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LGBT Anti-Gay Demonstration Hate 2006

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#21 Omega

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 01:12 PM

Okay.  The Left Behind books are badly written, the concept is nonsense, and I have no idea how there can possibly be a viable game there.  (Based on the reviews, apparently there wasn't.)  But it is NOT "round up the unbelievers and kill them".  In fact, if the storyline of the game matches the books, it's such that another religion is trying to "round up the unbelievers (Christians) and kill them".  From what I understand, violence in the game on the part of Christians is only acceptable if it's in self defense, and even then you lose the game if you kill too many people.  I'm not saying I agree with the message that sends, but it's definitely not the message being claimed.  Please learn about the game before you criticize.  Complain about what's really there.

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I am wary about people using the fear of hell as an impetus to get people to turn to God. Similarly, I'm wary about people using "Ticket to Heaven" as a selling point.

It's been said that faith can be usefully divided into three phases, which are analogous to a child's relationship to his parents (surprise). First, you mow the yard because if you don't, you'll be grounded; do right to avoid punishment. Later, you mow the yard because you're paid to; do right to receive reward. But later, as an adult, you mow the yard because you love your parents and they need it done; do right out of love, punishment and reward no longer being necessary motivations. What happens to me after I die, I'll leave to God. Right now, I have a job to do.

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Funny that, God wants us to have free will, but radicals of any religious stripe want us to give up free will in exchange for slavish obedience to their doctrine

Voluntary obedience is, by definition, an exercise of free will, not its destruction.  Not to say there aren't legitimate complaints against legalistic interpretations, because the Bible is most definitely not the rulebook some people perceive it to be.  But free will and obedience are most certainly in harmony.

#22 Zwolf

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 01:34 PM

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Because "all powerful" is not the same as "grand puppet master who doesn't let people make their own choices". But maybe that's a topic for a different day.

Oh, I understand that... but, even with free will, I don't know why the god doesn't make it clearer what pleases and displeases him.  

Such as, Pat Robertson.  He spreads a lot of hate in the name of his god, and I can understand the god allowing him to do it in the name of free will... but why is it so profitable?   Pat's rolling in money, weilds tons of power, and has made a cottage industry out of it.  He's seemingly being blessed for his mis-use of the beliefs.   Same deal with Jerry Falwell.

And it goes on.  Mel Gibson makes Passion of the Christ.  I don't think that's evil, necessarily (although the depiction of the Jews and Mel's motivation is questionable), but - at least to my thinking - it misses what was most important about Christ; his teachings, etc., and boils the whole thing down to snuff-porn.   This thing was a money machine.  They were even selling some of the most crass merchandise possible - sterling silver crucifiction nail pendants?  And crowns of thorns?   I know it's not my place to say, but...  I don't think the fella who booted moneylenders out of the temple would be too thrilled with that stuff.  

Sure, they have the free will to do this... but, if it was my name they were doing it in, and I had the ways and means to manipulate all the forces in the universe, I'd find a way to make it not turn a profit.

I'm not trying to put any believers on the spot here, or offend anybody (and if I am, please say so and I'll apologize and back out of the thread right now - I know this is a touchy thing and I'm sincerely not trying to step on toes), but it's difficult for me to see these gods as gods when they don't seem to have as much brand-name-control as Disney does...  

I'll pick on Allah for a second.  The Middle East was the birthplace of civilization.  For centuries it was the most advanced place on the planet; they developed almost everything before anyone else.  Given a massive head-start like that, it, by rights, should still be one of the most advanced places on Earth... but instead it's become one of the most backward.   And that happened around the time that Islam became prevalent.   Their religion has brought them ignorance, nonstop wars, persecution, and held them back... but they persist in thanking Allah.  

There's a lot of wisdom in the Koran, it's one of the world's great books, along with the Bible... it should be a good thing and a positive force, and I know that in many ways it is.  A lot of people get a lot of good from it, even though the terrorists seem to get all the headlines, the Christianity's terrorists like Fred Phelps get an unfair share of the headlines, too.  It just seems strange that a proud god like Allah would allow himself that kind of track record.   He wouldn't have to do away with free will to get himself better results.  

If I had a kid, I could let him do what he wanted... but I could also make it clear to him when I wasn't pleased with his choices, even if I didn't stop him from making them.

Like Drew said, maybe it'll all sort itself out in the end.  For now, though, it's kinda hard to figure... at least, for me.

Cheers,

Zwolf
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#23 DWF

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 02:19 PM

I think the key to belief in God is listening to what God tells you not some middle man and not somebody asking for money or material goods to make you closer to God, as long as you maintain your own faith what somebody else does or doesn't do isn't that important, because in the end it's what you do and did that matters.
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#24 BklnScott

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 02:47 PM

Somebody who was there saw this post on my blog and left a comment indicating there will be pictures -- "shocking pictures" -- later this week.  Maybe then this will get the kind of attention it deserves.

