wherein depriving the prisoner the right to access these drugs could result in death or at least cruel and unusual punishment, which does violate their human rights. Or if they were heavy addicts, making them quit cold-turkey could kill them.

Of course, the prevailing attitude here seems to be that if they're criminals, we should treat them like they're animals. So much for progress.

It's hard to imagine any prison denying prisoners drugs like insulin, anti-psychotics, asthma inhalers,heart medicine, etc. That's just plain stupid. Much easier to put a bullet in the guy's brain than refuse to give him his meds.  :eek4:

Edited by Rhea, 13 December 2006 - 01:32 AM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#52 Tricia

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 09:36 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Dec 12 2006, 10:37 PM, said:

View Posttrikay, on Dec 12 2006, 07:34 PM, said:

^^^How so?

You have murderers, terrorists (both American and foreign), drug lords

Well, let's start with why Australia's worst serial killer is being held in an American jail?

That one is a mystery to me...not sure why he is in a US prison.  Might require some further research

edited to add....just the quick read of his history is making me doubt that this man is really in Supermax in the US.  As recently as 2005 he was questioned about additional murders in Australia at a prison in Australia.

BTW...there is a rumor that his crimes were the basis for a movie called Wolf Creek

Quote

And really, the spam king? this is the kind of person who is so dangerous that he can't be kept in another prisoner?

The spam king being in Supermax might have to do with the fact that he tried to arrange for the murders of several witnesses against him...from his previous prison cell...as well as when he was being tried for his crimes and was in jail.

Not exactly a non-threat.

Quote

And the shoebomber? whose sole intelligent thought was to stuff explosives in his shoe and then fail so miserably at setting them off that he really doesn't deserve the title of criminal mastermind.

That might also be about protecting him from other inmates...and possibly like Rhea said post 9/11 hysteria

Quote

I don't know, the list just seems a bit odd.

Take the Beltway killer. He killed people. No offense, but the US's prisons are stuffed to the rafters with people who've killed other people, what with guncrime in the US being what it is. Even if you only include people who went down for murder one, it seems odd that Lee Boyd made it all the way to Supermax while all the other murderers don't.

hmm

Again. most likely for his own protection from the general prison population...plus I think that he is still testifying against his fellow Beltway killer.  Not sure that they have finished all the trials.

Edited by trikay, 13 December 2006 - 09:57 AM.

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#53 SparkyCola

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 10:50 AM

Quote

All I am saying is that it wouldn't hurt to look into it, that's all.

Absolutely - I'll reiterate my previous point- IF this is a violation of human rights- then it's serious and it needs looking into (see Lil's point) - but no one seems to know one way or the other, and it makes a big difference, because if he's just whining, what's the point?

Quote

Not wishing torture on any human being is not the same as doing backflips for their comfort.

But alas some people only see an issue as pure black and pure white. And that is simply not reality.

Absolutely. And I will repeat what Lil said because I think it's really important:

Quote

The problem with turning a cheek to the mistreatment of one prisoner is that it sets a precedent for mistreating others. Yeah I have no sympathy for this terrorist. But looking at the bigger picture I don't want his case to be impetus for greater injustices.

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#54 Soton

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 12:10 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Dec 12 2006, 11:37 PM, said:

Take the Beltway killer. He killed people. No offense, but the US's prisons are stuffed to the rafters with people who've killed other people, what with guncrime in the US being what it is. Even if you only include people who went down for murder one, it seems odd that Lee Boyd made it all the way to Supermax while all the other murderers don't.

Maybe because he helped terrorize a major metropolitan area for a month.

#55 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 12:13 PM

View PostGiGi, on Dec 12 2006, 06:41 PM, said:

^ um of course not, I have never, ever thought that!

Solitary confinement means no human contact, (except maybe guards occasionally) period.

High security confinement means extra measures so their is no escape.

One I agree with, the other I don't.

Alright, but that isn't what you said before.

To me Solitary confinement means NO human contact, period. Just locked in one room, 24 7, with your food slid through a slot in the door. No human contact, period. Not even with guards. To me that is solitary confinement.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#56 GiGi

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 12:57 PM

^ Sorry if I wasn't clear.  

And having no human contact is a form of torture.

I honestly don't know the solution with dangerous violent people.  I have a friend who works with the prison system by bringing art and music to prisoners.  She has put together a touching video about her experiences.  Basically the high security prison system dehumanizes people to the point of their losing it completely.  While these folks have done awful things, to torture them in these ways diminishes us all.  Better to just kill them and be done with it.

Anyways, I will just say again "what Lil said"
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#57 Broph

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 01:08 PM

View PostRhea, on Dec 13 2006, 06:31 AM, said:

It's hard to imagine any prison denying prisoners drugs like insulin, anti-psychotics, asthma inhalers,heart medicine, etc. That's just plain stupid. Much easier to put a bullet in the guy's brain than refuse to give him his meds.  :eek4:

No, not meds. The prisoners were denied their illegal drugs.

#58 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 01:23 PM

View PostGiGi, on Dec 13 2006, 12:57 PM, said:

^ Sorry if I wasn't clear.  

And having no human contact is a form of torture.

I can agree with that. But that's not what is happening here. They DO have human contact, with the guards. Granted, it's not ideal. But prison, especially Supermax ones are not designed to be ideal. They are designed to house extremely dangerous prisoners safely.

I can't say for sure, cause I honestly don't know. But I was under the impression that even in the Supermax cells they are allowed so many books, magazines, ect. Again, while not ideal, those items would enable the prisoner to escape their cell...briefly, if only in their mind. So it doesn't come across as torture to me.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#59 GiGi

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 01:27 PM

^ I can't say for sure either, that is why I am saying it needs to be researched more.  The CNN article I posted is a start.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#60 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 01:55 AM

^


From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia....ki/ADX_Florence

Quote

About 22% of inmates have killed fellow prisoners in other correctional facilities; 35% have attempted to attack other prisoners or officers. As a result, most individuals are kept for at least 23 hours each day in solitary confinement. They are housed in a 7-by-12 ft (3.5-by-2 m) room, built behind a steel door and grate. The remaining free hour is spent exercising alone in a separate concrete chamber. Prisoners rarely see each other, and the inmates' only direct human interaction is with correctional officers. Visiting from outside the prison is conducted through glass, with each prisoner in a separate chamber. Religious services are broadcast from a small chapel.

Part of the prison is a "stepdown" program, designed to encourage less antisocial behavior and eventually transfer prisoners out of the ADX and back to the Maximum Security population. The program is three years in length, each year allowing more freedom and social contact with other inmates. Any violation during the program means participants revert to year one.

Most cells' furniture is made almost entirely out of poured concrete, including a desk, stool, and bed covered by a thin mattress. Each chamber contains a toilet that shuts off if plugged, a shower that runs on a timer to prevent flooding, and a sink missing a potentially dangerous tap. Rooms may also be fitted with polished steel mirrors bolted to the wall, an electric light, a radio, a 13-inch black and white television set that shows recreational, educational and religious programming[3], and a cigarette lighter. These privileges can be taken away as punishment. The 4-in by 4-ft windows confuse the prisoner as to his specific location within the complex because one can see only the sky and roof. Telecommunication with the outside world is forbidden, and food is hand delivered by correctional officers.

OK, so while the conditions aren't ideal, as I said before. They are allowed a radio and black and white TV. And they do have the step down program.

Sorry, I just don't see this as cruel and unusual, or torture.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson



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