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#25 Drew

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 03:03 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Dec 19 2006, 01:47 PM, said:

Maybe then this will get the kind of attention it deserves.

What kind of attention does it deserve? That is, what do you want the end result to be?
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#26 BklnScott

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 03:38 PM

I think the incident deserves national attention, as it so perfectly captures the tenor of the anti-gay marriage movement.

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#27 Drew

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 03:58 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Dec 19 2006, 02:38 PM, said:

I think the incident deserves national attention, as it so perfectly captures the tenor of the anti-gay marriage movement.

Hmmm. Well, it captures the tenor of one rally perfectly, . . .

But again, what would "national attention" do except cause more tempers to rise?

Edited by Drew, 19 December 2006 - 03:59 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#28 BklnScott

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 04:18 PM

I follow this issue pretty closely, and in my -- admittedly subjective -- opinion -- the only thing atypical about this rally is that the ring-leader actually (ETA: physically) attacked someone on the other side of the issue.  So national exposure would paint an accurate picture of the irrational panic that accompanies attempts to extend equal treatment under the law to gay couples: "Heaven will not be heaven if our children are not there with us."  

These people are actually arguing that the sky will fall if people like me have our relationships recognized by the government.  That's rather telling.

Edited by ScottEVill, 19 December 2006 - 06:59 PM.

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#29 Drew

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 04:31 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Dec 19 2006, 03:18 PM, said:

These people are actually arguing that the sky will fall if people like me have our relationships recognized by the government.  That's rather telling.

Certainly these people are being quite ridiculous with such a statement, but I guess I would argue that the people at this rally are atypical, and the majority of people who are against gay marriage are reasonable and non-violent. It does both "sides" a disservice to paint those who hold an opposing view as somehow crazy and unreasonable.

So yes, be upset at this incident and for good reason, but don't hold it up as an example of how all those who disagree with you behave. That makes you as low as those you oppose you. Instead, respond to the unreasonable with reasonable behavior, because always makes them more unreasonable.
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#30 BklnScott

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 04:43 PM

Can you provide links to examples of rallies where the anti-gay marriage discourse is -- as you say -- "reasonable?"  'Cause I could provide dozens of links to large, well-funded groups whose leaders say things quite similar to, "Heaven won't be heaven" if the government recognizes gay marriage.  

I guess I can't imagine how someone could term the attempt to legislate the articles of one's faith into the secular legal code--which has to work for us all, regardless of faith-- as "reasonable."  This is, by definition, UNreasonable.

Edited by ScottEVill, 19 December 2006 - 04:44 PM.

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#31 Spectacles

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 04:46 PM

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Drew: I think God is quite concerned with the here and now, and wants believers to act as God's hands to a hurting world. And I think God is pretty pissed off when instead of helping heal the hurt, they add to it. But . . . free will again.

Wow. Interesting...that's almost word for word what occured to me a couple of weeks ago when I was thinking of my deeply spiritual and totally non-preachy grandmother's philosophy, which she lived most admirably. :) As I was telling friends, she thought that it would be arrogant to "save" someone's soul, figuring that what happened between God and the souls of others was their business. But she nonjudgmentally served anyone in her rural community who needed food, herbal cures, letters read, midwiving. I said the other day that I wished more of today's Christians saw spirituality the way that Grandmother did.

Fortunately, I think that the louder the sanctimonious, be-just-like-me-or-go-to-hell crowd gets, it seems there is a growing chorus of more Jesus-centered Christians who are piping up. I very much appreciate it.

Edited by Spectacles, 19 December 2006 - 04:47 PM.

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#32 Drew

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 04:58 PM

View PostScottEVill, on Dec 19 2006, 03:43 PM, said:

Can you provide links to examples of rallies where the anti-gay marriage discourse is -- as you say -- "reasonable?"

I don't think the reasonable ones hold rallies. Rallies are, by nature, loud boisterous affairs and not the sort of setting where one looks to open a dialogue.

Edited by Drew, 19 December 2006 - 05:00 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#33 BklnScott

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 05:06 PM

Amended: Can you provide links to any examples of rallies where the anti-gay marriage discourse is -- as you say -- "reasonable?"  As I said, seeking to legislate the articles of one's faith into the law that has to govern us all is, by definition, unreasonable.

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#34 Drew

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 05:25 PM

Okay, give me some time to check some of my usual sources. I don't know how thoroughly that's been covered. I am looking into whether it's ever been touched on by the Burnside Writers Collective. So far all I've found is this, which I must warn you has a scary picture of Ted Haggard accompanying it.

But these are Christians concerned with social justice issues, and if they haven't touched on the issue of gay marriage somewhere, I would be surprised.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#35 Bad Wolf

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 06:13 PM

View PostZwolf, on Dec 19 2006, 10:34 AM, said:

Oh, I understand that... but, even with free will, I don't know why the god doesn't make it clearer what pleases and displeases him.

Well I kinda think that God has made it clear what displeases him (her, it, whatever).  Killing for example is not generally looked well upon by most religions.  If you want to talk about Catholics you can look at the Seven Deadly Sins and that pretty much covers it.  It's that some people have a genius for rationalizing just about anything.  Killing in the name of God.  Assault in the name of God.  Hate in the name of God.  War in the name of God.  Persecution in the name of God.  Bigotry in the name of God.  IMO if God were a punishing sort of being then all these jokers would be struck down but I don't think God is that way.  And the crux of the difference between God in relation to me as opposed to a parent in relation to a child is that in the latter instance both parties are human and it's a fair bet that at some point the kid will have a chance of understanding the parent's "plan."  With God I know I can't know his/her/its plan.  But I have too much evidence of God in my life for me to doubt that there *is* a plan and, at least on good days, I'm willing to accept that, much as I might like it, I don't and don't need to know what that plan is, let alone understand it.

IMO of course.

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#36 Jid

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 06:58 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Dec 19 2006, 11:30 AM, said:

Speaking as an atheist, I've always wondered if the world would have been any different had those two been reversed in importance.
Personally, I've always wondered what would happen if more people who profess to be Christians really sat down and thought about who their 'neighbours' are, and what it really means to 'love them as yourself'.

(Or, for that matter, what it really means for Jesus to have said that all the law and the prophets hang on those two commandments.)
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#37 BklnScott

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 07:15 PM

View PostDrew, on Dec 19 2006, 05:25 PM, said:

Okay, give me some time to check some of my usual sources. I don't know how thoroughly that's been covered. I am looking into whether it's ever been touched on by the Burnside Writers Collective. So far all I've found is this, which I must warn you has a scary picture of Ted Haggard accompanying it.

Interesting essay, thanks for linking it, and I'll look forward to more.  

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And so, maybe we need to downgrade the taboo on some aspects of sexuality a littleŚno, seriously. Not erase it, exactly, just qualify it so as to give those struggling with issues of sexuality the option of basic human self-acceptance.
  Wow--Really?  You think she'd be willing to do that... for lil ol' me?  

Here's my problem with her: she's looking for the compromise position--and quite genuinely, it seems--but there is no compromising with people who think you are "abomination."  She's saying to one side, "we're gonna be more welcoming," and to the other, "but not that welcoming."  Sorry.  Untennable.  

She's setting herself up to get crushed -- by both sides.  (Do you watch Studio 60?  One of the characters got in almost exactly this bind -- with exactly the same result.)  

Most issues are nuanced, but this one is not.  There is clear-cut right, and clear-cut wrong here -- and eventually, that will be universally recognized.  Incidents like the one in Boston will hasten that eventuality.

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#38 tennyson

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 04:13 PM

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I like Jesus as a philosopher, I think he's one of the greats, but things like this are why I couldn't buy him as a god, even if I believed in gods. Same for Mohammed. There's just too much bad mixed in there with the good... although I admit the good is plentiful, too.

Mohammed isn't god or a god in Islam. Even making such an assertion would be blasphemy of the highest order to every grouping of Islam. Mohammed is the "seal of the prophets" in mainline Islam, the last of a long line of prophets who have tried to bring the message of god to humanity. He was simply the very human mouthpiece for a higher being, not anything divine in and of himself.
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#39 sierraleone

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 09:12 AM

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39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

View PostJid, on Dec 19 2006, 06:58 PM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Dec 19 2006, 11:30 AM, said:

Speaking as an atheist, I've always wondered if the world would have been any different had those two been reversed in importance.
Personally, I've always wondered what would happen if more people who profess to be Christians really sat down and thought about who their 'neighbours' are, and what it really means to 'love them as yourself'.

(Or, for that matter, what it really means for Jesus to have said that all the law and the prophets hang on those two commandments.)

While I would hope it would lessen it, but I know some would still twist it and say, I do love them, and I show that by trying to make sure they see the light and go to heaven instead of hell!  :rolleyes:
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#40 Kosh

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 09:34 AM

View PostDrew, on Dec 19 2006, 03:03 PM, said:

View PostScottEVill, on Dec 19 2006, 01:47 PM, said:

Maybe then this will get the kind of attention it deserves.

What kind of attention does it deserve? That is, what do you want the end result to be?



I think the best result would be for folks to recognize that marriges, and Civil Unions are the same thing, only a matter of simanctics, and we should get over it and move on to more important things like the environment and medical care that is afordable, Getting our army home...
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